Worldmark-too good to be true?

[CaliDave]

I think the point Perry and others are making is..
Galena is not a top tourist destination. WM should be buying high demand locations. If you were to see the Top 1000 vacation destinations in the world, there is no way Galena would be anywhere on that list. I doubt it would make the top 1000 in the US.
I had never heard of Galena before WM bought a resort there.
I just looked on Expedia. Galena doesn't even have a Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt or Starwood Hotel. So why would anyone think a timeshare would do any better? Galena has 5 hotels on Expedia.. They are all 2 star .. sounds like a prime vacation destination to me.

WM is doing a disservice to the 1000's of owners that are expecting resorts in top locations.
Eventually this will affect trade power at RCI and II. RCI & II give top trading power to WM credits.. in turn WM will give RCI and II , 1000's of low demand Galena weeks to the exchange companies. Sounds like disaster wating to happen for WM owners.

 

[boaterkathy]

CaliDave and I have settled our differences off the main board, but I just wanted to reply to a couple more things. There are no huge hotel chains in Galena, because it is not that type of an area. Accomodations run more in the line of condos, bed and breakfasts, and other smaller hotels and motels.
The area does have a lot to offer, though.
Check out this site from USA today......10 most beautiful places in America!

http://www.usaweekend.com/03_issues/030518/030518springtravel.html

My own stomping grounds along the Upper Mississippi are number 3!!

I realize that not everybody is going to travel to this area for a vacation, but if they tried it, they might actually love it. I know I wonder about a few of the other destinations that WM has, but I am not going to say anything negative until I have checked them out myself.

 

[melschey]

CaliDave and I have settled our differences off the main board, but I just wanted to reply to a couple more things. There are no huge hotel chains in Galena, because it is not that type of an area. Accomodations run more in the line of condos, bed and breakfasts, and other smaller hotels and motels.
The area does have a lot to offer, though.
Check out this site from USA today......10 most beautiful places in America!

http://www.usaweekend.com/03_issues/030518/030518springtravel.html

My own stomping grounds along the Upper Mississippi are number 3!!

I realize that not everybody is going to travel to this area for a vacation, but if they tried it, they might actually love it. I know I wonder about a few of the other destinations that WM has, but I am not going to say anything negative until I have checked them out myself.

The majority of the WM resorts on the west coast would not be considered destination resorts in my opinion.
Places like Depoe Bay, Gleneden, and Discovery Bay have no resorts like Marriott and such, but are very hard to get into.

What makes it work is we have a large number of drive to resorts in desirable locations and Trend West actively markets the sale of credits on the west coast.

I can see two problems with Galena the first is that TrendWest is not even trying to sell credits in the Galena area, instead they are selling the credits generated by Galena mainly on the west coast and guess what the people buying those credits are planning on using them to get into places like Depoe Bay not Galena. TrendWest should try to sell credits in the area of the resort that generates those credits.

Second drive to resorts should be close to other drive to resorts. A destination resort like Orlando presents no problem as people will fly there, however not many people will fly a great distance to visit Galena.

I am not knocking Galena it looks like a desirable resort in a good location, if there were a few other resorts close by and if TrendWest would actively try to sell the credits generated by resorts such as Galena in the area that generates them instead of selling them on the west coast

 

[cotraveller]

My own stomping grounds along the Upper Mississippi are number 3!!

I realize that not everybody is going to travel to this area for a vacation, but if they tried it, they might actually love it.

Now Kathy, don't go pushing Galena too much. It will become way too popular and those of us who like it there will have a hard time getting reservations when all those outsiders start arriving.

Second drive to resorts should be close to other drive to resorts.

This is a chicken and the egg problem. When the first WorldMark resort opened in Oregon there were no others nearby either. Or the first one in Utah, Colorado, or any other new area.

 

[melschey]

This is a chicken and the egg problem. When the first WorldMark resort opened in Oregon there were no others nearby either. Or the first one in Utah, Colorado, or any other new area.

True, but TrendWest still tried to sell the credits on the west coast not somewhere else. My main gripe is not the Galena Resort, it is that TrendWest is not trying to sell the credits in the Galena area, instead they are selling the credits generated by Galena mainly on the west coast.

