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Why is Marriott Vacations struggling?

Not to mention misjudging the anti-Marriott sentiment of many owners going back to the purchase and dismantling of Starwood Hotels and the SPG program, owners that then watched them buy SVO and start to do the same thing to their timeshare program except this time it involves a lot more of their money! Really it was a case of arrogant wishful thinking by MVC, trying to convince themselves that everyone would understand that Marriott was a superior product to what Vistana owners already had and immediately buy in. To quote Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman..."Big mistake. Huge." ;) Nobody likes a bully, particularly one that does it multiple times.

Yeah, it was former SPG loyalists who coined the term "Bonvoyed" as a pejorative. Which is reasonable, because the old SPG program was light years better than the current Bonvoy hotel program.

Many Vistana owners will have been SPG loyalists who had recent experience with Marriott buying their program and dismantling the value. That almost certainly makes it harder for MVC to sell them.
 
Not to mention misjudging the anti-Marriott sentiment of many owners going back to the purchase and dismantling of Starwood Hotels and the SPG program, owners that then watched them buy SVO and start to do the same thing to their timeshare program except this time it involves a lot more of their money! Really it was a case of arrogant wishful thinking by MVC, trying to convince themselves that everyone would understand that Marriott was a superior product to what Vistana owners already had and immediately buy in. To quote Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman..."Big mistake. Huge." ;) Nobody likes a bully, particularly one that does it multiple times.
They lied and said we needed to buy trust points in order to have access to Marriott system just to find out we did not. With Abound VSN members have access but now we need trust points to have access to everything in the system that we now have because our enrolled points is limited. Go figure.
 
Why is Marriott Vacation Struggling ? This was answered over a 150 years ago.

“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”​

@ 15 a point with a MF of 78 cents, they would need to fool all of the people, all of the time.

We all know the cost per point isn’t real. Cost of a point = underlying real estate + convinced value. I have no doubt VAC will be around for a long time. If they have to go to 7 per point, cut the sales team and have 1/3 the current valuation of 2.7 B, I couldn’t care less. I only care that the management line of business stays healthy and I can continue to trade my traders and get to use or rent my Grande Ocean.
 
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That's true, but meeting or exceeding expectations is what management is supposed to do. It's not just about making money, it's about making enough money to make your stock attractive to investors given all of the other places an investor can choose to invest.
Of course, not saying that, I have investments (but not VAC). It's just that some almost act as if the company is going out of business. There's no denying there are issues to be fixed / improved. Some will be harder than others. Some are listed here, I'm sure there are others. The market is not always right anyway. If I counted how many times Apple was going to go out of business the last 20 years.... But in this case, I do believe the market is right.

We're all being hit by increases in everything. I'm shocked at my grocery bill, I don't know how they measure increases but mine is double 4 years ago along with most every other line item showing increases in our family budget. Things seems like they are spinning out of control. I do hope that management at VAC and many other places are up to the task of bringing things back under control. We shall see.
 
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I know of only a handful of people that walked into a timeshare presentation with the plan to buy something. 99% are there for the free gift but they still sell to about 10% of the people. Certain products probably have a higher rate of people going in with the plan to buy. The problem is that timeshares don't sell themselves.
Right. Which begs the question, how many owners that never bought retail, who have attended 5-10+ "updates" will buy? Any rational marketing exec would say zero if not close to it. I think there is some weird marketing management idea in MVC that still pays money to these people to attend. :shrug:
 
Really it was a case of arrogant wishful thinking by MVC, trying to convince themselves that everyone would understand that Marriott was a superior product
The problem is at the MVW level, not MVC. That's where the corporate greed and silly sales problems start.
 
I also think they've sorely discounted, or even ignored, the power of the Internet. When we first "discovered" timesharing, kinda by hapchance, in '06 I had to do a but of digging to find info. on resales, and really TUG was THE resource (not that it still isn't the best :)). But now there are so many FB groups and I'm sure other social media, etc., where people can readily access information. Not only can they easily get info. on resales, but also read its of horror stories and discontent, and at least I've seen a lot of incorrect things posted that get accepted and discussed (and, unlike here on TUG, often go uncorrected). So it's a different world, and I don't think the old marketing tactics are really functional; they need a different approach, and need to relate to a more savvy consumer.
Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying that those who bought 15 or 20/25 years ago weren't/aren't savvy, but just that it was harder to get information then and it was easier for salespeople to convince people to buy by being fast and loose with the facts.
And I'm not sure what the answer is here, but while I see the huge benefit to being able to market the flexibility of points, I also see a huge downside to keeping a happy customer base (and future potential consumers) when people aren't really aware of what they're buying. What I mean is this- formerly, when a weeks owner bought a week, they knew where they were buying and what time of year. Of course, they all anticipated reserving the prime weeks in their season, but they knew the restrictions up front. Now they're all being sold being able to go anywhere anytime, and then finding the reality is very different. And with most families having two parents working full time, they don't want to waste the time and struggle to get reservations.

