Wyndham eliminating mega-renters

[rickandcindy23]

You really don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not followed the posts about what was done. What, specifically was done, was not part of the rules. Some people were clearly operating outside the rules, and it was allowed to happen due to lax oversight and/or technological controls in place. In fact, Wyndham found out about most of the exploits accidentally because of some agent in Owner Care seeing something weird when a mega renter reported an issue with not being able to leverage a loophole. And it was shut down.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here or rub it in someone's face, just asking a question

That was rude. George made an excellent point, and I will say again that my resale points always, always enjoyed the same benefits as platinum. That point was made earlier, and I really hadn't thought of it. But as I said, I am happy to be done with the resale points and maybe even some of my platinum points.

 

[dgalati]

They didn't at that time. They still don't for borrowing but he used a feature called points pool that is a little different than borrowing but still did not require a prepayment of MF's.

It dosent matter If points are used for the current use year and sold disclosing none are available until the following use year. I sold every deed with buyer agreeing to no current use year points available and maintenance fees to be paid by buyer at time of transfer. Simple purchase agreement with full disclosure and transparency.

 

[55plus]

And Ron didn't point out that there was no option to NOT book at a discount, even with my resale points. Someone else said that earlier and I think it's a great point. The system didn't have the separation before but does now.

I said that earlier. And you had no choice to pay HCs or reservation transaction if you were a VIP at certain levels. So, Wyndham force the VIPs to enjoy VIP benefits on resale points. Thank you Mr. Wyndham.

 

[rickandcindy23]

It dosent matter If points are used for the current use year and sold disclosing none are available until the following use year. I sold every deed with buyer agreeing to no current use year points available and maintenance fees to be paid by buyer at time of transfer. Simple purchase agreement with full disclosure and transparency.

He never said that he didn't disclose that information during the turnover of the points.

 

[dgalati]

He never said that he didn't disclose that information during the turnover of the points.

I have no skin in the game, but the comment about "paid all my maintenance fees" isn't necessarily accurate is it? Does Wyndham require prepaying MFs on points borrowed from future years?

The reply was intended for post above. The future use year points were also paid by the buyers as it was stated in the purchse agreement.

 

[Sloane S]

I’ve mentioned it before, but I’ll repeat it again. I was the "buyer" of one Ron's stripped contracts, and it was fully disclosed up front what I was getting and what I would be responsible for. I was fine with it, as I did my due diligence in the transaction like any buyer should. Your mileage may vary...

I also got a ton of great info about Avenue Plaza from him.

 

[dgalati]

I was the "buyer" of one Ron's stripped contracts, and it was fully disclosed up front what I was getting and what I would be responsible for. I was fine with it; your mileage may vary...

Shame on me for not knowing at the time I could strip future use years points but everyone of my buyers were fully disclosed of no current use year points. I also disclosed that maintenance fees were buyers resposibility at time of closing.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right
.......
abo

Ethics - sometimes the standpoint is based on where you are standing and where you come from.

One day a poster showed up in the Wyndham forum - asking what do do - I believe they were a couple of months in arrears on MF - and personal life circumstances were difficult. ; and so they were staring at a foreclosure / collection process ........ [ this was before Ovations was a publicized program.]

At that time - @ronparise was regularly buying Wyndham contracts off eBay at an average of a penny a point . As I recall - he offered to take the contract , which also meant bringing the MF current so he could use the points he would own .
This particular contract cost him more than a penny a point / his comment as I recall -"for him , in the big picture the meter would not move enough to matter - but for the OP it was a hugh reduction in financial stress.

MY remembrance of how ethics can work

 

[rickandcindy23]

Ethics - sometimes the standpoint is based on where you are standing and where you come from.

One day a poster showed up in the Wyndham forum - asking what do do - I believe they were a couple of months in arrears on MF - and personal life circumstances were difficult. ; and so they were staring at a foreclosure / collection process ........ [ this was before Ovations was a publicized program.]

At that time - @ronparise was regularly buying Wyndham contracts off eBay at an average of a penny a point . As I recall - he offered to take the contract , which also meant bringing the MF current so he could use the points he would own .
This particular contract cost him more than a penny a point / his comment as I recall -"for him , in the big picture the meter would not move enough to matter - but for the OP it was a hugh reduction in financial stress.

MY remembrance of how ethics can work

Common sense post that a lot of people actually applied a like emoticon to show their support of a well-thought out example. I love what you said. Thank you for that. It's such a nice thing to see.

 

[rapmarks]

what is the topic at hand? I thought it was Wyndham changed the rules (again) in an effort to control renting

we are just offering a little historical perspective

Ron. What are doing now? Still have the boat? Still in Florida?