 

[roadsister]

True, but TrendWest still tried to sell the credits on the west coast not somewhere else. My main gripe is not the Galena Resort, it is that TrendWest is not trying to sell the credits in the Galena area, instead they are selling the credits generated by Galena mainly on the west coast.

Could I ask if you know they are not selling credits in that area or in that part of the midwest?

 

[PerryM]

No vacancies – not!

I just looked up Galena, Branson, Lake Of The Ozarks, and Grand Lake and for January, February, March, and April only about 10% of the available units are reserved for 2006. That’s 90% empty.

Ok, so who the heck wants to visit snow blown cornfields during that time – no body that’s what the vacancies say. There is 1/3 of the year wasted.

Well I did the same with May, June, July, and August and its about the same – a ghost town. Another 1/3 or 2/3's of a year wasted.

September, October, November, and December faired no better – about 90% vacancies. That's another 1/3 or 3/3's of a year wasted - why is that an entire year?

Let’s face it the WM Midwest destinations are a disaster – well to us owners.

TrendWest and Cendant, however, found building and buying bankrupt condos in cornfields have made them a fortune!

So if folks buying WM credits aren’t going to vacation in Midwest cornfields just where are they vacationing? Maui, South Lake Tahoe, Steamboat, Whistler, Orlando and other hot destinations is where those new credits are being used.

Thus in lies the problem with cornfield condos – they sit empty and their credits are being used in already oversold resorts and the problem is just getting worse.

Think TW will stop this addiction to buying bankrupt cornfield condos? Just like a drug addict they need help – in the form of an independent WM board.

Does anyone here think that the WM board of directors gives a whit about us owners? What we are witnessing here is as close to malfeasance as a company can get – bordering on criminal in my mind.

 

[ladycody]

I just looked up Galena, Branson, Lake Of The Ozarks, and Grand Lake and for January, February, March, and April only about 10% of the available units are reserved for 2006. That’s 90% empty.

Ok, so who the heck wants to visit snow blown cornfields during that time – no body that’s what the vacancies say. There is 1/3 of the year wasted.

Well I did the same with May, June, July, and August and its about the same – a ghost town. Another 1/3 or 2/3's of a year wasted.

September, October, November, and December faired no better – about 90% vacancies. That's another 1/3 or 3/3's of a year wasted - why is that an entire year?

Let’s face it the WM Midwest destinations are a disaster – well to us owners.

I know this is an old thread...but found it and got irked.

No...maybe Galena isnt the top location for many WM owners...but then again...neither are many of the locations that I utilize. I use Seaside, Eagle Crest, Gleneden, Leavenworth and plan on using many others in my drive-to range(including McCall, Lake Chelan, and the Running Y)...and NONE of them are properties I would have thought of traveling to when I lived in Massachusetts. Most of them have lots of availability except for their highest seasons (Lev at Xmas and Coast in midsummer).

The concept of WM revolves around providing both flexiblity and drive-to resort options for it's owners. So, as someone else said...it's not the Galena resort that is a mistake...it simply needs to be marketed to those that could/would use it as a drive-to location.

Yes...a few more prime destinations would be welcome...but again...this club has never been geared to those who have tons of money. Yes...some owners are more than comfortable...but TW is predomininantly geared for middle-class america...which is why those drive-to's are so appealing to so many buyers.

I frankly cant afford to fly every time I want to get out of town. TW provides me with a multitude of nearby locations that I can get away to without spending $1500 on airfare for my family. And I can get away 4 or 5 times a year between my credits, bonus time, and inventory specials!!! When I choose to go somewhere else...I can pick some of our other locations or trade. Even then...I dont expect my Kihei resort to be the Grand Wailea...I expect it to be a home-away-from-home on a beautiful Island in Hawaii.

While I think some consideration, of course, needs to be made with regards to resort placement...I that if someone wants high end resorts like Disney or Marriott's and they want them all to be in destination locations that the world is familiar with...that's ok...but they oughta go buy Disney or Marriott... so they could be happy with their options. Doesnt that make sense?

I wouldnt have been able to buy WM at $30,000 for my current ownership. I (and others like me) are who they are marketing to....and it makes TS ownership usable and affordable for me....and I thank them for it.

