Why would anyone buy?

[BoBird1314]

Looking at timeshares available - why would anyone buy a timeshare with annual fees over $1000?
The cost of most fees are higher than actually renting a location. Sure you get a set schedule, but the annual costs are outrageous for the most part.

There are many timeshare facilities with reasonable annual fees - which make them cost effective to own, deposit, and have an annual vacation - less than what most timeshare annual fees cost.

Can anyone explain the reasoning for high annual fees?
Cheers,

Timeshares can make sense if you buy and use smart. Whether maintenance fees are "outrageous" can depend upon location (near ocean locations have higher costs) and amenities. Maintenance fees can also depend upon whether who controls the homeowners' association. For example, I own two weeks each year at Maui Banyan Vacation Club (Soliel Management) in Kihei, Maui. I purchased my weeks on the resale market for what I felt were reasonable amounts. There are 18 Maui Banyan Vacation Club timeshare units in the 176-unit Maui Banyan development in South Kihei. The timeshare units are all two bedroom, two bathroom units (one bedroom, with living room, kitchen, large lanai, washer/dryer and adjoining lockout studio). The resort has two pools, BBQs, tennis court, covered parking, etc. The resort is across the street from an excellent beach and within walking distance of approximately 20 restaurants (although our favorite oceanfront restaurant closed during the pandemic). The maintenance fees are cheaper than average for Maui, perhaps because the homeowners' association is controlled by the 150+ private condo owners that have an interest in having the maintenance fees being high enough to keep the resort common facilities maintained in decent shape, but within reason. Based upon my research, I know of no Gold Crown level resort in Hawaii that has maintenance fees under $1,000/week. The maintenance fees (with separately billed taxes) for Maui Banyan Vacation Club are under $1,400 per use week. The "special" bargain rental fees available for Maui Banyan through Interval International during high season range from $3,600 to $4,600 per week and those are for the Aston-managed, privately-owned units that vary in quality (a few are nicer than the Soliel Management timeshare units, but most are not as nice). Would it make sense to own if your intent was to trade for resort usage elsewhere? Probably not. You generally don't get equal value for Hawaii trades. Would it make sense to own if you live on the east coast and have to fly 3,000 more miles to go to Hawaii? Maybe not. But I don't trade and I live in a west coast-ish city with two separate airlines with direct 5-hour flights to Maui (Sacramento) and I have always had no issue reserving usage during high season since I have owned. Perhaps things can change in the future, but to date, I have no regrets.

 

[davidvel]

Timeshares can make sense if you buy and use smart. Whether maintenance fees are "outrageous" can depend upon location (near ocean locations have higher costs) and amenities. Maintenance fees can also depend upon whether who controls the homeowners' association. For example, I own two weeks each year at Maui Banyan Vacation Club (Soliel Management) in Kihei, Maui. I purchased my weeks on the resale market for what I felt were reasonable amounts. There are 18 Maui Banyan Vacation Club timeshare units in the 176-unit Maui Banyan development in South Kihei. The timeshare units are all two bedroom, two bathroom units (one bedroom, with living room, kitchen, large lanai, washer/dryer and adjoining lockout studio). The resort has two pools, BBQs, tennis court, covered parking, etc. The resort is across the street from an excellent beach and within walking distance of approximately 20 restaurants (although our favorite oceanfront restaurant closed during the pandemic). The maintenance fees are cheaper than average for Maui, perhaps because the homeowners' association is controlled by the 150+ private condo owners that have an interest in having the maintenance fees being high enough to keep the resort common facilities maintained in decent shape, but within reason. Based upon my research, I know of no Gold Crown level resort in Hawaii that has maintenance fees under $1,000/week. The maintenance fees (with separately billed taxes) for Maui Banyan Vacation Club are under $1,400 per use week. The "special" bargain rental fees available for Maui Banyan through Interval International during high season range from $3,600 to $4,600 per week and those are for the Aston-managed, privately-owned units that vary in quality (a few are nicer than the Soliel Management timeshare units, but most are not as nice). Would it make sense to own if your intent was to trade for resort usage elsewhere? Probably not. You generally don't get equal value for Hawaii trades. Would it make sense to own if you live on the east coast and have to fly 3,000 more miles to go to Hawaii? Maybe not. But I don't trade and I live in a west coast-ish city with two separate airlines with direct 5-hour flights to Maui (Sacramento) and I have always had no issue reserving usage during high season since I have owned. Perhaps things can change in the future, but to date, I have no regrets.