 

[ronparise]

You really don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not followed the posts about what was done. What, specifically was done, was not part of the rules. Some people were clearly operating outside the rules, and it was allowed to happen due to lax oversight and/or technological controls in place. In fact, Wyndham found out about most of the exploits accidentally because of some agent in Owner Care seeing something weird when a mega renter reported an issue with not being able to leverage a loophole.* And it was shut down.

You are right about how Wyndham found out about what was happening in 2016 but and I can only speak for myself and several others that I was close to. No one was working outside the rules, and at least in my case and several others Im familiar with; Wyndham never said we did. I think Wyndham was just tired of playing wack a mole with us.. They kept changing the rules, we adapted but the rule changes were left in place to screw the little guys.. They squeezed our income thinking we would quit, but all it did in my case is convince me to do more

The problem that owner care had with that first guy, is that their system (or that agent) couldnt handle the number of points the guy wanted to put into the credit pool. They never anticipated the number of points this guy was moving. In any case he was asked to wait until a supervisor could figure out the problem and get back to him the next day. The supervisor saw that this guy was moving something like 10mm points in a 2mm point account. His account, (only this one account) was frozen pending an audit

*Between the last two sentences of the part of your post I quoted above, a whole lot happened *

a lot of accounts were frozen, and a lot of owners were interviewed. on the p[hone and in orlando We were accused of breaking rules or some other illegal acts. They just wanted to know how we had more points in the accounts than justified by our ownerships In my case they were so sure of themselves that they wanted to know what wyndham employee credited my account with points unsupported by any ownership. They said they were doing an audit but they never did one... let that sink in, They never did an audit and they never made any formal accusations...and yet we were still shut down,,

I finally asked the Wyndham lawyer what they wanted. Did they want to identify the number of "extra" points they said I had and take them back or make me pay for them, or did they just want me to go away... The answer was both.. Once I had that info and once I gave up the need to be right and make wyndham the bad guy, we could talk. Yes I was shut down, but I was compensated nicely .... Somewhere deep in the bowels of TUG there is a post where I suggested a number that would convince me to go away... and thats what I got

Nothing in our settlement agreement said anything about anyone doing anything wrong In fact there is a Non-Disparagement. clause where I agree to not disparage Wyndham or they me... This thing was truly an agreement

 

[ronparise]

Ron. What are doing now? Still have the boat? Still in Florida?

Thanks for asking

The big thing that happened is I got old.. (Ill be 75 in October). Im still in Florida, The boat is gone.. My daughter has been cancer free for 8 years and my wife and I are so healthy we dont know what to do with ourselves

Wyndham was quite a ride for me. In 2010, I had lost my home, my income and the little money that I had, in the great recession So, (and I know this makes no sense at all) I bid on a 385000 point Wyndham contract (actually three weeks that had been converted to points) and won and boy did I catch some well deserved crap from my wife. 5 years later thanks to Wyndham, I had a new house no mortgage , a new car, and money in the bank.... just not enough to last the rest of my life..

.so (and this answers your question about what Im doing now) I started to drive Uber and Lyft, and formed my own "one man band" Airport Transportation Company. so we wouldnt have to sell the house or dip into savings. I promised my wife I would stop at age 75 (which seemed so far away),,, But here we are

I think I have enough now to live the way I want to for 20 years, so Im going to try to quit or limit myself to a serving a few favored customers but what to do with all that time?..... Im on the internet every day looking for a small rental property .. .(just dont tell my wife)

 

[Iggyearl]

Ron, I applaud your knowledge and your diplomacy. I started viewing Tug in 2013, and joined in 2014. I consider yourself as one of the most astute and experienced members that I have witnessed during that time. I do Not own a timeshare for numerous reasons (have rented) but find the industry to be one of the most interesting and curious subjects I have experienced. I would like to thank you for explaining your actions and reasoning - even though you don't have to .

I feel that you should not be insulted by a "GUEST" who has no background on your history, and who is just looking at teaching you a "lesson." This is a guest who doesn't feel that he should pay the nominal $15 fee to join the best timeshare group on the planet. Talk about taking advantage.

I am a couple years behind you, and I appreciate that you have good health and a nest-egg. That is about all you need. I might add that the one preoccupation that fills my days is golf. Many people take it up at an advanced age. Go to a driving range and hit a bucket of balls. You might enjoy it. Best to you.

 

[rapmarks]

I am older than you guys, Ron and Iggyearl, have played golf starting in my fifties, and now I am learning pickle ball. My knee was bad for probably 25 years before I gave in and had it replaced,and now I can move enough for pickle ball

 

[55plus]

I'm a little more than 10 years behind you. Hope to leave my VIPP to my sister and brother-in-law, niece or nephew, not Wyndham when I stop traveling. That's when I'll move to Florida. I'll probably be too old to continue riding my Harleys, so I'll be the old guy in the convertible Corvette.