The problem is that they need to start focusing sales in the areas where they build the resorts and get that drive-to percentage of owners to utilize resorts like Galena and LOTO and Branson to compensate for the lack of fly-ins. I'd use them if they were drive to's for me!!! In Arizona...we have resorts that have loads of availability (Big Pine and Rancho Vistoso and Bison Ranch). I know a ton of people in the Pheonix area who are familiar with those areas and would love to have drive-to timeshare ownership there... but they've never even heard of TW. There is no sales office in the pheonix area...just overgard and tuscon. So I dont think it's the resort locations...it's that they're too restricted on where they market and sell those resorts.

Anyway...WM works for me. (Sorry...kinda got on a rant there.)

 

[JudyS]

I believe that the Galena resort is one of the closest timeshares to where I live. So, you'd think I'd be a prime person to market it to. However, when I've looked into tours of Worldmark properties (with discounted stays), they were not offered to people in my state. So, I have to agree that Worldmark is not marketing this property to people near it.

Perry, does Worldmark actually let you see how much of a resort is booked? That's impressive.

Boaterkathy, I'd be interested in Galena tourism information, if there's any on the web.

... that there are many resorts already in the system that are very worthwhile vacation opportunities where the credits have been established fairly and can not be changed ....

But, if WM acquires a lot of low-demand resorts, and sells points based on the ownership of those resorts, won't it get harder & harder to book the high-demand resorts?

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

..
But, if WM acquires a lot of low-demand resorts, and sells points based on the ownership of those resorts, won't it get harder & harder to book the high-demand resorts?

Precisely the point.

Let's review the situation again. Bear in mind that Trendwest establishes the number of available points it can sell from the inventory it builds. Building a resort creates points for TW to sell.

Worldmark has some high demand resorts in popular locations - those resorts are fully booked and could accept more reservations. So, based on demand that is the place where new resorts should be added.

But it's more expensive to build resorts in those locations. So TW maximizes its profits by building resorts in less popular locales. If they can produce the same number of points for sale at less cost, it's clear which direcion they should go.

So, as Perry points out, what happens is that demand for the popular locales increases, making it harder to reserve at those locations. Meanwhile, the newer resorts, that were the source of the new points inventory, remain unoccupied.

I can't see the situation getting any better - and it will undoubtedly get worse. At some point, WM owners will find that reserving places such as Maui will be like Club Intrawest members trying to reserve in Whistler during prime ski season.

 

[cotraveller]

Don't forget that in recent years new WorldMark resorts have also been announced, opened, or significantly expanded in such low demand areas as Las Vegas, Anaheim, Solvang, Yellowstone, San Francisco, Seattle, etc., etc. Unfortunately, you tend to hear a lot about the negatives some perceive and little about the positives.

 

[Bill4728]

There are many TS companies which have a concentration of resorts in certain area. Worldmark has mostly west coast, FF east coast, Hilton has Hawaii, LV and Florida. For any of these companies to expand to other areas of the country is tricky. They have to build resorts in areas were most of their current members may not be interested in vacationing. But these companies want to grow and become national so building in a place like Galena is a start.

For them to build there and not market there is the real problem. TW should be marketing in IL and AZ and they don't seem to be. Opening resorts in an area where our current owners may not wish to go isn't smart unless you (TW) find new owners who do wish to visit those areas.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

... For them to build there and not market there is the real problem. TW should be marketing in IL and AZ and they don't seem to be. Opening resorts in an area where our current owners may not wish to go isn't smart unless you (TW) find new owners who do wish to visit those areas.

Now that's the hooker that suggests they are building in those locales because they are cheap places to produce inventorty to sell. If they were building those units to truly expand their geographic coverage, they would be marketing them locally - within drive time of the resort.

As long as TW builds in the Midwest but markets the newly created Points in the West (where there will not be much demand for those properties), it looks as if it's just a cheaper way to generate Points inventory to sell.

 

[spatenfloot]

As long as TW builds in the Midwest but markets the newly created Points in the West (where there will not be much demand for those properties), it looks as if it's just a cheaper way to generate Points inventory to sell.

TW is not currently building or acquiring properties in the Midwest so that isn't it. The Galena resort was supposed to be part of a drive to area with Wisconson Dells but things did not work out.

