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Resort(s) Bailout or Resorts LLC

Thank you ever so much for your post. We are very concerned about these LLC companies. We have several owners that have fallen for these deceptive scams and have notified all our owners of this "Fraud Alert".
This is an imperative situation that needs to be addressed as soon as possiable. It effects our owners and the resort in a very difficult way; The owners are out a lot of money and the resorts do not have their weeks in due paying hands. Any comments are greatly appreciated.

Some state AG's have gotten into the act and cracked some PCC heads, so far only on the civil side, but with fines and penalties. I would like to see some criminal prosecutions for the felony of false pretenses.

When the postcards go out, it would be good for HOA's to send in some ringers to the meetings wired for sound and then take the result to the state Real Estate Commission, the state AG consumer protection division, etc. and try to get some action.
 
PCCs Next Step

I actually had a well known post card scammer contact me and offer to sell me back our own delinquent weeks. His exact quote was "I know it's too expensive to foreclose on me so I'll make you a deal and sell them to you for ....". Sounds pretty close to blackmail to me. He was sent to our collections agency once, but they won't even take the account because he owns hundreds of weeks and owes hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in maintenance fees to resorts across the country. So now I'm stuck with three years of lost maintenance fees on each of these weeks, no chance of reselling them and increasing overhead costs. This guy scammed the system by having someone pay him to take the week, abandoned all responsibility of ownership and now makes more money by coercing resorts to buy back their own non-paying weeks at a premium. Now who still believes in the PCC business model??
 
I actually had a well known post card scammer contact me and offer to sell me back our own delinquent weeks. His exact quote was "I know it's too expensive to foreclose on me so I'll make you a deal and sell them to you for ....". Sounds pretty close to blackmail to me. He was sent to our collections agency once, but they won't even take the account because he owns hundreds of weeks and owes hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in maintenance fees to resorts across the country. So now I'm stuck with three years of lost maintenance fees on each of these weeks, no chance of reselling them and increasing overhead costs. This guy scammed the system by having someone pay him to take the week, abandoned all responsibility of ownership and now makes more money by coercing resorts to buy back their own non-paying weeks at a premium. Now who still believes in the PCC business model??

I do not believe in THAT incarnation of the PCC business model, for sure.
 
Clarify Something for me please

Let me try to understand:
1. If you buy a timeshare you are responsible for maintenance fees and special assessments forever, (for the benefit of other owners) if:
A. There is no market for the week you own.
B. The resort or resort owners associations don't want it, and will not agree to allowing a deed back.
C. If you just stop paying the fees, they turn you into a collection agency and report you to credit bureaus to try to ruin your credit.
D. You don't use the timeshare week and charitable institution will not accept it as a donation.

Is it the position of TUG that this is an acceptable state of affairs?
 
RE: See it for yourself

Now I don't know if this is an individual trust, a PCC or a "Viking Ship" operation but take a look at this registration mess for the "Z Land Trust" (Inactive) which is at least trying to register a number of ownerships into the trust.

Now does it appear that they are trying to hide things to you? What a mess.

Here is the expanded "tree" view. Still think it's legitimate?

Talk about perfect timing. I won't say which one, but my guy is one of those listed in the "tree view".
 
I actually had a well known post card scammer contact me and offer to sell me back our own delinquent weeks. His exact quote was "I know it's too expensive to foreclose on me so I'll make you a deal and sell them to you for ....". Sounds pretty close to blackmail to me. He was sent to our collections agency once, but they won't even take the account because he owns hundreds of weeks and owes hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in maintenance fees to resorts across the country. So now I'm stuck with three years of lost maintenance fees on each of these weeks, no chance of reselling them and increasing overhead costs. This guy scammed the system by having someone pay him to take the week, abandoned all responsibility of ownership and now makes more money by coercing resorts to buy back their own non-paying weeks at a premium. Now who still believes in the PCC business model??

I know this happens with the PCC's, and what they really should do is just deed them back, before three years of fees are past due. It does seem like blackmail. Involves money, and the company actually tells you why it's better for you in the long run. It's despicable.

But resorts should also take deeds back from owners who want out and have been responsible. It's too bad it is so hard for a resort to sell these weeks after taking them back.
 
