Wyndham eliminating mega-renters

[Jan M.]

A lot of people sure have opinions on all of this, even those who don't own anything in Wyndham that I can see in profiles. It's hurtful to see all of the bloviating against "mega renters." I'm glad you all find it so amusing.

My sincere apologies to you or anyone else who feels I'm doing that. That was not my intent at all. You've set an excellent example for others in your attitude about this. You've said more than once that you accept that you had a good run and now it's done. I can see there are some people who can't find an ounce of compassion in themselves to understand that this is a hard blow and those impacted are certainly not happy.

What I've said about anything that's happening with the blackout lists, the letters, the separation of developer and resale points, all boils down to resistance is futile. All anyone who's impacted in any way can do is to figure out what their best plan is moving forward.

It's my opinion that counting on finding work arounds that can be exploited isn't going to be a good plan.

We have one person posting who has long resented the VIP owners for the benefits they paid to have that he and others don't get because they weren't willing to pay to get them.

We have another person stirring the pot because he would like nothing better than to see owners like you engage in a lawsuit against Wyndham.

 

[Eric B]

I really think your image of the megarenters booking all of the best things at 10-13 months and leaving others with the dregs is questionable. I think there are going to be a lot of owners who complain about renters (and I'm thinking of a lot of comments I see on FB) who are going to continue to be disappointed when they try to book prime locations and dates at anything other than 10-13 months and not finding the availability they want. They show up in April complaining that they can't book anything for summer. Well, duh.

The "average owner booking window is now 126 days out" according to Michael Brown in the Q2 2021 earnings call. If it's a normal distribution, a reasonable person would expect folks to start booking in appreciable quantities somewhere around twice that, or 8 months, barring externalities like prime locations and dates driving people that are happy to plan ahead to book those as soon as the 10-month window opens or in the ARP. I think you're spot on that the "average owner" will continue to be unhappy.

 

[Eric B]

[This] all boils down to resistance is futile.

This brought up images of Extra Holidays as The Borg for me. (Amusingly enough, YouTube played a Wyndham ad when I went there.)

 

[HitchHiker71]

I really think your image of the megarenters booking all of the best things at 10-13 months and leaving others with the dregs is questionable. I think there are going to be a lot of owners who complain about renters (and I'm thinking of a lot of comments I see on FB) who are going to continue to be disappointed when they try to book prime locations and dates at anything other than 10-13 months and not finding the availability they want. They show up in April complaining that they can't book anything for summer. Well, duh.

I definitely agree that there will always be owners who wait until the last minute - and then complain when there's no availability during prime season at demand resort locations. That said, let's use the example recently posted on FB forums where a megarenter used 160 GCs. Let's assume for a moment that the vast majority of those GCs were for rentals (150 out of 160). The net result with these new changes - at least for a subset of the most popular resort locations and the most popular reservation windows - is that 150 additional owners were able to book inventory vs ONE megarenter booking ALL of that inventory for commercial rental purposes. That's 150 happier owners. Let's assume there are 100 similar megarenters out there. That's 15,000 happier owners now. Just one example of course, but the point is - the changes in scope are putting the 80% majority ownership ahead of the 20%. That's good management best practice.

That said, unfortunately Wyndham, and in particular the Sales & Marketing division, has to some extent caused the very problem that are now attempting to resolve. That's unfortunate for the small subset, very small subset, of owners impacted, but the reality is that Wyndham is now singing to a different tune and looking toward the future - and the future doesn't include commercial rental enterprises by individual owners - it'll likely and increasingly only going to include rentals via the corporate entity (EH).

 

[Eric B]

it'll likely and increasingly only going to include rentals via the corporate entity (EH).

... resistance is futile! You will be assimilated!

 

[paxsarah]

is that 150 additional owners were able to book inventory vs ONE megarenter booking ALL of that inventory for commercial rental purposes. That's 150 happier owners.

Although let’s also remember that most of that renter’s bookings were for 2-night weekends at an average of <25k points. So that availability is either going to favor the minority of owners who have unlimited housekeeping, or people are going to book that availability as part of a longer reservation and fewer than 150 owners will benefit.

 

[ronparise]

Some information/ideas is better kept private. Stripping contracts and then returning them to Wyndham is one and then there are tricks that no one Wyndham or others need to know about. I just kept cashing cheques and wood only voice my issues Wyndham.

Not giving a 101 course on becoming a mega renter. Thankfully I had come across on my own a few tips and tricks and such that you or others had no idea about.
But yes in timeshares make as much money as you can as quickly as possible.

If one wants to mega rent now they just need to get access to the thousands of VIP accounts that are under used. With less competition it could be almost as good as before.