On a personal note, I sadly look at the decline in the stock price and wonder if it'll recover, and while I keep holding onto it I'm increasingly wondering if we should bail.
 
VPG is value (or volume) per guest. It's total sales divided by number of sales presentations, which gives you the average sales per presentation.
Thank you for explaining it to me
 
Honestly, the stock price is struggling, but the company not really:

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They clearly took a big hit during Covid, but revenues and cash flow were on a great trend prior to this year. 2023 has been more flat, so that has reduced the market view on future growth, but the company is in no way in danger. In fact, I would argue given the facts that many have mentioned that once expense inflation moderates that they will do better than ever. I believe the biggest long term issue they face is the capital expenditures. Timeshares are all about selling the "sizzle" and there are no new resorts to get excited about.
 

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I agree with the fine points others are making, and I would like to add my 2 cents. Virtually every company on the planet has a very simple task, make the best possible product and charge the highest price that the market can accept in the long run. Owners are starting to understand that the product is not the resorts. The resorts have to meet Marriott International quality standards and our managers are not doing a better job than the ones who manage the other 8000 hotels and resorts in their portfolio. Instead the product is our interaction with MVC when we are not on vacation and has to do with how we book, how easy and fun is to deal with customer service issues, how much we pay for the MF and the inventory we have access to.

Unfortunately, Marriott has allowed itself having opposing interests to its customers (“owners”) and in time these opposing interests only grew larger with the proliferation of the trusts. The list of opposing interests is long: ROFR, control of the trusts so the developer can pick and choose the inventory that is added to the trusts, a large rental business that means Marriott has a business incentive to keep the best inventory for the highest rental profit (instead of conveying it to the trusts), lack of transparency on how and when they actually book their own units that will be rented, a selection and election process that is designed to assert a higher influence to the BODs than the actual developer ownership, perceived disregard for our maintenance fees since their management fee is even higher when the MF go up.

To my knowledge, the trust owners do not even know what they actually own, even if the information should probably be continuously updated and disclosed to the trust holders. My understanding is that the initial purchase documents list an inventory that lacks details about the season, which is the most important feature of a timeshare aside from the name of the resort. Another important feature is view, when applicable, and that is also not disclosed. It seems that after the purchase there is no attempt to inform directly the owners about the additions to the trusts and the owners have to do detective work to find out more, and with no way of telling what is the quality of the new additions, since the season and the view are not public record.

This would not be possible without a decent dose of arrogance that others have mentioned already. At the same time when they reduced the benefits to the Vistana owners (reduced banking features, they ditched the early and late checkout for their best customers etc), they explained to us that everything will continue to be the same, a statement that was obviously contradicted by their actions. Abound itself was launched with the gross disregard IMO to what a home resort reservation period in our system meant, whether implicit at most resorts or explicit in the case of Lagunamar. To make it worse, they are moving a huge amount of inventory around based on a provision of the VSN rules that was written for external exchanges at the time, not for an in house exchange that is under full control of the company. The Lagunamar governing docs explicitly make the home resort reservation period even stronger, but Marriott does not even care about that.

I agree with others that, because of social media, owners are more informed now and the lack of transparency is no longer acceptable to many. Sure, the “customer advocacy” will try to correct few minor procedural issues, but that department functions as the PR arm of the firm, so virtually useless for the things that actually matter.

When Abound was launched, they created imbalances in the Vistana ownership base, and suddenly many who paid good money to trade within the system realized that their contracts may be worth 30 of 40% less in Abound, unless they exchange into low season (when Interval is often a better alternative for low season anyway). Sure, if you own Lagunamar of Hawaii you may still be happy with the point allocation, but how is that supposed to please the other owners in the system who saw their value collapsing in the new world? Of course the Vistana owners are supposed to believe that everything will stay the same if they want to, but Marriott’s actions to favor Abound at every level reminds us that the time is not in our favor and that in the future it may be harder and harder to get what we used to in VSN. Or course, at any “owners update” we are also told that VSN is not great, and that you need Abound points to compensate for the deteriorating VSN inventory.

Aside from the issues already mentioned by myself and others, I believe Abound has an additional structural challenge for Vistana owners because managing points in two different systems is more complex, and the life of a timeshare owner was already complicated enough with just one system. If you're content with Vistana and still happy with what you're getting, at least for now, why would you buy Abound points? Doing so could complicate your life, and potentially lead to a higher number of expiring points in either system and increase overall costs. While many Marriott owners were used to the existing setup and had no comparison, Vistana owners had a reference point—a system that many considered superior in terms of cost, abundance of inventory, quality of customer service, and booking platform. So, the question remains: why pay more for less? Sure, you only had access to 25 resorts instead of 100 or so but to many the number was sufficient since it already included great mountain and beach locations and the average family does not travel more than two weeks a year.