I actually had a well known post card scammer contact me and offer to sell me back our own delinquent weeks. His exact quote was "I know it's too expensive to foreclose on me so I'll make you a deal and sell them to you for ....". Sounds pretty close to blackmail to me. He was sent to our collections agency once, but they won't even take the account because he owns hundreds of weeks and owes hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in maintenance fees to resorts across the country. So now I'm stuck with three years of lost maintenance fees on each of these weeks, no chance of reselling them and increasing overhead costs. This guy scammed the system by having someone pay him to take the week, abandoned all responsibility of ownership and now makes more money by coercing resorts to buy back their own non-paying weeks at a premium. Now who still believes in the PCC business model??

and that all could have been avoided if your resort took deed backs...The term "necessary evil" comes to mind
 
I actually had a well known post card scammer contact me and offer to sell me back our own delinquent weeks. His exact quote was "I know it's too expensive to foreclose on me so I'll make you a deal and sell them to you for ....". Sounds pretty close to blackmail to me. He was sent to our collections agency once, but they won't even take the account because he owns hundreds of weeks and owes hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in maintenance fees to resorts across the country. So now I'm stuck with three years of lost maintenance fees on each of these weeks, no chance of reselling them and increasing overhead costs. This guy scammed the system by having someone pay him to take the week, abandoned all responsibility of ownership and now makes more money by coercing resorts to buy back their own non-paying weeks at a premium. Now who still believes in the PCC business model??

You need to fire your HOA board. It is 100% their fault. All they needed to do to prevent this from happening is send out a letter to all owners saying that you will take deedbacks for any owners if they pay the transfer fee and 2 years worth of maintenance fees.

Since your board failed to act, it is 100% on them.
 
Let me try to understand:
1. If you buy a timeshare you are responsible for maintenance fees and special assessments forever, (for the benefit of other owners) if:
A. There is no market for the week you own.
B. The resort or resort owners associations don't want it, and will not agree to allowing a deed back.
C. If you just stop paying the fees, they turn you into a collection agency and report you to credit bureaus to try to ruin your credit.
D. You don't use the timeshare week and charitable institution will not accept it as a donation.

Is it the position of TUG that this is an acceptable state of affairs?

Yes, it is the position of TUG that once you own a timeshare, you own the maintenance fee liability forever until you can find someone who will agree to take on that perpetual liability.

I believe it is the wrong policy. I believe that states should make it mandatory for HOAs to take deedbacks for some nominal fee not to exceed a reasonable transfer fee plus 2 years maintenance fees.
 
Let me try to understand:
1. If you buy a timeshare you are responsible for maintenance fees and special assessments forever, (for the benefit of other owners) if:
A. There is no market for the week you own.
B. The resort or resort owners associations don't want it, and will not agree to allowing a deed back.
C. If you just stop paying the fees, they turn you into a collection agency and report you to credit bureaus to try to ruin your credit.
D. You don't use the timeshare week and charitable institution will not accept it as a donation.

Is it the position of TUG that this is an acceptable state of affairs?

Yes, you did sign on the dotted line.

So that's how I feel, but I also think it's great for resorts to take back weeks, if they have a way to find owners to take them. Ultimately, some resorts aren't worth anything as a timeshare anymore. These resorts no longer compete with the amenities and resort quality that other resorts provide.

I know of a few 30-year-old resorts that need extensive remodeling and furnishings, and owners have deeded back so many weeks (the resort allowed it), that the owners who remain will have quite a responsibilty in repairing the resort to make it desirable, even for prime weeks. Prime week owners are all that remain.

The underlying real estate value of these resorts is astounding, compared to the value of the resort by the week X 52. One resort would easily sell as a whole per unit for $500K, because it's in Summit County, and the units are very large and are more like houses.
 
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You need to fire your HOA board. It is 100% their fault. All they needed to do to prevent this from happening is send out a letter to all owners saying that you will take deedbacks for any owners if they pay the transfer fee and 2 years worth of maintenance fees.

Since your board failed to act, it is 100% on them.

With all due respect, that is waaaay over the top. In fact, we do accept deedbacks and every owner has been notified many many times. Our board did act, but it cannot force adult owners to act nor can they restrict who an owner freely chooses to transfer or sell their week to. As I've said before, people don't always do what is in their own best interest even with full knowledge and warnings (think smoking, drinking and driving, etc...)

In reality, many times the owners transfer their weeks to the PCCs without the HOA's knowledge. How is that the fault of the HOA? Just last week I was contacted by a PCC regarding some owner information they needed to complete a transaction. I stalled a few days and tried repeatedly to contact the owner to offer to take their week back for FREE. They were sent a certified letter stating that I would take the week for free, yet I still have not received any response. In the end, the PCC has the power of attorney to close the transfer, the owner has indicated that it is their intention and desire to complete the transfer and I have no legal right to stop the transfer. What justification do you see for firing anyone?
 