¶ broken?

 

[jp10558]

I have zero patience for people who don't do their homework.

The person who doesn't read enjoys no advantage over the person who can't read.

Yea, the people who are intentionally helpless or act like the world should be baby proofed for them drive me nuts. My only concern is the amount of direct lying we seem to allow now adays. Like, sell whatever car you want, but don't tell me it gets 30MPG when any non cheated test would read 20MPG. As long as the information isn't straight *untrue* or so misleading as to be untrue, let people make their decisions. This is where I still don't know how the Timeshare Salesmen are allowed to straight up lie so much.

Timeshares have been around since 1963. It's not like this is some secret society.

I think to the masses they are a secret society. It certainly feels that way to me.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

This is where I still don't know how the Timeshare Salesmen are allowed to straight up lie so much.

They're not. I expect we're eventually going to see enforcement actions by state AG's against some of the bigger operators. It appears to have gotten pretty out of hand. The Florida AG may be in bed with the Timeshare Industry, but that's not true of every AG in a state where timeshares are sold. If enough people complain to their AG's you'll see actions against them for some of their sales practices.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Of course, but multiple trade fees in a week add to the cost.

Not for Vistana using the mini-points system.

 

[theo]

They're not. I expect we're eventually going to see enforcement actions by state AG's against some of the bigger operators. It appears to have gotten pretty out of hand. The Florida AG may be in bed with the Timeshare Industry, but that's not true of every AG in a state where timeshares are sold. If enough people complain to their AG's you'll see actions against them for some of their sales practices.

Actually, they are...

Many (most?) developer contracts specifically and clearly state in writing that oral representations are not in any way legally binding and that, in essence, only the content within the "four corners" of the contract matters at all. Call it an inappropriate disclaimer or a willfully crafted CYA, but whatever you call it, there it sits, in black and white.

This situation enables the developer sales hyenas to lie, mispresent and obfuscate at will and with impunity --- and they readily and happily do so, fully aware that there are no consequences to any oral misstatements of fact. And of course, few buyers even bother to read their contract in the first place, until it's too late (...if ever).

It seems to me that AG's, regardless of the state and /or however energetic and well intentioned they might be, essentially have their hands tied in the absence of statutory prohibitions against these kinds of deceitful sales practices. I realize that that the knee jerk reaction is "Oh no, not more government interference in our lives!" --- and I get that, but I don't see how else the lying sales hyenas can ever be held accountable, with contracts that very plainly and overtly relieve them of any culpability or accountability.

 

[geist1223]

Couple points that I have never seen argued:

1. Because of the lies and misstatements by the sales staff there is no true meeting of the Minds.

2. By making these promises the Company is using "Fraud in the Inducement." The Contract may be enforceable upon its terms but buyer is entitled to Damages for the Fraud in the inducement to sign the Contract.

3. It is a Contract of Adhesion. Just try and make changes (what negotiation is all about) to the Contract and see what happens.

 

[theo]

Couple points that I have never seen argued:

1. Because of the lies and misstatements by the sales staff there is no true meeting of the Minds.

2. By making these promises the Company is using "Fraud in the Inducement." The Contract may be enforceable upon its terms but buyer is entitled to Damages for the Fraud in the inducement to sign the Contract.

3. It is a Contract of Adhesion. Just try and make changes (what negotiation is all about) to the Contract and see what happens.

Great points all, to be sure, but doesn't the existing (...too often completely ignored) "disclaimer" language in the contract weaken the strength of these arguments?

 

[ScoopKona]

They're not. I expect we're eventually going to see enforcement actions by state AG's against some of the bigger operators. It appears to have gotten pretty out of hand. The Florida AG may be in bed with the Timeshare Industry, but that's not true of every AG in a state where timeshares are sold. If enough people complain to their AG's you'll see actions against them for some of their sales practices.

I wish that was the case. While Florida may be hopelessly corrupt, the major timeshare players get a free-pass pretty-much everywhere they operate. And since these are fairly large companies (Marriott, Hilton, etc.), they have deep enough pockets to keep the prosecutors at bay. There are loads of people who are "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore," and nothing has been done. People show up here every day, desperate to rid themselves of a timeshare they either can't or won't use. And nothing has been done.

It would be better still if the timeshare game-show business model was abandoned. No more gifts and OPCs, which is what actually adds all that cost to the product. But that isn't going to happen anytime soon -- because it works. Sales are being made. Developers are happy. OPCs are happy. Buyers aren't. It's been this way since the 1980s. If nobody has fixed this problem in 40 years, I don't think it ever will be fixed.

