WPORV MF increase for 2024 (8.8%!) [+ more 2024 MF discussions]

[daviator]

Looks like we need a new 2024 MF thread…
FIRST!!!
(this came much sooner than normal)
Weird, there is no due date listed.

2024 EOY MF: $1,844.47
(8.8% increase!)
2023 EOY MF: $1,695.95

The MF death spiral continues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am sort of expecting 10-15% increases on MauI, so I actually don’t think 8.8% is that bad. Consider what the inflation rate alone was over the past year or two.

Keeping housekeeping and other roles staffed has required big increases in compensation, and just about everything the resorts buy has increased significantly in cost. Insurance premiums are also going through the roof and this may continue to drive MFs higher in the future.

i'm not an apologist for higher MFs, but I see the crazy cost increases in my own business and it would be unrealistic to think that we wouldn’t be impacted by the same issues.

 

[rickandcindy23]

You can find the official thread HERE.

And hopefully it will stay as a MF thread.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I am sort of expecting 10-15% increases on MauI, so I actually don’t think 8.8% is that bad. Consider what the inflation rate alone was over the past year or two.

Keeping housekeeping and other roles staffed has required big increases in compensation, and just about everything the resorts buy has increased significantly in cost. Insurance premiums are also going through the roof and this may continue to drive MFs higher in the future.

i'm not an apologist for higher MFs, but I see the crazy cost increases in my own business and it would be unrealistic to think that we wouldn’t be impacted by the same issues.

When you consider that Hono Koa 2 bedrooms are about $2,698 in MF's, $401 in property taxes alone, I expect to see an increase like you are expecting.

 

[dioxide45]

And hopefully it will stay as a MF thread.

The problem is that the Vistana forum has always lacked a year to year MF discussion thread. This is something I like about the Marriott forum. @SueDonJ does a good job of maintaining the MF thread and moving chit chat to that discussion thread...

 

[DeniseM]

Do you mean like this?

*** Official 2023 Vistana Maintenance Fees Thread ***

Or this: Database

 

[dioxide45]

Do you mean like this?

*** Official 2023 Vistana Maintenance Fees Thread ***

Or this: Database

The problems is that that Vistana thread has always turned into a bunch of discussion and actual reports of fees were lost in the myriad of posts about whatever discussion came about of the MF increases. The database is great, but not everyone that reports in the thread also posts to the database. If you look at the Marriott 2023 Maintenance Fees thread, it is squeaky clean without any chit chat that you ask people not to post in the Vistana thread. That isn't because the Marriott folks actually listen/read the "rules" of the thread, they just have a separate 2023 MF's Discussion Thread. That maintenance fee discussion thread is also linked in the first post of the "official" MF thread.

 

[DanCali]

SBP original
1br 560.21
2br 1262.66

SDO
2br 691.94 eoy

Lakeside Terrace
2br 1800.71

@RLG how does that compare to 2023?

 

[cubigbird]

Since proposed budget has always been the same as actual billed, the MF, including reserves and property tax, SVR Lakes 2BR LO is up 19.56% over 2023.

2023 was $1368.78
2024 is $1636.52, increase of $267.74 or 19.56%.

An increase of 19.56% for a property like SVR is unacceptable in my opinion. It just goes to show that costs constraints by boards are not being implemented.

 

[cubigbird]

SVR Lakes 2BR L/O (High Season)
2024 Operating Assessment $1,161.65; Increase of $194.69 or 20.13%
2024 Replacement Reserves $317.37; Increase of $43.83 or16.02%
2024 Estimated Real Estate Tax $157.50; Increase of $29.22 or 22.78%
2024 Total: $1,636.52; Increase of $267.74 or +19.56%

2023 Operating Assessment $966.96
2023 Replacement Reserves $273.54
2023 Estimated Real Estate Tax $128.28
2023 Total: $1,368.78

For a property like SVR, that’s an absolutely unacceptable increase %. What was the delinquency / bad debt % reported at in the budget? Curious to what it will jump to now. The model works until you run out of other people’s money…..

 

[DavidnRobin]

Do you mean like this?