You need to fire your HOA board. It is 100% their fault. All they needed to do to prevent this from happening is send out a letter to all owners saying that you will take deedbacks for any owners if they pay the transfer fee and 2 years worth of maintenance fees.

Since your board failed to act, it is 100% on them.

You think an announcement is a good way to do this? I don't think so, but it depends on the resort. Cypress Pointe, that would be fine because there is a resale value to those units, so there is hope of selling them. They also have a management company, VRI, who can sell units, if they are so inclined. However, most older resorts are managed by local companies who cannot sell. They have no means to do it. They just hope the owners can get someone to take over the week, like a relative or a friend. It works much of the time.

The PCC's are actually damaging to resorts. Not only do they say the resorts are going to have SA's and increasing fees every year, but they also say it's impossible to get a trade (not true), and your heirs will curse you in your grave for leaving them the burden (also not necessarily true).

They have hurt timeshare more than they have helped. I cannot even think of any way they have helped, except I have gotten some bargain weeks.

Geez, as though timeshare needed anymore counts against it. It's sold with high pressure to start, and people almost always regret their purchases after the rescission period. Then the PCC's finish them off with their bad stories. It's not healthy for timeshare to have these companies, or the upfront-fee companies.
 
Yes, it is the position of TUG that once you own a timeshare, you own the maintenance fee liability forever until you can find someone who will agree to take on that perpetual liability.

I believe it is the wrong policy. I believe that states should make it mandatory for HOAs to take deedbacks for some nominal fee not to exceed a reasonable transfer fee plus 2 years maintenance fees.

I know we've been over this before but if you use that idea then show me where it says in my agreement to buy that I must accept the fees and pay them if "the other buyers decide they no longer want what they freely purchased"? Yes, IF it is legally foreclosed after every effort possible was made per the law and all collection efforts - and corresponding penalties/reports to the various credit agencies made - then the other owners are legally required to pick up the cost. But if those efforts aren't made - as in "we take back all ownerships on request" then the paying owners have a legal suit they will win against the Board, management and Association. It simply isn't a legal option no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom.

We need to concentrate on the reasons owners CAN'T sell or give it away - if that is truly the case, it all too often is just laziness and the want of an easy way out, and fix those issues. Simply taking it back on demand would never solve the problem but make it far worse. I have to totally disagree with your belief that it is an answer.

I have seen resorts with poor value time make the moves to increase value and improve demand. Virtually any resort could - but it too will cost money. Better to do that than continue with an unsustainable model or one that eventually will lead to the collapse of the resort as anyone can (and would) simply give up their time if they tire of it. Never a workable answer.
 
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John, it's so different being on a board and having the responsibility to the owners who pay on time and want to see the resort stay afloat. It's in everyone's best interest for the resort to be financially stable. I know exactly how you feel, because this is how I feel about my own resorts.

When you have lists of people who aren't paying fees, or unowned weeks that aren't desirable for resale, and you know those non-paying weeks are just going to cost everyone more money, it's not just hit home, it's getting you where you live. You are the board, and your responsibility is to those owners who love the property.

Unless you see it from the other side, it's pretty hard to be judgmental of an HOA board who loves the resort and wants to act on behalf of its success, not its demise.
 
We need to concentrate on the reasons owners CAN'T sell or give it away -

**EDITED***

I have seen resorts with poor value time make the moves to increase value and improve demand. Virtually any resort could - but it too will cost money. Better to do that than continue with an unsustainable model or one that eventually will lead to the collapse of the resort as anyone can (and would) simply give up their time if they tire of it. Never a workable answer.

people can't sell because the RESORT has no value...If the HOA's, BOD's, Scum, worked towards increasing value, people wouldn't NEED pcc's and they would go out of business, if the HOA, BOD, scum, decide not to, the resort will eventually close because everyone will sell to a PCC

Survival of the fittest...
 
people can't sell because the RESORT has no value...If the HOA's, BOD's, Scum, worked towards increasing value, people wouldn't NEED pcc's and they would go out of business, if the HOA, BOD, scum, decide not to, the resort will eventually close because everyone will sell to a PCC

Survival of the fittest...

Ride - Do you realize that the previous two poster's in this thread, both long-time TUG members, are members of their boards? Are they scum?

Lately your posts have been just one troll after another. Get a grip. It's not cute, it's not funny, and it's going to get you suspended from TUG.