If someone believes that "we get the government we deserve," it also stands to reason that we also get the corporations we deserve. The way timeshare developers, car dealerships, hospital billing departments and similar operate says much about "we."

 

[e.bram]

If one goes Pro Se ,and can get help from the court system or a local law school they can ask for a jury trial(over $20.00 in the Constitution of the United States) nad let jury of peers decide.

ps. I did this one in an automobile accident claim and the insurance company caved into my request when I told the I couldn't wait to Voir Dire the jury.

 

[harvrte66]

Looking at timeshares available - why would anyone buy a timeshare with annual fees over $1000?
The cost of most fees are higher than actually renting a location. Sure you get a set schedule, but the annual costs are outrageous for the most part.

There are many timeshare facilities with reasonable annual fees - which make them cost effective to own, deposit, and have an annual vacation - less than what most timeshare annual fees cost.

Can anyone explain the reasoning for high annual fees?
Cheers,

We pay for two weeks on Maui , this year about $6400. We have a two bedroom in Nanea. If you check costs per night we are still lower than a hotel and we have a full kitchen and laundry.

 

[RX8]

One place I found that operates like a resort is Timesharesbyowner. I do not do business or work with them. But I studied what they do, because is it uniquely like resorts. Check them out if you are looking.

I wouldn't agree that Timeshares-By-Owner is like a resort. They are an advertising/listing company. They charge timeshare owners a big upfront fee to post an ad on their website. I've said many times before that these advertising/listing companies are at worst an outright scam, and at best a waste of money. Timeshares-By-Owner falls into the latter category as they have been around many years.

While a renter may find a fair deal here and there, it is still a pain to work with (unless a fixed week) as the potential renter has to complete an inquiry, complete with name, e-mail and phone number, just to find out if the requested week is even available. It is likely that many potential renters are treating this like a hotel reservation and have last minute plans. While that may work some of the time odds are that it won't be available.

For sellers, those that paid a big upfront fee to list their timeshare, it is a complete waste of money. A majority of timeshares have little to no value, Timeshares-By-Owner lists 10,874 timeshares for sale. Of those, only 3% are listed at under $5,000. My guess is that no one would think that the Westlake Resorts timeshare owner listing their resort for sale at $47,923 got value from the upfront fee paid to Timeshares-By-Owner.

 

[Venter]

3. It is a Contract of Adhesion. Just try and make changes (what negotiation is all about) to the Contract and see what happens.

I don't know legalese but presume from the wording number 3 means 'set in stone'.

We have made three purchases from the developer so far.

First one was when we lived in Europe. We were nearly duped by a now bankrupt company Club la Costa(CLC). We found TUGs European equivalent (Cannot remember the name but in those days internet was dial up and information sparse). We were able to rescind. We then made use of a holiday through Marriott. They sold biannual contracts at 60% of annual contracts. We liked the 'security' the Marriott name brought to the purchase. At the time you had an option to purchase the other half to make it annual after 18 months. We wanted the option for annual but I argued that if I decided to buy the other half I should not be penalized and pay 60% again. We were there for ages and after standing my ground they actually changed the contract to read that if we come back within 18 months we could buy the other half for 40%. When I went back to buy the other half to make it annual nobody believed me but, after I presented the contract they honored it. At the time it made sense because of the lovely spa, restaurant and facilities at Club Son Antem. I was sad to read that the hotel was sold to Iberistar which limited the onsite dining facilities and the relationship was apparently not good between the two but, at that stage we were long gone and used our weak as a trader. I see that the hotel has changed hands again and now has a better relationship with the resort again. Cannot wait to go back some time in the future. This however shows that in the timeshare world things can and will change.

Our second purchase was because while visiting Orlando we really liked the idea that there were dedicated two story units like at Club Son Antem at Lakeshore Reserve. We again negotiate the same biannual purchase deal. When we arrived back in the UK Marriott celebrated 25 years of being in the timeshare business and had a 25 percent discount on all purchases. I contacted my sales person and they changed the contract to reflect this outside our rescission period but, we did buy the annual. Shortly after they moved to points and they did not build out Lakeshore Reserve which makes it super expensive to own. But making lemonade I must say we still love the ability to book into those two story units and have always had availability 12 months out. I would say at the time this purchase made sense but looking back and knowing what I do now I would maybe not have bought. Also being from the UK and having young children at the time, the Disney/Orlando sparkles dazzled us a bit.

