You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[davidvel]

I have dealt with home owners claims for decades and the one thing that is common is insurance adjusters go though a process of qualifying your claim before the claim is approved or denied. An example would be water damage from a pipe. If the pipe was considered a slow leak instead of a sudden burst, the claim could be disqualified because this leak was considered an unresolved maintenance issue which was preventable. The disqualification leads to the final action of denial of claim.

With a vehicle fire , ice or EV, many claims are disqualified because the fire was preventable rather than accidental. In the case of a Chevy Bolt where the owner was given notice of a potential battery fire and to park 50ft away from any building, and the owner is known to received the notice, the disqualification of this claim could be deemed a preventable act which would end in a denial of the claim.

A person would need to discuss this type of coverage with their insurance provider. The exclusions of the policy will determine what is paid and the limits will determine how much is paid. Even then, the insurance adjuster, who works for the insurance company to reduce claims, can subjectively decide the insurance will pay for this, but not that, even when to achieve this, requires that.

So yes, some vehicle fires will not be covered under a home owners or comprehensive auto policy.

Bill

Your experience aside, you are wrong again. A slow leak would not be excluded because of a lack of maintenance (If you disagree show the policy language in a HO-form policy that says otherwise.) It may be excluded because the policy requires an occurrence, or a specific exclusion for ongoing leaks.

Either way, this has nothing to do with an exclusion for EV vehicle fires, which does not exist.

 

[emeryjre]

Good friends of my niece lost their 5 bedroom home 4 months ago
Devastating fire
Whole home ablaze in less than 10 minutes
Nobody was injured by the grace of god
Everybody got out
Report of the cause was returned last week
2022 Ford F150 had a short somewhere under the hood and ignited gasoline
Fuel was under pressure and sprayed around the garage and acted as an accelerant
Talked with the home owner at a get together a couple of weeks ago
He is still in shock that his beloved Ford could combust like that

 

[davidvel]

Good friends of my niece lost their 5 bedroom home 4 months ago
Devastating fire
Whole home ablaze in less than 10 minutes
Nobody was injured by the grace of god
Everybody got out
Report of the cause was returned last week
2022 Ford F150 had a short somewhere under the hood and ignited gasoline
Fuel was under pressure and sprayed around the garage and acted as an accelerant
Talked with the home owner at a get together a couple of weeks ago
He is still in shock that his beloved Ford could combust like that

That story was made up. An ICE vehicle couldn't do that. People shouldn't choose EVs because they can catch fire.

 

[easyrider]

Honestly, unless the consumer fits into a narrower category of a constant roadtripper, or needs a vehicle that seats 7+ people comfortably (even the Rivian R1S meets this need handily) and/or uses their vehicle for towing heavy loads or a heavy trailer for example, your statements make little to no sense to me as an actual real world BEV owner. I am more bothered by the actions and maintenance required to own my ICE vehicle than I am my BEV - and yes I own both so I can speak from real world life experience. Exactly what "actions" are you referring to? We literally never have to visit a gas station for daily driving with our BEV -ever - it charges automatically overnight every night and is ready to go every morning like clockwork - and at 20% of the cost of gas. No having to waste 5-10 minutes at a gas station every week for example - while paying considerably less for fuel. No having to bother with changing oil every 5-10k miles, no bothering with having to rotate tires even. Our BEV has 25k miles on it and literally, has experienced equal tire wear across all four tires with narry a single rotation (perfect 50/50 weight distribution with a very low center of gravity has its benefits). How can you not like something having never experienced nor lived with that something? I could see the logic in @dagger1 stating what he stated, given he has actually owned a BEV and speaks from real world experience in comparison.

While it may seem trivial to you, most consumers just don't want to figure it out. On top of figuring it out, most consumers don't want to learn the hard way. An example is running out of power. What if you had to evacuate in your less than fully charged EV ? What if you are stuck in traffic for too long ? The list is extensive and I'm sure there are those that think it is trivial to them but to others not so much. Why should anyone consider buying an EV when their vehicles are perfectly fine ? Especially an overpriced vehicle which most seem to be these days.