Be Courteous
As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!
 
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Ride's post is so offensive.

Until you have walked in another's shoes, don't go around saying how comfy they are. You haven't a clue the responsibility most of the timeshare BOD's feel toward owners.

Consolidated management stacks its board with employees, and there is no accountability. It's the same with Wyndham and Starwood, which you own yourself, so maybe you are talking about those folks.

Even though I am personally upset by the increased fees at SBP, I do know that Starwood is trying to provide quality units, and that means upgrades that cost us all a premium right now. So why is it that there are so many SBP on eBay? The PCC's told those SBP owners how their fees will go up constantly, there will be SA's, and the value of the resort is $0. Just look at the eBay listings....

Yet you took a free week at SBP? Why? The fees were $680 for a 2 bed at SBP just four years ago. That should have scared you off. Maybe you need to attend a PCC meeting and pay $3,500 to have them list it on eBay for $0.
 
Ride's post is so offensive.

Until you have walked in another's shoes, don't go around saying how comfy they are.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1196893&postcount=7

Timeshare salespeople are scum. Developers are scum, too. Upfront fee companies are scum, too. It's a dirty, rotten industry, with liars and schemers who lack consciences. Seriously. If they had consciences, they couldn't sleep at night. Jiminy Cricket is not there, when they sleep on their mattresses stuffed with money.

So i'm the bad one, because i added one more corrupt organization/association to your list? The thing is, if the POA/BOD/HOA are adding to the MF's but NOT improving on the resort, they are the MAIN reason the resort will end up going out of business, IMO this puts them on the same level as the PCC's, maybe even lower, the PCC's just point out the mistakes, the HOA/POA/BOD actually make them

I believe the same way you do, if the HOA/POA/BOD had a conscience they wouldn't be able to sleep at night because of what they are doing to their fellow owners
 
Ride :I am with you 100% AndI have been saying the same thing for a long time.(look at the number of my posts)
The posters Denise is defending are probably Prime weeks owners, pontificating for their own enlightened self interest.
Denise does not defend me(or you) when I get called names.
ps. If they ban us we can over and post on ts4ms.
pps. They missed you when you were gone for a while. g.etting called a troll should be (is)a badge of honor
 
So i'm the bad one, because i added one more corrupt organization/association to your list? The thing is, if the POA/BOD/HOA are adding to the MF's but NOT improving on the resort, they are the MAIN reason the resort will end up going out of business, IMO this puts them on the same level as the PCC's, maybe even lower, the PCC's just point out the mistakes, the HOA/POA/BOD actually make them

I believe the same way you do, if the HOA/POA/BOD had a conscience they wouldn't be able to sleep at night because of what they are doing to their fellow owners

You bought ($0 cost, I realize) into two systems that have corrupt management with stacked boards of directors. That Starwood SBP MF used to be $680, and it's now over $1,100. Wyndham is a developer and has itself as management. It's pretty sleazy, I agree, but please separate those from owner-controlled HOA's with fair elections of board members, which include no developers, and no management company members.

There is a difference, and you lump everyone into one category. It's not fair, and it's very prejudicial. Yes, it truly is.

Until you join a BOD and have people call you personally at your home to say they cannot afford their annual $500 MF's for a 3 bedroom unit (our fees are very low in Colorado at the owner-controlled resorts), then you shouldn't put us into the category of Starwood, Consolidated, Wyndham, and all of the others out there who have no stake in the resort, except as paid employees, in the pocket of the developer.

e.bram's posts are not worth reading, but yours are, Ride, because I think you are being the devil's advocate, and I understand and agree with some of what you say. Developers and their management companies don't care about owners.

I respect your right to say what you want, too, but that post about scummy developers, salespeople, PCC's, upfront fee companies, etc., was directed to those who profit from timeshares, and I have only had a few meals in my tenure as a board member. I don't even get reimbursed for mileage, although I am entitled to it. I drive 60+ miles to/ from meetings, and I pick my fellow board members up at the airport, too, and drive them. Zero reimbursement. I do get pizza, but I have to leave my business phone to the answering machine in my absence, so we lose customers in my absence (it's a chimney cleaning biz).
 
You bought ($0 cost, I realize) into two systems that have corrupt management with stacked boards of directors. That Starwood SBP MF used to be $680, and it's now over $1,100. Wyndham is a developer and has itself as management. It's pretty sleazy, I agree, but please separate those from owner-controlled HOA's with fair elections of board members, which include no developers, and no management company members.