Besides, what is desirable as a vacation destination depends on the person. Not everyone wants to visit the Oregon coast but it is pretty popular with most current owners because they live nearby and like the proximity. Some people love the Galena area. TW can't market it as a drive to destination without more resorts, and the west coast owners don't want more resorts in that area because they want to go to CA and OR. You can't have it both ways.

Anyway, I think the new Yellowstone resort will be very popular.

 

[spatenfloot]

Perry, does Worldmark actually let you see how much of a resort is booked? That's impressive.

At the end of the owner's education manual is a chart showing occupancy for all resorts for the entire year. You can access it from the WM website.

 

[boaterkathy]

I believe that the Galena resort is one of the closest timeshares to where I live. So, you'd think I'd be a prime person to market it to. However, when I've looked into tours of Worldmark properties (with discounted stays), they were not offered to people in my state. So, I have to agree that Worldmark is not marketing this property to people near it.
Boaterkathy, I'd be interested in Galena tourism information, if there's any on the web.

Hi Judy, Here are some websites on Galena. Also if you go to the WorldMark 4M page, there are reviews and activities etc. listed for the resorts. On the WM main page you can look at the resort section which shows pictures, too. You can read about some of the things to do in Galena and in the area. Lots of golf courses(high rated ones),ski area and alpine slides, spas, tons of unique shops, wineries in area, Mississippi river probably a half hour away, Gambling within a half hour, National Mississippi River Museum and Acquarium a half hour away........85% of the buildings in the town of Galena are on the national register of historic places. (a few things about Galena)

WM website - http://forums.trendwest.com/ubb-threads/ubbthreads.php?Cat=

http://www.villageprofile.com/illinois/galena/galena1.html
http://www.galenachamber.com/
http://galena.com/
http://www.granthome.com/
http://www.galena.org/
http://www.chestnutmtn.com/
http://www.cityofgalena.org/
http://www.tripadvisor.com/AllReviews-g36022-Galena_Illinois.html (This has some articles that you can link to also.)
http://www.eagleridge.com/

Hope these are some help. These are mainly for Galena. Dubuque, Iowa, is about a half hour away where you will find the Gambling, Mississippi River Museum, etc.

*

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Besides, what is desirable as a vacation destination depends on the person. Not everyone wants to visit the Oregon coast but it is pretty popular with most current owners because they live nearby and like the proximity. Some people love the Galena area. TW can't market it as a drive to destination without more resorts, and the west coast owners don't want more resorts in that area because they want to go to CA and OR. You can't have it both ways..

I'm not arruing that at all. The question is occupancy vs demand. As Perry posted, the resorts have large vacancy. So, while there are undoubtedly people who love the Galena area, there is not enough demand for Worldmark Galena to come close to filling the resort.

Taht would bie OK if TW were just getting into the area and was in the early stages of a marketing program to increase local occupancy. From earlier posts, TW is not doing so.

Now put a bit of deduction to work here. Why would TW build a resort in an area where they don't have a presence and then not pursue an active marketing program to fill that resort?

 

[mtngal]

From what was said at the last annual meeting, Trendwest did try to establish a sales office in Chicago, but ran into regulatory problems with the state. Will they go back to trying to open a sales office there or not, who knows?

Personally, I'd love to visit Galena, and I wish that Trendwest would open a sales office in Chicago and build more resorts in the mid-west (maybe Michigan UP or ???) so that I could visit that area again some day (on the other hand, if they did sell in Chicago, I'd never be able to get into Galena). I also wish they would open a sales office either in New York or New England and put some resorts in Boston, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine and places like that - I'd reserve 13 months out to go east to see the fall colors.

By the way, my favorite resort is Bass Lake, and I don't see any Hiltons, Marriotts or Hyatts there, either. It really is different strokes for different folks - I hope that WorldMark never really tries to go head to head with Marriott because I like it the way it is, a comfortable, affordable, flexible way of traveling with lots of places close to outstanding scenery and national parks.