For me, the real problem is what I like. I like a vehicle that can do a job. We have a lifted SUV to haul things inside, tow heavy toys and camp in. We have a lifted Jeep that can go almost anywhere I point it. We have a Diesel Dodge Ram truck that can tow very heavy trailers and make dump runs. We have a Lincoln Town Car for road trips. We have a Honda for around town.

I can work on every one of these vehicles is another plus. Not just the easy stuff. I can get parts for all of these on the same day. They are all paid off.

To be honest, I don't even like charging my cell phone and I'm sure charging a car every night is just another thing I wouldn't like to do. With my cell phone, occasionally I forget to charge my phone. I'm sure the same thing happens with ev's.

I have rented hybrids and they might work for us as an around town vehicle, but I doubt I would ever buy one. In the next few years I think we will see a total collapse of the EV market. It was a bad idea to start with and isn't getting any better is the reality.

Just so everyone knows, I pro-Bill on these types of things and not anti-anything, lol.

Bill

 

[Ken555]

Hey Bill,

What finally made you trade in your horse for a car back in the day? I'm sure you have some thrilling memories about that decision!

 

[easyrider]

Your experience aside, you are wrong again. A slow leak would not be excluded because of a lack of maintenance (If you disagree show the policy language in a HO-form policy that says otherwise.) It may be excluded because the policy requires an occurrence, or a specific exclusion for ongoing leaks.

Either way, this has nothing to do with an exclusion for EV vehicle fires, which does not exist.

That's my point Dave. You can't claim a policy covers an EV fire unless you know the exclusions and limits of which every policy has multiple pages listed that many don't actually read for the most part.

What if your EV starts on fire in a parking garage and destroys all the cars and the garage ? Your insurance would pay up to the limit and you probably owe somebody something is what I think.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Hey Bill,

What finally made you trade in your horse for a car back in the day? I'm sure you have some thrilling memories about that decision!

What makes you think I don't have my horse ?

Bill

 

[Brett]

While it may seem trivial to you, most consumers just don't want to figure it out. On top of figuring it out, most consumers don't want to learn the hard way. An example is running out of power. What if you had to evacuate in your less than fully charged EV ? What if you are stuck in traffic for too long ? The list is extensive and I'm sure there are those that think it is trivial to them but to others not so much. Why should anyone consider buying an EV when their vehicles are perfectly fine ? Especially an overpriced vehicle which most seem to be these days.

For me, the real problem is what I like. I like a vehicle that can do a job. We have a lifted SUV to haul things inside, tow heavy toys and camp in. We have a lifted Jeep that can go almost anywhere I point it. We have a Diesel Dodge Ram truck that can tow very heavy trailers and make dump runs. We have a Lincoln Town Car for road trips. We have a Honda for around town.

I can work on every one of these vehicles is another plus. Not just the easy stuff. I can get parts for all of these on the same day. They are all paid off.

To be honest, I don't even like charging my cell phone and I'm sure charging a car every night is just another thing I wouldn't like to do. With my cell phone, occasionally I forget to charge my phone. I'm sure the same thing happens with ev's.

I have rented hybrids and they might work for us as an around town vehicle, but I doubt I would ever buy one. In the next few years I think we will see a total collapse of the EV market. It was a bad idea to start with and isn't getting any better is the reality.

Just so everyone knows, I pro-Bill on these types of things and not anti-anything, lol.

Bill

Kinda like your stock market predictions, right Dr. Bill?

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...biggest-jump-2024-rho-motion-says-2024-08-12/

 

[easyrider]

Kinda like your stock market predictions, right Dr. Bill?

View attachment 98291

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...biggest-jump-2024-rho-motion-says-2024-08-12/

I read an article about Byrd doing really well in China. I wonder if you ever took the time to see what is being produced for the average Joe Chinese person. These are very small pos's by American standards. A Chevy Bolt is larger than most of these Chinese cars. Some people like small cheap cars. BTW, my prediction on the stock market is a slow bleed which means the market will go through fluctuations until it doesn't.