There is a difference, and you lump everyone into one category. It's not fair, and it's very prejudicial. Yes, it truly is.

Until you join a BOD and have people call you personally at your home to say they cannot afford their annual $500 MF's for a 3 bedroom unit (our fees are very low in Colorado at the owner-controlled resorts), then you shouldn't put us into the category of Starwood, Consolidated, Wyndham, and all of the others out there who have no stake in the resort, except as paid employees, in the pocket of the developer.

e.bram's posts are not worth reading, but yours are, Ride, because I think you are being the devil's advocate, and I understand and agree with some of what you say. Developers and their management companies don't care about owners.

I respect your right to say what you want, too, but that post about scummy developers, salespeople, PCC's, upfront fee companies, etc., was directed to those who profit from timeshares, and I have only had a few meals in my tenure as a board member. I don't even get reimbursed for mileage, although I am entitled to it. I drive 60+ miles to/ from meetings, and I pick my fellow board members up at the airport, too, and drive them. Zero reimbursement. I do get pizza, but I have to leave my business phone to the answering machine in my absence, so we lose customers in my absence (it's a chimney cleaning biz).

I wonder if members of an HOA/POA/BOD did get paid, if more WOULD get accomplished? Right now, we can figuratively separate places like Wyndham and Starwood from member controlled boards and call the developer places evil, but in the end...Do we REALLY see any difference in how they are run?

Honestly, some of the nicest resorts out there...the ones holding their resale values ARE the developer controlled...look at the Marriotts, starwoods, heck, look at the top ten list at Tug...these places have the best amenities

here's how i see it....the developer controlled resorts are in it just for the money, their profit depends on people wanting to come back every year...i'm not a fan of that, but it works....the member controlled resorts their stake is in...their vacation, not quite to the level of the developer controlled resorts...i think this is why we see such a difference in quality of resorts...I'm not a fan of people being motivated by money, i'm also not a fan of unqualified people doing as little work as they possibly can
 
Honestly, some of the nicest resorts out there...the ones holding their resale values ARE the developer controlled...look at the Marriotts, starwoods, heck, look at the top ten list at Tug...these places have the best amenities

Ride - you don't know what you are talking about. The only Starwood resorts that have any resale value are the 5 mandatory resorts, and a few high season weeks here and there. The majority of the Starwood resorts are selling for $1. Remember - that's how you got your free TS? The fact that some have resale value has nothing to do with the resort, and everything to do with the fact that resales at these 5 resorts have Staroptions.

Proof - the SW Maui Resorts still sell for $5K - $20K.
The newer Princeville Resort - good luck giving it away - NO STAROPTIONS.

Starwood has beautiful resorts with great amenities like SVR, which has just been completely renovated & redecorated. According to your theory, the BOD has just upgraded the resort and made it a fabulous place, and it should be selling like hotcakes. It's not - it's still selling for $1!
 
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I know we've been over this before but if you use that idea then show me where it says in my agreement to buy that I must accept the fees and pay them if "the other buyers decide they no longer want what they freely purchased"? Yes, IF it is legally foreclosed after every effort possible was made per the law and all collection efforts - and corresponding penalties/reports to the various credit agencies made - then the other owners are legally required to pick up the cost. But if those efforts aren't made - as in "we take back all ownerships on request" then the paying owners have a legal suit they will win against the Board, management and Association. It simply isn't a legal option no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom.

We need to concentrate on the reasons owners CAN'T sell or give it away - if that is truly the case, it all too often is just laziness and the want of an easy way out, and fix those issues. Simply taking it back on demand would never solve the problem but make it far worse. I have to totally disagree with your belief that it is an answer.

I have seen resorts with poor value time make the moves to increase value and improve demand. Virtually any resort could - but it too will cost money. Better to do that than continue with an unsustainable model or one that eventually will lead to the collapse of the resort as anyone can (and would) simply give up their time if they tire of it. Never a workable answer.

My premise is simple. If the resort is worthless, then the timeshare plan should be terminated. If the owners refuse to terminate the timeshare plan, then they deserve the increased maintenance fees and reserves.

A timeshare ownership should not be a life sentence. If the HOAs won't take action, then PCCs are the right business model to support owners who want out.

It is the fiduciary responsibility of the HOA board to ensure that there is a market for their timeshare units. If there isn't one, they should recommend termination of the timeshare plan. It's really as simple as that. You don't have any argument that trumps this notion. The HOA board is not serving its members well if the timeshare units are worthless and there is another higher and better use of the property on the open market.
 
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