I remember a timeshare resale company transferring as many points as they could until Wyndham stopping that. Then for whatever reason Wyndham decided to give me almost unlimited points.

there were some things I didnt talk about even to my wife, Wyndhan buying back my stripped contracts was one of them. when my accounts were frozen their lawyer nearly fell of his chair when I told him how I had managed to have 90,000,000 points in reservations in a 20 million point account

 

[ronparise]

I really think your image of the megarenters booking all of the best things at 10-13 months and leaving others with the dregs is questionable. I think there are going to be a lot of owners who complain about renters (and I'm thinking of a lot of comments I see on FB) who are going to continue to be disappointed when they try to book prime locations and dates at anything other than 10-13 months and not finding the availability they want. They show up in April complaining that they can't book anything for summer. Well, duh.

Thank you , Take the mega renters out of the equation and there are still the same number of points chasing the same number of reservations

 

[troy12n]

there were some things I didnt talk about even to my wife, Wyndhan buying back my stripped contracts was one of them. when my accounts were frozen their lawyer nearly fell of his chair when I told him how I had managed to have 90,000,000 points in reservations in a 20 million point account

Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?

It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.

Until the music stopped...

 

[raygo123]

Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?

It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.

Until the music stopped...

Wyndham is a 24 hour dance hall. So get in line and buy your tickets! The circus will be leaving soon!

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk

 

[bogey21]

Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong...

The culprit was Wyndham. They made the rules. Owners managed within those rules...

Just an outsider's point of view. I am not, nor ever have been a Wyndham owner...

George

 

[am1]

Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?

It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.

Until the music stopped...

It is “business” not “friends”. Makes more sense when “show” is put in front of the words.

Wyndham sales does a lot of bad things and people here like to give them a pass.

 

[troy12n]

The culprit was Wyndham. They made the rules. Owners managed within those rules...

Just an outsider's point of view. I am not, nor ever have been a Wyndham owner...

You really don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not followed the posts about what was done. What, specifically was done, was not part of the rules. Some people were clearly operating outside the rules, and it was allowed to happen due to lax oversight and/or technological controls in place. In fact, Wyndham found out about most of the exploits accidentally because of some agent in Owner Care seeing something weird when a mega renter reported an issue with not being able to leverage a loophole. And it was shut down.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here or rub it in someone's face, just asking a question

 

[troy12n]

It is “business” not “friends”.

Uh huh, because depending on who you ask, it's not business... it's "just trying to cover the MF from the 20 million points I own"...

 

[am1]

Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?

It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.

Until the music stopped...

After the fact. Still years later and Wyndham seems to have the same issues and trying to stop it.

 

[troy12n]

After the fact. Still years later and Wyndham seems to have the same issues and trying to stop it.

You could say the same thing about cops and criminals I guess... a cat and mouse game. Who is smarter? Who carries the biggest stick?

 

[am1]

You really don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not followed the posts about what was done. What, specifically was done, was not part of the rules. Some people were clearly operating outside the rules, and it was allowed to happen due to lax oversight and/or technological controls in place. In fact, Wyndham found out about most of the exploits accidentally because of some agent in Owner Care seeing something weird when a mega renter reported an issue with not being able to leverage a loophole. And it was shut down.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here or rub it in someone's face, just asking a question

Any consolation I sold my Wyndham stock after the big drop in 2009 before it really recovered. In 2011. I did so as I felt the the company so poorly run. I was right but when it came to money wrong.

 

[am1]

You could say the same thing about cops and criminals I guess... a cat and mouse game. Who is smarter? Who carries the biggest stick?

Just like I learned playing poker which I used the earnings to buy timeshare. You do not need to be the smartest just the smartest at the table or know who the smartest is.

 

[ronparise]

Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?

It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.

Until the music stopped...

I dont see ethics involved at all, I owned all those points when I made those reservations and I paid all my maintenance fees. I didnt steal anything , or push any old ladies out of the way when in line to make reservations. You dont have a a problem (from an ethical standpoint) when you make a reservation with points you own, and somebody else that wanted it didnt get it why should I? I dont have an ethical problem owning a 2500 sq foot house for just my wife and I, when I have neighbors with kids in a crowded in to a 1200 sq feet

Wyndham accused me of taking advantage of them, and their smaller customers too, I didnt take it from them... and I wont from you... If there is anyone here that should have an ethics problem its Wyndham selling $300,000 condos for $2,000,000 and financing the purchase with 12% loans. to people that would be turned down for a mortgage loan for a personal residence.

and yea there's a little bragging there, but was mostly surprise that I was able to do what I did. Kinda like a lottery winner pleased that he is now a millionaire. , and by the way i shared what ever I learned from be and otherswith anyone that wanted to know

Years ago I suggested that if Wyndham wanted to end megarenting all the had to do was ask...they never did, until they did. Once they came clean with me and told me what they wanted (rather than just talking about irregularities in my accounts and the need for an audit. ) I gave it to them

