Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[HitchHiker71]

while all state laws are different, and all timeshare contracts/ownerships are different.... im pretty sure the % of voters that would be required to dissolve the timeshare itself (if its even an option in the covenants) would likely be unachievable.

vs pursuing this route which has a far higher chance of success and provides the same end result (as far as wyndham is concerned anyway)

Hence why we are seeing a pattern emerge without a doubt. It offers up the best chance of success for the actions in scope.

 

[HitchHiker71]

few takeaway points from a conversation I had today with an industry source I trust.

1. I no longer expect ANY of these resorts to remain in operation as timeshares, period. to put it another way, the chances of any owners at these resorts retaining their existing timeshare ownership under Wyndham or any other timeshare entity is slim to none.

owners will likely be faced with two choices sometime in 2026:

1. wait out the process and cross your fingers the resort properties get sold and you get a cut of the proceeds after the bankruptcy process completes (meanwhile youd still have to pay your 2026 fees)
2. accept a cwa transfer when offered if you wish to remain a Wyndham timeshare owner.
3. not pay your 2026 fees and wash your hands of it all.

2. I don't expect this arbitrary deadline of 12/31/25 to remain in place. now what happens on 1/1/2026 remains to be seen, but the idea that all these resorts are even going to complete the necessary/legal processes and procedures to prepare and proceed with bankruptcy/sale/etc within the next few months is a pipe dream. honestly I have no idea where this drop dead date came from, but I dont see it sticking given the things that would need to be sorted out before then.


The main reason for my opinions changing on this rely on the timeshare replacement laws that would force Wyndham to provide equal interval replacements into the system for any weeks/points/intervals they sold/removed. This however apparently does NOT apply if the resort itself declares bankruptcy and is sold as part of that process. As such, this entire strategy makes way more sense as there would be no financial benefit to wyndham trying to sell these resorts as is(nor any benefit to a 3rd party BUYING the resorts as is, as they would have to take the bad debt and all wyndham owned inventory as part of the sale). This would also allow the disposal of any/all developer owned inventory and maintenance fee obligations. a win win for Wyndham....notsomuch for the owners at these resorts though!

Excellent information Brian! Thanks for sharing. According to @bnoble the removal of the resort from the Wyndham system vs the specifics of the disposition are two separate actions and Wyndham can remove any resort from the system at any time really. So our assumptions to date are that the disposition specifics aren't tied to the resort removals. Now with the added information about the BKO proceedings negating any requirements for equal interval replacements, this approach makes even more sense. Again, thanks for sharing.

 

[dioxide45]

I'd be shocked if Wyndham didn't already have prospective buyers lined up for this planned strategy before anyone heard anything about it.

Wouldn't it be up to the HOA to find a buyer? I would think they would list the property for sale with a commercial real estate agent. I doubt they have buyers ready to step in right away, and it is probably likely that a bankruptcy process won't let them just go with a pre selected buyer. The court will want to solicit bids from several potential buyers.

 

[bizaro86]

I'd be shocked if Wyndham didn't already have prospective buyers lined up for this planned strategy before anyone heard anything about it.

Wyndham probably has a bidder lined up, but I'd be shocked if a bankruptcy court would allow a pre-negotiated sale of the estate's largest asset. They'd almost certainly require a marketing process with the ability to take the highest bid.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Wouldn't it be up to the HOA to find a buyer? I would think they would list the property for sale with a commercial real estate agent. I doubt they have buyers ready to step in right away, and it is probably likely that a bankruptcy process won't let them just go with a pre selected buyer. The court will want to solicit bids from several potential buyers.