I don't get why as a world we are forced into ev's considering any car can be converted to run on ammonia. Pretty much any machine with a piston can be converted to run on ammonia. Ammonia has been used as an experimental transportation fuel for a long time, including by NASA and the Air Force. When burned in an internal combustion engine, ammonia produces only nitrogen and water, which are both benign to the environment. It wouldn't be too difficult to convert existing gas stations to ammonia stations.

The cynic in me thinks the only reason this wouldn't work is it's too easy and there wouldn't be enough money to siphon off for greedy pockets.

Bill

 

[davidvel]

That's my point Dave. You can't claim a policy covers an EV fire unless you know the exclusions and limits of which every policy has multiple pages listed that many don't actually read for the most part.

What if your EV starts on fire in a parking garage and destroys all the cars and the garage ? Your insurance would pay up to the limit and you probably owe somebody something is what I think.

Bill

Actually I can because I have read hundreds of policies. If there is a single policy it is a one off. You claimed that policies exclude EV fires. that is patently false.

If any car catches on fire and you are found negligent, your policy will pay up to the limits. Likely those people will have comprehensive coverage to pay them. Again, this has nothing to do with EV vehicles.

 

[TolmiePeak]

Hey Bill,

What finally made you trade in your horse for a car back in the day? I'm sure you have some thrilling memories about that decision!

Isn't it easier just to live in a location where you don't need a car to get around?

 

[emeryjre]

Vehicles of all kinds catch on fire
I am unwilling to spend the time researching
But I would bet that 60 years ago, a higher percentage of gas vehicles caught on fire than today
Fires were looked at in 1960 and changes were made to reduce that particular cause of the fire
It is a continuously evolving situation
I am not sure what happened in the Ford Pickup Fire
But I am sure that engineers at Ford, Fire Safety Officials, Insurance Companies, and the appropriate Federal and State agencies are all looking carefully at the report
Does it warrant a recall
Was it an engineering error at Ford, a parts supplier, etc., etc.
They will get to the bottom of this problem
Electric Vehicles undergo the same evaluation
Batteries are safer today than 10 years ago
Batteries will be safer in 10 years than they are now
So the evolution of transportation keeps moving forward
With the goal of more safety

 

[HitchHiker71]

While it may seem trivial to you, most consumers just don't want to figure it out. On top of figuring it out, most consumers don't want to learn the hard way. An example is running out of power. What if you had to evacuate in your less than fully charged EV ? What if you are stuck in traffic for too long ? The list is extensive and I'm sure there are those that think it is trivial to them but to others not so much. Why should anyone consider buying an EV when their vehicles are perfectly fine ? Especially an overpriced vehicle which most seem to be these days.

The average MSRP for a new BEV vs ICE is now equal - without the tax incentives - currently around 49k MSRP. I'm not trivializing anything, nothing I did was in any way complicated. If I can do this stuff so can anyone else - I'm not special LOL. Having a charger or a NEMA 14-50 plug installed in a garage is DIY easy or any electrician can do it easily if/when needed. Figure what out exactly? How to plug in the car when you park it in your garage at night? That's 5-10 seconds - insert tab A into slot B easy. Even if we assume 10 seconds each time for plug/unplug, that's 70 seconds a week - sure beats having to sit in a line at the Costco gas station and then fuel up for 5-10 minutes every week. This is real world experience talking here as opposed to internet talking points from someone with zero real world experience living with a BEV in comparison. I've literally never run out of gas in my entire life, and we've literally never run out of power in our BEV either - in fact we've never even come close. Sitting in a BEV in traffic is a false argument, you'd likely run out of fuel in a ICE vehicle before a BEV ran dry on power as BEVs are very efficient in comparison and can literally last for days sitting in traffic:

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check/electric-cars-not-more-likely-to-get-stuck-in-traffic-jams-idUSL1N2RW0QD/