*** Official 2023 Vistana Maintenance Fees Thread ***

Or this: Database

I tried to update database with 2024 WPORV - returned an error
@hypnotiq


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[VacationForever]

For a property like SVR, that’s an absolutely unacceptable increase %. What was the delinquency / bad debt % reported at in the budget? Curious to what it will jump to now. The model works until you run out of other people’s money…..

You got me pulling out my 2023 statement and I realized that I had used Operating Fee instead of Total Net Operating fee, i.e. subtract revenue that SVR collected. The numbers aren't as bad, still up 11.53% overall. Operating fee went up 8.76%.

 

[dioxide45]

You got me pulling out my 2023 statement and I realized that I had used Operating Fee instead of Total Net Operating fee, i.e. subtract revenue that SVR collected. The numbers aren't as bad, still up 11.53% overall. Operating fee went up 8.76%.

I double checked my numbers to make sure I was using Net Operating Fee, and I was. So the 18%+ looks to be accurate

 

[cubigbird]

I double checked my numbers to make sure I was using Net Operating Fee, and I was. So the 18%+ looks to be accurate

If that’s accurate, that’s absolutely unacceptable. What was the delinquency % reported at? Can’t wait see what it jumps to. Get ready for more resale weeks to hit the market.

 

[dioxide45]

If that’s accurate, that’s absolutely unacceptable. What was the delinquency % reported at? Can’t wait see what it jumps to. Get ready for more resale weeks to hit the market.

I am not sure they reported a delinquency rate, but bad debt expense is $690,520 or about $40 for a 2BR unit. So from a dollar standpoint, 3.4% of my fees are covering bad debt.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Do the increases in the Orlando Vistana have anything to do with an increase in required reserves by FL law after the disastrous sinking of an entire condo into the sand a few years ago? Isn't that what is being discussed in the Marriott forum on the outrageous increases?

 

[VacationForever]

Do the increases in the Orlando Vistana have anything to do with an increase in required reserves by FL law after the disastrous sinking of an entire condo into the sand a few years ago? Isn't that what is being discussed in the Marriott forum on the outrageous increases?

I have never gotten correspondence from SVR about increase in required reserves. My reserves bill went up 16% but Jeremy's SVV reserves went up 40%.

 

[Eric B]

I am not sure they reported a delinquency rate, but bad debt expense is $690,520 or about $40 for a 2BR unit. So from a dollar standpoint, 3.4% of my fees are covering bad debt.

I kind of feel like, if I'm paying 3.4% of my fees to cover bad debt on weeks the developer winds up using for rentals or exchanges, I ought to get an extra 3.4% SOs to my account for the week I own and am paying the remainder (e.g., 83,754 for a 2 BR Prime SVV vice 81,000). I know the rules don't allow for that, but it seems like it would be a better way to set things up - we're paying for those weeks after all.

 

[daviator]

I was under the impression that many or most of the properties have agreements with MVC where MVC makes good on the delinquent MFs in exchange for being handed back those VOIs after they are foreclosed upon. i know that’s the case at the Vistana properties where I own. But it’s possible that MVC doesn’t do this deal with properties with high delinquency rates or maybe properties where they own a lot of inventory.

 

[dioxide45]

I was under the impression that many or most of the properties have agreements with MVC where MVC makes good on the delinquent MFs in exchange for being handed back those VOIs after they are foreclosed upon. i know that’s the case at the Vistana properties where I own. But it’s possible that MVC doesn’t do this deal with properties with high delinquency rates or maybe properties where they own a lot of inventory.

Perhaps this is their play to try and get more inventory for the trust. The problem is they will mostly get the low season weeks that will further drive up trust point maintenance fees. People who own prime seasons will likely still see value in their ownership even with the higher fees. Those agreements also grant MVC the option to pause the program at any time, as they did early on in the pandemic.

 

[Eric B]

I was under the impression that many or most of the properties have agreements with MVC where MVC makes good on the delinquent MFs in exchange for being handed back those VOIs after they are foreclosed upon. i know that’s the case at the Vistana properties where I own. But it’s possible that MVC doesn’t do this deal with properties with high delinquency rates or maybe properties where they own a lot of inventory.

Perhaps this is their play to try and get more inventory for the trust. The problem is they will mostly get the low season weeks that will further drive up trust point maintenance fees. People who own prime seasons will likely still see value in their ownership even with the higher fees. Those agreements also grant MVC the option to pause the program at any time, as they did early on in the pandemic.