I then mainly made resale purchases in Vistana when we ended up living in Colorado. Got a free biannual winter Lakeside Terrace and some free Sheraton Flex to supplement it with in the off years. I also added some Westin Flex for a bargain that got through ROFR resale during Covid times.

Then came our trip to Costa Rica which was stitched together with some Abound, some Bonvoy, and reservations by another owner of Abound points. This was in the early days of the merger. We decided we wanted to have nearly 100% availability going to Costa Rica and I baked in retroing the Vistana resales with the purchase. This time they did not want to change the contract to reflect this but I did not sign anything until I had email confirmation from corporate that I could use as evidence. All worked out fine in the end. I am kinda unsure if I am completely happy with the purchase as it was a lot of money but at the moment I have not seen any resales at Costa Rica and there has always been availability at 12 months. I paid more than if I would have retro'd through Vistana but at least don't own any more Flex points(I did end up buying some Aventuras as the price was right - again for our usage I have always gotten reservations).

So long story to show that in the early days there was maybe some leeway to negotiate and bake something into the contract that was not to outrageous. This definitely made me feel better about purchasing than with my last contract where I just had to hope and pray they would honor negotiations and that I would not have to take them to court using my email evidence.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

in the absence of statutory prohibitions against these kinds of deceitful sales practices. I

Yeah, but that's just it. There are arguably, a lot of statutory prohibitions against some of the more extreme salespeople behaviors that have been reported lately in various jurisdictions. I suppose anything is possible, but I would place money on an action being brought against one of the operators by a state AG in the next 5 years or so. It's probably not going to be Marriott, or Hilton, or Wyndham, but boy I could see someone taking a swing at a company like Westgate.

 

[ScoopKona]

It's probably not going to be Marriott, or Hilton, or Wyndham, but boy I could see someone taking a swing at a company like Westgate.

I was told by our legal department that the only time they ever lost was when the buyers were given alcohol at signing. (That used to be common in Key West.) The practice of pop the champagne was abandoned for that reason. Booze-drenched signings aside, they were like Perry Mason.

 

[theo]

Yeah, but that's just it. There are arguably, a lot of statutory prohibitions against some of the more extreme salespeople behaviors that have been reported lately in various jurisdictions. I suppose anything is possible, but I would place money on an action being brought against one of the operators by a state AG in the next 5 years or so. It's probably not going to be Marriott, or Hilton, or Wyndham, but boy I could see someone taking a swing at a company like Westgate.

Don't get me wrong --- I'm all for any possible course of action that would somehow hold those lying sales hyenas accountable. However, the pesky "fly in the ointment", it seems to me, is the language within the contract itself very clearly stating that any and all oral representations are not legally binding. While I like the "fraud in the inducement" logic, I also can't help believing that the "oral representations mean nothing" language contained within those contracts significantly dilutes the power of that argument.

P.S. To give credit where credit is due, ScoopKona influenced my change of species label for those deceitful salespeople a while back. I formerly referred to them as "sales weasels", but his own species identification of them as "hyenas" seems to be more accurate and more appropriate.

 

[Sandy VDH]

OP has never come back and this is their first and only post. It is odd that they have been registered for 1.5 years before posting this one thing.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Don't get me wrong --- I'm all for any possible course of action that would somehow hold those lying sales hyenas accountable. However, the pesky "fly in the ointment", it seems to me, is the language within the contract itself very clearly stating that any and all oral representations are not legally binding. While I like the "fraud in the inducement" logic, I also can't help believing that the "oral representations mean nothing" language contained within those contracts significantly dilutes the power of that argument.

P.S. To give credit where credit is due, ScoopKona influenced my change of species label for those deceitful salespeople a while back. I formerly referred to them as "sales weasels", but his own species identification of them as "hyenas" seems both more accurate and more appropriate.

I think we are mixing up contract provisions that (maybe) make a company not liable for the misrepresentations of their salespeople in civil actions brought to challenge those contracts by the other party to the contract versus enforcement actions brought by a State AG against an organization if their business practices are violating state law. I think these companies are arguably violating a whole host of consumer protection laws in various jurisdictions, and I think eventually one of them is going to get got, regardless of what they are putting in their contract. But only time will tell.

 

[TerryCanuck]

In buying timeshares, one of the most important factors is Annual Maintenance Fee. How is it calculated? How much goes to the Developer for "administration"? I own in Las Vegas, which has low timeshare taxes. If, on the other hand, you own in Florida, you may find you pay over $200 per week in property taxes because of its Florida location. Moral of the story: buy in Vegas, use your points to rent in Florida and avoid the excessive Florida taxes.