 

[ronparise]

I'm a little more than 10 years behind you. Hope to leave my VIPP to my sister and brother-in-law, niece or nephew, not Wyndham when I stop traveling. That's when I'll move to Florida. I'll probably be too old to continue riding my Harleys, so I'll be the old guy in the convertible Corvette.

down here you need to have a gray ponytail to drive a Harley there a lot of old guy on trikes down here

 

[55plus]

down here you need to have a gray ponytail to drive a Harley there a lot of old guy on trikes down here

I don't do trikes. A sidecar maybe, but never a trike. And no ponytail for me. Attached is one of my older Harleys. It's 33 years and as cherry as it was when I bought it new from a Harley dealer.

 

[samara64]

I feel that you should not be insulted by a "GUEST" who has no background on your history, and who is just looking at teaching you a "lesson." This is a guest who doesn't feel that he should pay the nominal $15 fee to join the best timeshare group on the planet. Talk about taking advantage.

Not really a participant in the discussion as I do not own Wyndham (Like Worldmark More) but I do agree with the above statement and I think we should all ignore this Guest as I do not see a single useful comment in his posts.

And I know for sure that Jim is alive and very well as Cindy was asking about him.

 

[lost patience]

Some owners are continuing to rent stays on the blackout lists and counting on being able to cheat the system by waiting until the guest is ready to check in to change the reservation to their name. From what I was told at a resort by someone who would definitely know, they're watching for that.

FYI - Owner Care TOLD me to do exactly that. And, no, I did not follow that suggestion.

 

[55plus]

I would think the system would block the transaction from going through unless the owner also had a reservation for themselves. I have 28 guests certificates left so I a reservation for me and a fake guest. Then cancel my reservation and see if the system cancels the guest reservation. I hope it does cancel it or there's a problem.

 

[wjappraise]

I would think the system would block the transaction from going through unless the owner also had a reservation for themselves. I have 28 guests certificates left so I a reservation for me and a fake guest. Then cancel my reservation and see if the system cancels the guest reservation. I hope it does cancel it or there's a problem.

Great. Thanks for taking one for the team. Please let us know how it works. This is an example of what makes this forum so valuable.

Wes.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The "average owner booking window is now 126 days out" according to Michael Brown in the Q2 2021 earnings call. If it's a normal distribution, a reasonable person would expect folks to start booking in appreciable quantities somewhere around twice that, or 8 months, barring externalities like prime locations and dates driving people that are happy to plan ahead to book those as soon as the 10-month window opens or in the ARP. I think you're spot on that the "average owner" will continue to be unhappy.

Thanks for pointing out the average owner booking window of 126 days. That's roughly four months by my count. We tend to book our bigger family vacations farther out than that - usually 8-10 months or sometimes even using RARP - which will no longer be possible will all of our points since roughly 1/2 of our points are resale and won't be RARP eligible any longer - so 10 months it will be - at least for our resale points.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Although let’s also remember that most of that renter’s bookings were for 2-night weekends at an average of <25k points. So that availability is either going to favor the minority of owners who have unlimited housekeeping, or people are going to book that availability as part of a longer reservation and fewer than 150 owners will benefit.

Yes - but the overall point is - many more owners will be happy - as opposed to many more renters. This is an extremely basic premise - so I'm a bit surprised it gets such a large amount of pushback here on TUG if I'm honest.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Not really a participant in the discussion as I do not own Wyndham (Like Worldmark More) but I do agree with the above statement and I think we should all ignore this Guest as I do not see a single useful comment in his posts.

And I know for sure that Jim is alive and very well as Cindy was asking about him.

Oh, GOOD! Thank you. I was hoping he was doing well. We haven't heard an update on his family for a while.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Nobody seems to care about how sales duped owners into buying. Especially Wyndham now that they are closing the loopholes that sales used to sell.

For my part - I care - I've written entire articles and posts about the fact that Wyndham is a company with a very good product - backed by a miserable sales division. Regardless, the company has a new leader who is implementing these changes (CEO) - so I don't really see the point in continuing to bring it up - as @Jan M. said - resistance is futile. This line is also brought up under what I would largely consider at least partially false pretenses. TUG is legendary for giving out advice to never trust sales people - that if their lips are moving - they are lying. The very same people who use these lines - are some of the same people who are saying that sales lied to them. You cannot really talk out of both sides of your mouth with respect to this issue. Please don't try to tell us that anyone didn't know what they were doing. The retail and/or resale purchases used to rent points and/or game the entire system (megarenters) were far from the initial purchases made. Most of the owners were experts on how to use the system by the time they added points solely for rentals that went way beyond VIPP points levels. Are we really going to sit here and attempt to say that anyone here on TUG was duped into purchasing more retail points for rentals? I'm fairly certain everyone went into it with eyes wide open. Now that Wyndham is getting even more serious about shutting things down - I'm sure it hurts - the game is ending - it's been a good game for sure - I have enjoyed it myself with my resale contract for about two years - but it's coming to an end now.