Given Wyndham has reps that sit on every HOA BOD and in at least some cases holds a majority of the BOD seats and votes, and these folks actually use wyn.com email addresses outright on the BOD emails (I've seen them firsthand during the actions we're talking about on this thread), I don't think it's a big leap. Wyndham is literally using the same law firm and the same companies to sell these resorts across the resort HOA BOD comms that I've seen and that are managing these actions - in other words - the same firm that represents Wyndham is also being used for these legal actions for bankruptcy proceedings. Granted, this obviously cleared conflicts within that firm, and there are statements explicitly addressing the disparity of the legal actions within Wyndham vs the BOD that make it all look good, but still, what does that tell you? I worked for a very large law firm for 15 years, and there's what's on paper and what's not on paper when it comes to these sorts of things. It is all made to sound very prim and proper, that's not what actually transpires off the record. In any case, sure there will be required court processes, but the bidders are waiting in the wings with checks at the ready, bet on it.

 

[TUGBrian]

with some of these resorts, im not sure there would be much of a bidding war involved.

OIR however would have no problem finding a buyer for the property itself if was free and clear.

 

[TUGBrian]

Given Wyndham has reps that sit on every HOA BOD and in at least some cases holds a majority of the BOD votes, and these folks actually use wyn.com email addresses outright on the BOD emails (I've seen them firsthand during the actions we're talking about on this thread), I don't think it's a big leap. Wyndham is literally using the same lawyers and the same companies across the resort HOA BODs that are managing these actions. What does that tell you? Sure there will be required court processes, but the bidders are waiting in the wings with checks at the ready, bet on it.

agreed, id also expect to see a number of owner BOD members resign if the writing truly is on the wall...who would want to put themselves in that position on a clearly sinking ship?

for all intents and purposes the "association" for these cases would be wyndham.

 

[silentg]

Some of the timeshare resorts could become independent? That’s a possibility?

 

[dioxide45]

Some of the timeshare resorts could become independent? That’s a possibility?

Based on Brian's post #2065, it doesn't seem like that is the direction they want to try and take. The plan is for the properties to end the timeshare scheme. What happens after that would be a disposition. A new property owner would come in and do something or nothing. Perhaps someone just buys to sit on the land for investment purposes.

The problem with some of these properties, unless the units can simply be converted to whole ownership, the cost of redevelopment might be too high to make the numbers work for a buyer. If the buildings are at the end of their expected life, then that means they really just need to be torn down and the land redeveloped. It isn't necessarily cheap to demo entire buildings. Some of these properties might have a harder time finding a buyer than others.

 

[TUGBrian]

Some of the timeshare resorts could become independent? That’s a possibility?

have to imagine if there was a way to turn a profit on these as timeshares and make them viable in their current configuration they wouldnt be in this situation in the first place.

While anything is possible, after the conversation today I dont think there is any realistic chance for any of these resorts given what would have to happen to all the existing ownerships including those owned by the association/wyndham directly.

perhaps whomever ends up owning the properties when its all said and done can do some creative reconfiguration to scale down some of these and sell off the rest as condos or permanent ownership type situations?

 

[jp10558]

Just checked in at Club Wyndham Branson at the Meadows, and the pitch to try and get me to do a presentation (I declined) was to tell me about them shutting down some number of properties. Apparently that is more correct than I originally thought - though it again makes it rankle more that they renovated some so much if it's just being shut down entirely and apparently likely bulldozed. Unless we think they're really going to sell as wholly owned condos.

 

[hjsweet2002]

Bentley Brook just undertook a major remodeling project. Made the buildings up to State codes. Remodeled several units to handicap units to include audio/visual handicap rooms. Heard one rumor (not confirmed) thst they wanted to sell for 25 million.

 

[Arimaas]

Remember with all of this, and I know I am basically repeating myself, Wyndham owns a large portion (maybe even majority) of intervals at each of these locations. They don't want to get stuck footing the bill for this for an extended period of time to watch this process play out. There is a plan for what to do with these properties, and we won't know what that is until it plays out. But I'd bet my "pay out" that this plays out rather quickly, because Wyndham does not want to be on the hook for the costs associated with a long drawn out process.