I don't believe I've ever seen a budget line item for repayment of delinquent MFs to make up for the bad debt. There is a line on the proposed budget I just got for SVV Key West about the inventory purchase agreement that gives the Developer sole discretion on what unit weeks it wants to purchase. They got $40,209 through that program in 2022 while the 2024 bad debt expense line is $238,123 (I don't have the 2022 budget handy). The proposed budget also includes a footnote on the bad debt line stating that the "Reserve for bad debt includes an allowance for unpaid Club Dues." That isn't included in the proposed budget for WSJ VGV and makes me wonder why the Association is compensating the Developer for unpaid Club Dues - shouldn't those be a bad debt expense for the Developer rather than the Association? When it comes right down to it, the Developer (Vistana/MVW) is the entity collecting the Club Dues as well as the maintenance fees and quite likely doesn't send the Club Dues to the Association then ask for them back. There's one thing that someone might be able to get Marriott to budge on in the budgeting.

 

[dioxide45]

I don't believe I've ever seen a budget line item for repayment of delinquent MFs to make up for the bad debt. There is a line on the proposed budget I just got for SVV Key West about the inventory purchase agreement that gives the Developer sole discretion on what unit weeks it wants to purchase. They got $40,209 through that program in 2022 while the 2024 bad debt expense line is $238,123 (I don't have the 2022 budget handy). The proposed budget also includes a footnote on the bad debt line stating that the "Reserve for bad debt includes an allowance for unpaid Club Dues." That isn't included in the proposed budget for WSJ VGV and makes me wonder why the Association is compensating the Developer for unpaid Club Dues - shouldn't those be a bad debt expense for the Developer rather than the Association? When it comes right down to it, the Developer (Vistana/MVW) is the entity collecting the Club Dues as well as the maintenance fees and quite likely doesn't send the Club Dues to the Association then ask for them back. There's one thing that someone might be able to get Marriott to budge on in the budgeting.

I wonder if they just use the monies recovered from the agreement to offset the bad debt in whatever year they get the money back from Vistana?

 

[Eric B]

I wonder if they just use the monies recovered from the agreement to offset the bad debt in whatever year they get the money back from Vistana?

There's actually a line item on the Revenue side for Acquisition Revenue. In 2024 it is estimated at $227,515.

 

[daviator]

I don't believe I've ever seen a budget line item for repayment of delinquent MFs to make up for the bad debt. There is a line on the proposed budget I just got for SVV Key West about the inventory purchase agreement that gives the Developer sole discretion on what unit weeks it wants to purchase. They got $40,209 through that program in 2022 while the 2024 bad debt expense line is $238,123 (I don't have the 2022 budget handy). The proposed budget also includes a footnote on the bad debt line stating that the "Reserve for bad debt includes an allowance for unpaid Club Dues." That isn't included in the proposed budget for WSJ VGV and makes me wonder why the Association is compensating the Developer for unpaid Club Dues - shouldn't those be a bad debt expense for the Developer rather than the Association? When it comes right down to it, the Developer (Vistana/MVW) is the entity collecting the Club Dues as well as the maintenance fees and quite likely doesn't send the Club Dues to the Association then ask for them back. There's one thing that someone might be able to get Marriott to budge on in the budgeting.

During the pandemic I remember that the WDW board announced such a deal with MVW, where essentially the Association wouldn’t have to worry about unpaid MFs in exchange for handing repossessions back to MVW. I think I remember reading about a similar agreement at WKORv. So when the new financial reports from those properties are released later this year, I will have to look to see if bad debt has been essentially nullified.

 

[dioxide45]

There's actually a line item on the Revenue side for Acquisition Revenue. In 2024 it is estimated at $227,515.

Okay, I didn't actually look at the proposed budget (for SVV Key West). So it looks like it nearly wipes out the bad debt expense.

 

[Venter]

Received my Lakeside Terrace invoice.

I found it interesting that there are 2 MFs.

2 bedroom shoulder season $1060.30
2 bedroom regular season $1800.71

Is this the same at Mountain Vista and Westin Riverfront?