 

[LannyPC]

In buying timeshares, one of the most important factors is Annual Maintenance Fee. How is it calculated?

I agree. However, the thing to consider when calculating MFs is what the ratio is of what a rental could easily fetch to the MFs or what the difference between the two is. For instance, if a week for that interval rents out easily for, say, $2000, whereas the MFs are about $1400, then it's a good ownership or good buy.

However, if rentals at that resort are easy to come by and/or are often seen in the Last Minute Rentals section renting out for about $800-900 per week (Hello, Orlando), then it's not a good buy. Many will even argue that it has negative value. Owners of intervals like these are prime targets for these exit and cancel companies.

 

[RunCat]

They're not. I expect we're eventually going to see enforcement actions by state AG's against some of the bigger operators. It appears to have gotten pretty out of hand. The Florida AG may be in bed with the Timeshare Industry, but that's not true of every AG in a state where timeshares are sold. If enough people complain to their AG's you'll see actions against them for some of their sales practices.

FWIW, the Welk Resort lost a lawsuit a few years ago for this issue.

 

[theo]

In buying timeshares, one of the most important factors is Annual Maintenance Fee. How is it calculated? How much goes to the Developer for "administration"? I own in Las Vegas, which has low timeshare taxes. If, on the other hand, you own in Florida, you may find you pay over $200 per week in property taxes because of its Florida location. Moral of the story: buy in Vegas, use your points to rent in Florida and avoid the excessive Florida taxes.

Maintenance fees certainly have numerous factors that don't readily lend themselves to simple, straightforward "calculations". Independent (non-"chain") resorts, their original developers long gone, don't actually have any money "going to the developers". Some smaller independent resorts may have fewer than 50 total units, with obvious math consequences in "spreading the costs around". Also, bear in mind that many (non'"chain) resorts don't actually have any form or flavor of "points" in the first place --- only "weeks", either fixed or floating (or both).

Insurance costs are all over the map, depending on location (they are currently skyrocketing in coastal FL in the aftermath of Hurricane Ian (September, 2022). I'm not sure how much of a factor "taxes" are though; as an owner of multiple weeks (no "points" ownerships) at several different resorts in coastal FL, I can tell you that none have property taxes even remotely approaching the "$200 per week" figure you mention, all being under $65 per unit / week for real estate taxes.

I respectfully disagree with another part of your "buy in Vegas, but use your points in Florida" logic; more easily said than done. For Points ownerships (regardless of flavor), space availability is always a wild card. Even a mountain of "Points" (regardless of flavor) won't necessarily get you space in desirable Florida locations in Snowbird season.

Not seeking to argue, merely pointing out that "calculating maintenance fees" is (at best) an inexact science with lots of variables and many different influencing factors.
In the final final analysis, maybe the answer to the original question posed in this thread ("Why would anyone buy?") is simply "individually perceived value".

 

[austdav]

That is $175 a night or 1225 per week, which sounds like a fair deal. In what system is the timeshare? Marriotts in Florida have way higher maintenance fees.

Magic tree in Kissimmee fl. $600-2bd i believe $525 for 1bd. All weeks are floating but have never not been able to get the week i wanted. I stay 2 wks at christmas and 1 spring break. They have not raised mf in over 20yrs. Everything is free at the resort from putt-putt to game room, dvd rentals etc. although a 150 resort fee if trading in. You can purchase wks right from the resort. They generally give away 1bd for free. 2bd are cheep but not always available. I have 3. i paid 2000 ,1000, and got one free. They do a quick deed so hardly any expense purchasing, and usually have within a few days. The resort is gold crown in rci. i believe silver in ii. You can use whatever exchange co. u want. I have traded in to sheraton a couple times. exploria in daytona beach, and this year traded for key west. $850 including fees for a 2bd in key west, not bad. All my trades have been through interval to date. I used to own marriot cypress harbor, and still own a hilton, but this is far and away the best resort in my opinion. Owners have the option to stay whole months certain months for $1800 1bd 2200 2bd. If this interests anyone you can call the resort at 407-396-2300. By the way if you buy and dont like it or it dont work for you, they take back the resort from you for 2yrs maintence fee. Free 1bd dont like it $1050 done. Thats the max. I think the president of the board owns 10 wks. Pretty sure she wants to keep fees low. Bottom line is hotel timeshare companys have to please shareholders, not owners!