 

[northovr]

What makes no sense at Patriots Place less than 3 years ago they had to vote to remove the sunset clause for renovations which was over 10 million dollars plus just for the Saturday side and and the Sunday side is continuing even though they are closing for millions more. The real estate company selling the property said it will only sell for 10 million max. What is the point?

Thanks Mike Brown

Makes no sense
Daniel

 

[dayooper]

That would be interesting. If Hilton bought Shawnee and Atlantic City and put them in Bluegreen, I would buy points, resell, in a heart beat.

As an HGVC owner, my guess is that this won’t happen. In one of the previous quarterly calls, HGVC Mark Wang suggested that some of the more unique BlueGreen properties would become part of HGVC and most of the rest would be absorbed into HGV/former DRI. Again, this was just an investor call so nothing was announced (still waiting for that HGVC in Pigeon Forge you said was happening in an investor call, Mark). The point being that it’s possible that BlueGreen might be absorbed into another system.

 

[HitchHiker71]

As an HGVC owner, my guess is that this won’t happen. In one of the previous quarterly calls, HGVC Mark Wang suggested that some of the more unique BlueGreen properties would become part of HGVC and most of the rest would be absorbed into HGV/former DRI. Again, this was just an investor call so nothing was announced (still waiting for that HGVC in Pigeon Forge you said was happening in an investor call, Mark). The point being that it’s possible that BlueGreen might be absorbed into another system.

Interesting, I’m not familiar with the BG trust governing documents and requirements. IME generally these types of actions to fold certain resorts into another timeshare system, in this case HGVC or DRI, would normally require voting approval from the BG ownership base, unless of course there are clauses in the BG governing documents similar to those in the Wyndham governing trust documents that allow the developer to remove resorts from the system essentially at their sole discretion. We may see HGVC leverage the same bankruptcy approach that Wyndham is currently using to remove the resorts being tracked in this thread.

Curious, is Wyndham the first developer to attempt to remove resorts using the bankruptcy approach we’re learning about? Or have others already pioneered this approach before? IDK for my part since I’m only familiar with Wyndham.


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[HitchHiker71]

Bentley Brook just undertook a major remodeling project. Made the buildings up to State codes. Remodeled several units to handicap units to include audio/visual handicap rooms. Heard one rumor (not confirmed) thst they wanted to sell for 25 million.

Real estate in MA is pretty expensive, and they are larger buildings, and at a ski-on resort no less, so I’m sure they will fetch a decent amount. Only time will tell how much and how soon.


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[dayooper]

Interesting, I’m not familiar with the BG trust governing documents and requirements, but generally any such actions to fold certain resorts into HGVC or DRI (different timeshare systems) would normally require approval from the ownership base, unless of course there are clauses in the BG governing documents similar to those in the Wyndham governing trust documents that allow the developer to remove resorts from the system essentially at their sole discretion, and/or we may see HGVC leverage the same bankruptcy approach that Wyndham is currently using to remove the resorts being tracked in this thread. Is Wyndham the first developer to attempt to remove resorts using the bankruptcy approach we’re learning about? Or have others already pioneered this approach before? IDK for my part since I’m only familiar with Wyndham.


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I think there’s a lot unpack and first of all, it could be what they were thinking at the time. I’m not confident that it will happen. The second piece is that HGV uses how they label the resorts to be able to charge more for Hilton rentals. HGVC properties can be rented at a higher rate than HCV can. The former Embarc properties were labeled HGVC, but are still their own separate system.

 

[dioxide45]

Interesting, I’m not familiar with the BG trust governing documents and requirements. IME generally these types of actions to fold certain resorts into HGVC or DRI (different timeshare systems) would normally require voting approval from the BG ownership base, unless of course there are clauses in the BG governing documents similar to those in the Wyndham governing trust documents that allow the developer to remove resorts from the system essentially at their sole discretion. We may see HGVC leverage the same bankruptcy approach that Wyndham is currently using to remove the resorts being tracked in this thread.