I'd readily take being stuck in our BEV in traffic over our ICE vehicle - we've had both occur due to traffic accidents - I simply turn on Tesla FSD and the car drives itself in stop and go traffic with zero intervention flawlessly. If we had to evacuate we simply jump in the BEV and charge when we need to charge dependent upon the destination chosen - the in car navigation does it all for you without any issue. There's no "extensive list" except in the minds of skeptics with zero real world experience really. I don't take issue with your choices, you can choose to do whatever you want, but parroting the same tired internet talking points that simply aren't true for the vast majority of consumers, is tiresome to say the least.

For me, the real problem is what I like. I like a vehicle that can do a job. We have a lifted SUV to haul things inside, tow heavy toys and camp in. We have a lifted Jeep that can go almost anywhere I point it. We have a Diesel Dodge Ram truck that can tow very heavy trailers and make dump runs. We have a Lincoln Town Car for road trips. We have a Honda for around town.

I can work on every one of these vehicles is another plus. Not just the easy stuff. I can get parts for all of these on the same day. They are all paid off.

To be honest, I don't even like charging my cell phone and I'm sure charging a car every night is just another thing I wouldn't like to do. With my cell phone, occasionally I forget to charge my phone. I'm sure the same thing happens with ev's.

I have rented hybrids and they might work for us as an around town vehicle, but I doubt I would ever buy one. In the next few years I think we will see a total collapse of the EV market. It was a bad idea to start with and isn't getting any better is the reality.

Just so everyone knows, I pro-Bill on these types of things and not anti-anything, lol.

Bill

I get it - we own both ICE and BEV - my 2018 RAM 1500 ICE pickup is paid off and I don't plan on getting rid of it any time soon as I use it for truck things on occasion often enough that keeping it is worthwhile to us. This may change at some point as we get older, only time will tell. I'm not anti-ICE - we own both - but I'm also not opposed to BEV adoption and after owning a Tesla BEV for 1.5 years now we're quite happy with it - my wife will never consider going back to ICE after owning the Tesla. She points and laughs at the long gas lines at Costco every time she shops there as she drives by now, never having to go through those lines ever again. Next year we are likely going solar on our home, after which we will literally pay zero for charging our BEV and the solar array will be break-even day one as it will completely eliminate our power bill.

 

[x3 skier]

Next year we are likely going solar on our home, after which we will literally pay zero for charging our BEV and the solar array will be break-even day one as it will completely eliminate our power bill.

I'm curious. Does this mean your monthly electric bill is equal to the cost of purchasing and installing the solar array? My monthly bill is about $100 here in SW Ohio.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I'm curious. Does this mean your monthly electric bill is equal to the cost of purchasing and installing the solar array? My monthly bill is about $100 here in SW Ohio.

Our power bill last month was $576 in comparison. It averages about $400/month annually. We are 100% electric in our development - there is no natural gas available. We also have an inground pool which adds quite a bit of power consumption in the summer months, and we have a BEV which adds about $35-75/month dependent upon usage (overnight charging costs between $1.00-2.50 per day - again dependent upon daily usage). We have a backup oil burner which also costs about $1500-2000 per year for oil fills for the winter months. $400/month buys a lot of solar.

 

[easyrider]

Actually I can because I have read hundreds of policies. If there is a single policy it is a one off. You claimed that policies exclude EV fires. that is patently false.

If any car catches on fire and you are found negligent, your policy will pay up to the limits. Likely those people will have comprehensive coverage to pay them. Again, this has nothing to do with EV vehicles.

What I'm saying is insurance policies have exclusions and limits that affect approval or denial. Acts of negligent recklessness are a means to deny a claim. So Yes, insurance companies may deny claims due to reckless behavior, as policies often exclude intentional acts and gross negligence. Insurance is intended to cover accidents, not deliberate or grossly negligent actions. Recklessness involves knowingly ignoring or disregarding the safety of others or potential dangers and is grounds to deny a claim.