Will Marriott understand that they have to start to create value for the owners? Often those who try to satisfy the investors to the detriment of the customers, may end up pleasing neither.
 
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I agree with the fine points others are making, and I would like to add my 2 cents. Virtually every company on the planet has a very simple task, make the best possible product and charge the highest price that the market can accept in the long run. Owners are starting to understand that the product is not the resorts. The resorts have to meet Marriott International quality standards and our managers are not doing a better job than the ones who manage the other 8000 hotels and resorts in their portfolio. Instead the product is our interaction with MVC when we are not on vacation and has to do with how we book, how easy and fun is to deal with customer service issues, how much we pay for the MF and the inventory we have access to.

Unfortunately, Marriott has allowed itself having opposing interests to its customers (“owners”) and in time these opposing interests only grew larger with the proliferation of the trusts. The list of opposing interests is long: ROFR, control of the trusts so the developer can pick and choose the inventory that is added to the trusts, a large rental business that means Marriott has a business incentive to keep the best inventory for the highest rental profit (instead of conveying it to the trusts), lack of transparency on how and when they actually book their own units that will be rented, a selection and election process that is designed to assert a higher influence to the BODs than the actual developer ownership, perceived disregard for our maintenance fees since their management fee is even higher when the MF go up.

To my knowledge, the trust owners do not even know what they actually own, even if the information should probably be continuously updated and disclosed to the trust holders. My understanding is that the initial purchase documents list an inventory that lacks details about the season, which is the most important feature of a timeshare aside from the name of the resort. Another important feature is view, when applicable, and that is also not disclosed. It seems that after the purchase there is no attempt to inform directly the owners about the additions to the trusts and the owners have to do detective work to find out more, and with no way of telling what is the quality of the new additions, since the season and the view are not public record.

This would not be possible without a decent dose of arrogance that others have mentioned already. At the same time when they reduced the benefits to the Vistana owners (reduced banking features, they ditched the early and late checkout for their best customers etc), they explained to us that everything will continue to be the same, a statement that was obviously contradicted by their actions. Abound itself was launched with the gross disregard IMO to what a home resort reservation period in our system meant, whether implicit at most resorts or explicit in the case of Lagunamar. To make it worse, they are moving a huge amount of inventory around based on a provision of the VSN rules that was written for external exchanges at the time, not for an in house exchange that is under full control of the company. The Lagunamar governing docs explicitly make the home resort reservation period even stronger, but Marriott does not even care about that.

I agree with others that, because of social media, owners are more informed now and the lack of transparency is no longer acceptable to many. Sure, the “customer advocacy” will try to correct few minor procedural issues, but that department functions as the PR arm of the firm, so virtually useless for the things that actually matter.

When Abound was launched, they created imbalances in the Vistana ownership base, and suddenly many who paid good money to trade within the system realized that their contracts may be worth 30 of 40% less in Abound, unless they exchange into low season (when Interval is often a better alternative for low season anyway). Sure, if you own Lagunamar of Hawaii you may still be happy with the point allocation, but how is that supposed to please the other owners in the system who saw their value collapsing in the new world? Of course the Vistana owners are supposed to believe that everything will stay the same if they want to, but Marriott’s actions to favor Abound at every level reminds us that the time is not in our favor and that in the future it may be harder and harder to get what we used to in VSN. Or course, at any “owners update” we are also told that VSN is not great, and that you need Abound points to compensate for the deteriorating VSN inventory.

Aside from the issues already mentioned by myself and others, I believe Abound has an additional structural challenge for Vistana owners because managing points in two different systems is more complex, and the life of a timeshare owner was already complicated enough with just one system. If you're content with Vistana and still happy with what you're getting, at least for now, why would you buy Abound points? Doing so could complicate your life, and potentially lead to a higher number of expiring points in either system and increase overall costs. While many Marriott owners were used to the existing setup and had no comparison, Vistana owners had a reference point—a system that many considered superior in terms of cost, abundance of inventory, quality of customer service, and booking platform. So, the question remains: why pay more for less? Sure, you only had access to 25 resorts instead of 100 or so but to many the number was sufficient since it already included great mountain and beach locations and the average family does not travel more than two weeks a year.

Will Marriott understand that they have to start to create value for the owners? Often those who try to satisfy the investors to the detriment of the customers, may end up pleasing neither.
These are not new problems or management attitudes. They date back to the inception of the point system in 2010. It's merely that they have gotten steadily worse.
 
When I saw the comparison of the Travel and Leisure against Marriott, I laughed out loud. Wyndham is always sold based on lies and inuendo and pats the salespeople on the back for lying to some old person, telling them they can rent to pay the maintenance fees they cannot afford. What a lie that is. One Wyndham owner is touting Wyndham over Marriott because of the lesser decrease of value. The two cannot be compared in any way at all. Marriott is far above the product Wyndham is.