Just know this,
what upset Wyndham the most was that their people bought back stripped contracts, and that we took advantage of them. I dont think they had any ethical concerns at all.....more like embarrassment and care about other owners, That never entered into the discussions

 

[dioxide45]

I dont see ethics involved at all, I owned all those points when I made those reservations and I paid all my maintenance fees. I didnt steal anything , or push any old ladies out of the way when in line to make reservations. You dont have a a problem (from an ethical standpoint) when you make a reservation with points you own, and somebody else that wanted it didnt get it why should I? I dont have an ethical problem owning a 2500 sq foot house for just my wife and I, when I have neighbors with kids in a crowded in to a 1200 sq feet

I have no skin in the game, but the comment about "paid all my maintenance fees" isn't necessarily accurate is it? Does Wyndham require prepaying MFs on points borrowed from future years?

 

[rickandcindy23]

And Ron didn't point out that there was no option to NOT book at a discount, even with my resale points. Someone else said that earlier and I think it's a great point. The system didn't have the separation before but does now.

 

[tschwa2]

I have no skin in the game, but the comment about "paid all my maintenance fees" isn't necessarily accurate is it? Does Wyndham require prepaying MFs on points borrowed from future years?

They didn't at that time. They still don't for borrowing but he used a feature called points pool that is a little different than borrowing but still did not require a prepayment of MF's.

 

[dgalati]

I dont see ethics involved at all, I owned all those points when I made those reservations and I paid all my maintenance fees. I didnt steal anything , or push any old ladies out of the way when in line to make reservations. You dont have a a problem (from an ethical standpoint) when you make a reservation with points you own, and somebody else that wanted it didnt get it why should I? I dont have an ethical problem owning a 2500 sq foot house for just my wife and I, when I have neighbors with kids in a crowded in to a 1200 sq feet

Wyndham accused me of taking advantage of them, and their smaller customers too, I didnt take it from them... and I wont from you... If there is anyone here that should have an ethics problem its Wyndham selling $300,000 condos for $2,000,000 and financing the purchase with 12% loans. to people that would be turned down for a mortgage loan for a personal residence.

and yea there's a little bragging there, but was mostly surprise that I was able to do what I did. Kinda like a lottery winner pleased that he is now a millionaire. , and by the way i shared what ever I learned from be and otherswith anyone that wanted to know

Years ago I suggested that if Wyndham wanted to end megarenting all the had to do was ask...they never did, until they did. Once they came clean with me and told me what they wanted (rather than just talking about irregularities in my accounts and the need for an audit. ) I gave it to them

Just know this,
what upset Wyndham the most was that their people bought back stripped contracts, and that we took advantage of them. I dont think they had any ethical concerns at all.....more like embarrassment and care about other owners, That never entered into the discussions

LOL! I compare this to the trading of deeds that worked so well to travel at close to $0 cost. Wyndham came around trying to collect $12/1000 on a negative balance that was created by them buying deeds with no current use year points. When Wyndham found out they purchased the deeds that created the negative balance they dropped the request for payment. Like you said one hand did not know what the others were doing.

 

[dgalati]

Tell that to the sales people who sold the timeshares and management who got them to target people to rent.

Nobody seems to care about how sales duped owners into buying. Especially Wyndham now that they are closing the loopholes that sales used to sell.

 

[rickandcindy23]

My sincere apologies to you or anyone else who feels I'm doing that. That was not my intent at all. You've set an excellent example for others in your attitude about this. You've said more than once that you accept that you had a good run and now it's done. I can see there are some people who can't find an ounce of compassion in themselves to understand that this is a hard blow and those impacted are certainly not happy.

What I've said about anything that's happening with the blackout lists, the letters, the separation of developer and resale points, all boils down to resistance is futile. All anyone who's impacted in any way can do is to figure out what their best plan is moving forward.

It's my opinion that counting on finding work arounds that can be exploited isn't going to be a good plan.

We have one person posting who has long resented the VIP owners for the benefits they paid to have that he and others don't get because they weren't willing to pay to get them.

We have another person stirring the pot because he would like nothing better than to see owners like you engage in a lawsuit against Wyndham.

Yes, I am ready to surrender. Nothing against you at all. I am pretty offended by some who would suggest we have stolen reservations from them. It's a ridiculous notion.

I can debunk that notion right this minute. We call a year out for Hono Koa reservations. We call the second the phones open, exactly 365 days ahead (leap year we book one day later for our reservations). Competition is fierce. But there are weeks sitting online for any other dates a person would want. Soleil Management allows us to book weeks 1-50, but weeks 1-12 are desirable because we can watch whales from our balcony. Most every other date, April-December are sitting online for the taking. So should those owners who don't bother to call at exactly a year out, the second the phone bank opens, whine because we got those weeks before they could get theirs at 6 months out? They know the rules, they just don't plan ahead. Timeshares require planning. If you don't do that, you will lose out.