 

[gobajanow]

I've owned a measly 6000 credits with WM for 6-7 years and I love it. About every other year we plan a weeklong vacation and book 13 months in advance (Coral Baja, Monterrey, South Shore...)
In between we use alot of Bonus Time. I was often able to get Pismo Beach and visit my student at Cal Poly as well as Monterry as a stopover on the way down, my student in LA was able to get many nights at Dolphins cove when she was between apts or dorms as well as spending a day or two on several occasions at Big Bear with friends, the San Francisco location was great for several SF seminars , my Berkeley grad student often went to Windsor with friends for Napa wine outings and absolutely loved it each time, I love Windsor for quick getaways and the youngster loves the heated year round pool which made a great New Years celebration, midweek I've been able to nab Reno and Tahoe to extend our ski trips, Clear Lake and Angels camp were fun and often available (loved the caving at Angels camp).
This summer I'm extending my stays in Cabos (Pueblo Bonito) by scoring two days at Coral Baja, last summer for a Cabo family reunion I was able to get several different nights to fill in gaps the relatives had by booking Coral Baja, Oceanside was a great stopover on the drive to Cabo and also a great place to spend a few days for Boogie Boarding and Lego land, Rosarito Beach has been a fun place for a day or three and also a stopover on the drive down Baja, Reno gave a great place for my friends and I to help out with the presidential campaign last November and drive people to the polls, Las Vegas was fabulous, etc...
Wm flexibility has changed my life.
A great way to use WM is to book with RCI w/in 45 days of trip and ANY accomodation only cost us 3000 credits (think it has gone up?).
Very happy with Worldmark!

 

[PA-]

From what was said at the last annual meeting, Trendwest did try to establish a sales office in Chicago, but ran into regulatory problems with the state. Will they go back to trying to open a sales office there or not, who knows?

Personally, I'd love to visit Galena, and I wish that Trendwest would open a sales office in Chicago and build more resorts in the mid-west (maybe Michigan UP or ???) so that I could visit that area again some day (on the other hand, if they did sell in Chicago, I'd never be able to get into Galena). I also wish they would open a sales office either in New York or New England and put some resorts in Boston, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine and places like that - I'd reserve 13 months out to go east to see the fall colors.

By the way, my favorite resort is Bass Lake, and I don't see any Hiltons, Marriotts or Hyatts there, either. It really is different strokes for different folks - I hope that WorldMark never really tries to go head to head with Marriott because I like it the way it is, a comfortable, affordable, flexible way of traveling with lots of places close to outstanding scenery and national parks.

There's a right way and a wrong way to expand into a new area. The right way is to build a resort that has universal appeal, so that has immediate demand from existing owners. And you build a sales center at that resort with universal appeal, so that you can invite nearby residents to attend a presentation. As those nearby residents buy into the club with dreams of visiting hawaii, california and Florida, you begin to build drive-to locations for them. Then they wind up using their credits locally, as they realize they can't afford to fly cross country every year.

You don't do it the other way around. Can Trendwest recover, and build enough resorts in the midwest to build a customer base in the midwest that will utilize their local resorts? Certainly. But it won't mean that was the right way to do it. There have been many years of underutilization.

Bass Lake may be your favorite resort, but that doesn't mean you would have bought into WOrldmark if they didn't have the coastal resorts and others near you that you had heard of, like Palm Springs and Las Vegas, etc.

Jim Pappas, as part of his campaign platform for the BOD last year, proposed a system of rewarding Trendwest based on utilization of new resorts. Perhaps a better way is to let Trendwest build wherever they want, but only allow them to sell the credits as they're used. So if the demand is truly for 10 units, let them put 10 units into Worldmark inventory and let them wait 5 years or more to put the rest into inventory (and get the corresponding credits to sell). That'll change their priorities in a hurry.

As long as Trendwest runs the Worldmark board, nothing will change.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

By the way, my favorite resort is Bass Lake, and I don't see any Hiltons, Marriotts or Hyatts there, either. It really is different strokes for different folks - I hope that WorldMark never really tries to go head to head with Marriott because I like it the way it is, a comfortable, affordable, flexible way of traveling with lots of places close to outstanding scenery and national parks.

I get the sense that you're missing the point. The OP ackowledged that WM has a lot of resorts, the convenience of the system, ec. He wanted to know the hiddien warts, if you will. And one of the hidden warts is that TW leads WM by the nose, and how TWls interests are not the same as owner interests.