Curious, is Wyndham the first developer to attempt to remove resorts using the bankruptcy approach we’re learning about? Or have others already pioneered this approach before? IDK for my part since I’m only familiar with Wyndham.


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I think with Bluegreen it's just a rebranding of the property. The actual club that the property operates in is still the same. So Bluegreen would still work within the Bluegreen program, even if it was rebranded on the resort level as HGVC or HVC. Kind of like they've done with Embarc. They are rebranding those to Hilton Grand Vacations Club, but other HGVC members can't book them with points (unless they have Max). Cross booking between the systems is still limited to an exchange company (HGV Max).

I am not familiar with any other resort systems closing properties with the bankruptcy approach. Though no other systems have closed resorts on this scale. In fact, I am not sure of any other major system actually closing resorts. Usually they just leave the network/club and go independent.

 

[Floridaman76]

I went to a few BlueGreen sales presentations over the years and from what I remember, they didn't have a "CWA" type ownership system. You bought at a specific resort, and your use rights at other resorts were much more limited, including booking window. They also participated in RCI, but inventory they put into RCI seems much more limited. I tried asking all the questions eaach time to get an idea of how they worked in comparison to how Wynham worked and it made the sales people uncomfortable, like they didn't know. One thing I do know is that BG resale market is VERY limited because BG/Hilton has a ROFR which they DO regularly exercise. They had something confusing to me when you bought (retail), you could pay extra for something they called a "trust", but it wasn't like a legal trust, but it gave you some sort of extra rights or privlages. I thought it was kind of like the WYN VIP program.

Now that said, it may not have been deeded real estate like Wyndham's ownership provides. I never got that far with the process. But they did have some very nice properties, some much nicer than most of Wyndham's. But they also had some turkeys like WYN and the other systems have.

Not long after I went to my last presentation in, I think 2023, they sold to Hilton. Which obviously wan't disclosed to potential owners, and probably not the actual owners at the time.

 

[hjsweet2002]

Personally I believe Wyndham has been planning this for a long time. Making expensive renovations so they can sell for more money.

 

[rickandcindy23]

The title companies will have to clear all titles of every week owned before any closing of a single condo or the full complex takes place.

I know all about this process, and it's a major ordeal because we are going through with it currently for a single unit we are trying to sell to give all of the owners some relief from continued increases in maintenance fees, as we continue to use until the sunset clause date.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The title companies will have to clear all titles of every week owned before any closing of a single condo or the full complex takes place.

I know all about this process, and it's a major ordeal because we are going through with it currently for a single unit we are trying to sell to give all of the owners some relief from continued increases in maintenance fees, as we continue to use until the sunset clause date.

I would surmise the chosen bankruptcy approach will accelerate any such process and reduce complexity - which is one of the goals of any chapter 11 bankruptcy proceeding. Best guess whatever process you are referring to assumes a non-bankruptcy based approach. It’s likely apples and oranges with this in mind.


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[Floridaman76]

I would surmise the chosen bankruptcy approach will accelerate any such process and reduce complexity - which is one of the goals of any chapter 11 bankruptcy proceeding. Best guess whatever process you are referring to assumes a non-bankruptcy based approach. It’s likely apples and oranges with this in mind.


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Bankruptcy does not allow sale of the property without obtaining all interval deeds, which has to occur outside of bankruptcy proceedings.

Bankruptcy cannot take intervals from owners. It's real property. Even if it is a fractional ownership, it's real property. There are certainly other things that bankruptcy can side-step, but not obtaining the actual deeds from the owners.

 

[dioxide45]

Bankruptcy does not allow sale of the property without obtaining all interval deeds, which has to occur outside of bankruptcy proceedings.

Bankruptcy cannot take intervals from owners. It's real property. Even if it is a fractional ownership, it's real property. There are certainly other things that bankruptcy can side-step, but not obtaining the actual deeds from the owners.

But bankruptcy can force the sale of real property.