Regarding an EV fire that burns down a house claim, if the policyholder was aware of a manufacturer defect because the manufacturer sent notice to park the EV 50ft away from any combustibles, and the policy holder ignored this resulting in the fire, the insurance company has grounds to deny the claim. This would be a negligent action.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

The average MSRP for a new BEV vs ICE is now equal - without the tax incentives - currently around 49k MSRP. I'm not trivializing anything, nothing I did was in any way complicated. If I can do this stuff so can anyone else - I'm not special LOL. Having a charger or a NEMA 14-50 plug installed in a garage is DIY easy or any electrician can do it easily if/when needed. Figure what out exactly? How to plug in the car when you park it in your garage at night? That's 5-10 seconds - insert tab A into slot B easy. Even if we assume 10 seconds each time for plug/unplug, that's 70 seconds a week - sure beats having to sit in a line at the Costco gas station and then fuel up for 5-10 minutes every week. This is real world experience talking here as opposed to internet talking points from someone with zero real world experience living with a BEV in comparison. I've literally never run out of gas in my entire life, and we've literally never run out of power in our BEV either - in fact we've never even come close. Sitting in a BEV in traffic is a false argument, you'd likely run out of fuel in a ICE vehicle before a BEV ran dry on power as BEVs are very efficient in comparison and can literally last for days sitting in traffic:

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check/electric-cars-not-more-likely-to-get-stuck-in-traffic-jams-idUSL1N2RW0QD/

I'd readily take being stuck in our BEV in traffic over our ICE vehicle - we've had both occur due to traffic accidents - I simply turn on Tesla FSD and the car drives itself in stop and go traffic with zero intervention flawlessly. If we had to evacuate we simply jump in the BEV and charge when we need to charge dependent upon the destination chosen - the in car navigation does it all for you without any issue. There's no "extensive list" except in the minds of skeptics with zero real world experience really. I don't take issue with your choices, you can choose to do whatever you want, but parroting the same tired internet talking points that simply aren't true for the vast majority of consumers, is tiresome to say the least.


I get it - we own both ICE and BEV - my 2018 RAM 1500 ICE pickup is paid off and I don't plan on getting rid of it any time soon as I use it for truck things on occasion often enough that keeping it is worthwhile to us. This may change at some point as we get older, only time will tell. I'm not anti-ICE - we own both - but I'm also not opposed to BEV adoption and after owning a Tesla BEV for 1.5 years now we're quite happy with it - my wife will never consider going back to ICE after owning the Tesla. She points and laughs at the long gas lines at Costco every time she shops there as she drives by now, never having to go through those lines ever again. Next year we are likely going solar on our home, after which we will literally pay zero for charging our BEV and the solar array will be break-even day one as it will completely eliminate our power bill.

I think you live in an EV Goldilocks zone and have a home charger. For some people an EV makes perfect sense.

Bill

 

[x3 skier]

Our power bill last month was $576 in comparison. It averages about $400/month annually. We are 100% electric in our development - there is no natural gas available. We also have an inground pool which adds quite a bit of power consumption in the summer months, and we have a BEV which adds about $35-75/month dependent upon usage (overnight charging costs between $1.00-2.50 per day - again dependent upon daily usage). We have a backup oil burner which also costs about $1500-2000 per year for oil fills for the winter months. $400/month buys a lot of solar.

When I read “break even day one”, it meant that one month bill ($400) paid for the solar array.

Thanks.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Isn't it easier just to live in a location where you don't need a car to get around?

I dream of living somewhere where the majority of our errands are done via an electric golf cart.

 

[TolmiePeak]

I dream of living somewhere where the majority of our errands are done via an electric golf cart.

Del Boca Vista Phase 2 is for you.... There is a unit available next to Frank Costanza if you can tolerate the yelling..

 

[HitchHiker71]

When I read “break even day one”, it meant that one month bill ($400) paid for the solar array.

Thanks.