And one aree where this gap shows is how and where TW is electing to build additional resorts.

The issue is not how desirable or nice the resorts or locales might be, or if WM provides enjoyable vacation experiences for particular individuals. The issue is vacant units, and that TW is adding resorts that sit vacant because there is not enough demand to fill the resort. That can only mean that more points are being sold from that resort than are being used to trade back into that resort.

The logical corrollary is that there are resorts for which fewer points have been sold than are being used to trade back into those units. IF TW were respoinding to member demand, it would build more resorts or expand existing resorts in those locales, to bring ponts generated vs points used into balance for those locations.

But TW is not doing that - it is building resorts with low occupancy in areas where it is cheaper to build. It is then using its sales program to sell those points in existing areas (West Coast) where there is low demand for the new resort, and high demand for the resorts that are already highest demanded.

In the end members pay the price in greater difficulty securing reservations in the high demand resorts.

As a person who enjoys the resorts that are not highly demanded, you absolutely should be thriilled with Worldmark. TW is building resorts in places you want to visit, and there is little demand for reservations for those properties. You can probably visit those places almost any time by using the last minute reservation policy. You couldn't have it any better.

 

[cotraveller]

While the Trendwest expansion plans will not fit the mold that all would postulate as a better way, there is no arguing with their success. From a start of 2 units in 1989 they have built a system which now comprises over 4400 units in around 60 locations supported by a base of 231,000+ owners. The resorts are consistently highly rated, overall occupancy rates are consistently high, and maintenance fees are consistently among the lowest in the industry.

As for Galena, even though it does have low occupancy, it is a small resort and places less of a burden on the system than some of the larger west coast resorts such as Windsor which also have low occupancy. As mtngal pointed out, local politics stopped the expansion in the Galena area, not Trendwest. I doubt that those plans have been abandoned, just delayed.

In the meantime, some of the Galena units are used to fulfill exchange requirements with RCI and II. Some see that as a negative since when they have a Galena unit to trade with they complain about low trading power. Others see it as a positive, since it means that fewer desirable coastal properties are being used for exchanges. It’s like that old saying, you can’t please all of the people all of the time. But the track record has been and continues to be pretty good. San Francisco, Seattle, Solvang, Victoria, Yellowstone, . . .

 

[RichM]

I think it will be very interesting to see the credit values for Yellowstone and Anaheim. I'm disappointed that Indio is at 11K for a 2BR red season as I don't see the justification. I'm still aghast at the 30K per week rate for the 4BR Presidential - as long as someone is willing to book it WITH CREDITS, then it's not such a big deal. However, if it's continually booked on Bonus time or Inventory special, then it's a huge burden on other resorts to have 1 unit that accounts for 3-4 "average" units having their representative credits used elsewhere.

I can't imagine what Anaheim will be at with all the demand there. It will have 4BR Presidentials, too.

___________________
WorldMark Owners' Community -

- www.wmowners.com

 

[mtngal]

Bass Lake may be your favorite resort, but that doesn't mean you would have bought into WOrldmark if they didn't have the coastal resorts and others near you that you had heard of, like Palm Springs and Las Vegas, etc.

Let's see, when I bought, I bought BECAUSE of Bass Lake - it was one of 2 resorts I really wanted to visit. The other was Eagle Crest, though I still haven't managed to go there yet. Next on my list at the time was Discovery Bay (haven't been there, either). Las Vegas, Monterey, Big Bear, Oceanside, Angels Camp didn't exist yet. So your assumption that coastal resorts attracted me to WM is wrong (and Palm Springs leaves me totally bored).

 

[melschey]

and the west coast owners don't want more resorts in that area because they want to go to CA and OR. You can't have it both ways.

Anyway, I think the new Yellowstone resort will be very popular.

As a West coast owner I feel that TW can build all the resorts they want in the midwest as long as they market the points for those resorts in the Midwest.

What we are complaining about is generating cheep points in the MidWest
and then selling the points in Washington, Oregon and California instead of marketing them in the MidWest. The result is that it is harder to get into our popular west coast resorts while the midwest resorts set largely vacant. Anyone that looks at the WorldWark vacant night grid can see that this is true.