No - what it means is the same $400/month covers the entirety of our commercial electric bill by switching to a solar panel/tile array - going from fossil fuel based electricity generation that is subject to constant price increases every couple of years - to fixed price from this point forward. We would also replace our aging HVAC system at the same time, which is the largest proportion of our energy usage today, which would actually result in us selling electric back to the grid as we would generate more power than we consume on average.

 

[davidvel]

You just keep repeating yourself and you are still wrong.

What I'm saying is insurance policies have exclusions and limits that affect approval or denial. Acts of negligent recklessness are a means to deny a claim. So Yes, insurance companies may deny claims due to reckless behavior, as policies often exclude intentional acts and gross negligence. Insurance is intended to cover accidents, not deliberate or grossly negligent actions. Recklessness involves knowingly ignoring or disregarding the safety of others or potential dangers and is grounds to deny a claim.

Lets go back and see what you actually said:

I have read that EV battery fire isn't covered under many home owner or auto insurance policies. This would be a concern for me.

Bill

This was wrong when you said it and it still is. You are now trying to lower the basket to 4 feet so you can score. Recklessness is not the same as an intentional act. You are not a lawyer, so stop trying to be one. Regardless, you said an ev-battery fire is not covered. You did not say a fire caused by an insured's intentional act is not covered.

Regarding an EV fire that burns down a house claim, if the policyholder was aware of a manufacturer defect because the manufacturer sent notice to park the EV 50ft away from any combustibles, and the policy holder ignored this resulting in the fire, the insurance company has grounds to deny the claim. This would be a negligent action.

Bill

Wrong. Again you do not understand insurance coverage interpretation. I already cited the CA statute (which is similar in nearly all states and contained in policies.) Negligent actions by an insured do not bar coverage. If the insured actually intends and acts in furtherance of that intent (not is merely reckless), coverage would be barred.

 

[easyrider]

You just keep repeating yourself and you are still wrong.

Lets go back and see what you actually said:

This was wrong when you said it and it still is. You are now trying to lower the basket to 4 feet so you can score. Recklessness is not the same as an intentional act. You are not a lawyer, so stop trying to be one. Regardless, you said an ev-battery fire is not covered. You did not say a fire caused by an insured's intentional act is not covered.

Wrong. Again you do not understand insurance coverage interpretation. I already cited the CA statute (which is similar in nearly all states and contained in policies.) Negligent actions by an insured do not bar coverage. If the insured actually intends and acts in furtherance of that intent (not is merely reckless), coverage would be barred.

Negligence would be something like a driver not paying attention, like on a cell phone, and causing an accident. Reckless negligence is when you are paying attention, like in racing, and cause an accident. If we agree on this then maybe this too. A person receiving notification that their EV has a potential battery glitch that could start a fire and to park 50ft away from combustibles decides to disregard the notice and the EV battery starts on fire is recklessly negligent. When a person knowingly causes this type of damage you are saying it is covered under a home owners policy. I'm saying maybe, maybe not. I've seen damaged homes that should have been approved for insurance claims and I've seen homes that were approved that should have been denied.

Claims can be denied if the insurer decides you acted negligently. Let's go back to the leaking pipe that is a maintenance issue. Eventually the leak causes damage. This isn't necessarily covered because it is a maintenance issue and the home owner was negligent in repair.

Dave, I do see what I actually said. I agree that it could use clarification if anyone really cared.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Del Boca Vista Phase 2 is for you.... There is a unit available next to Frank Costanza if you can tolerate the yelling..

Not sure where that is but we are most likely to end up in the Carolinas somewhere either close to the beach (we are fond of the North Myrtle Beach area), or in the Carolina mountains somewhere. We go back and forth at present but don’t have to make a decision until a few years from now.


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[HitchHiker71]

When I read “break even day one”, it meant that one month bill ($400) paid for the solar array.

Thanks.

We could do so if we were to lease the entire solar array - basically lease our roof - which is typically zero down or close to it - but generally if one can afford to purchase the array it’s best from an ROI standpoint.


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