The most honest timeshare presentations I have attended were Marriott and Westin. It's not that the salespeople don't try to convince you that what you own is not as good as Abound/ Destination Club, whatever they want to call it. They do want to tell you how crazy you are for owning deeded weeks, but they generally don't lie outright about the product. I had a salesperson at Marriott's Ko Olina tell me that what we own is not worth enrolling with a big purchase. He wouldn't do it. I was surprised at his honesty. Admittedly, I have only been to three (that I can remember) Marriott presentations in my 40+ years of timesharing.

Marriott shouldn't keep changing the name to make it more marketable. It just looks like they are changing the name to appeal to a new crop of prospects. It looks desperate.
 
I don't know a lot about Marriott, but per the timeshare traveller youtube channel, it's now slightly better to equal resorts to HGVC, but the MFs are a lot more. With the internet, you can sell a premium product, but it's harder and harder to sell a 5% better product for way more than 5% more money. Especially when to most people Hilton has similar cache to Marriott in brand.

And for "non-luxury" buyers there's all the others out there which are often even less MFs. Timeshares in general seem to make money mostly by lying salespeople, which seems like a problem with the increased knowledge about stuff per the Internet. That said, clearly there are plenty of people who never do any research. And somehow there is a market that isn't swayed by all the negative press out there.
 
I don't know a lot about Marriott, but per the timeshare traveller youtube channel, it's now slightly better to equal resorts to HGVC, but the MFs are a lot more.
It all depends on what you like and where you want to go. The systems are different so it is too simplistic to say one is better or equal to another. In Europe there are more HGV resorts but they don't match the quality of MVCs.
 
One Wyndham owner is touting Wyndham over Marriott because of the lesser decrease of value. The two cannot be compared in any way at all.
You, as usual, completely missed the point of my post and choose to read things into it that are not there. There was no "touting" anything in the post. It was simply a direct comparison of the stock prices over the last year. Both stocks are down, but Marriott is down by a lot more than the average.
 
This is the beginning of December. Just did a search of properties that I normally visit - and a couple I'd like to visit - six to eight months from now. Squadoosh. Never had that issue until recently. There are too many of us fighting for the same inventory. This has become a cage match. Figure we'll hold on to our "investment" for a few more years and then sell at a huge loss. Look at the bright side, one less person in the cage.
 
Yeah, it was former SPG loyalists who coined the term "Bonvoyed" as a pejorative. Which is reasonable, because the old SPG program was light years better than the current Bonvoy hotel program.

Many Vistana owners will have been SPG loyalists who had recent experience with Marriott buying their program and dismantling the value. That almost certainly makes it harder for MVC to sell them.
Not just SPG loyalists saw devaluations. In July 2005, we stayed at the Paris Champs Elysee for five nights at 150,000 points. That same room/same time today is 421,000 points. Not a math major but that seems like an almost 300 percent increase. Using Destination Club points, that same trip is 13,375 points. They really need to stop selling access to Marriott hotel inventory as part of the sales pitch.
 
This is the beginning of December. Just did a search of properties that I normally visit - and a couple I'd like to visit - six to eight months from now. Squadoosh. Never had that issue until recently. There are too many of us fighting for the same inventory. This has become a cage match. Figure we'll hold on to our "investment" for a few more years and then sell at a huge loss. Look at the bright side, one less person in the cage.
Don't know if I agree with that. Trying to get peak summer in December seems like a gamble. I would see that as a positive factor if that has been your experience. Prior to the points system the received wisdom was to look 12 months out or last minute and I have kept to that and always get where I want. Shoulder/off season has always been available at 6-8 months. Did the points system really improve prime availability that much?
 
...

Will Marriott understand that they have to start to create value for the owners? Often those who try to satisfy the investors to the detriment of the customers, may end up pleasing neither.
Marriott has been very anti customer for a long time, at least towards the TS owners. Bad computer system, constant devaluing of Marriott Reward (Bonvoy) points, elimination of travel packages, huge (more than competitors?) MF increases, etc.

You are very right about relationship between customer and investor satisfaction
 
Right. Which begs the question, how many owners that never bought retail, who have attended 5-10+ "updates" will buy? Any rational marketing exec would say zero if not close to it. I think there is some weird marketing management idea in MVC that still pays money to these people to attend. :shrug:
I would beg to even say for some, attending the 'updates' incentivizes then to turn right around and purchase re-sale, OR not at all for one reason or another from info gathered at the updates
 
...

On a personal note, I sadly look at the decline in the stock price and wonder if it'll recover, and while I keep holding onto it I'm increasingly wondering if we should bail.
From an investor's perspective, the question I always try to answer is: what in the future will increase growth, what will keep existing customers coming back and recommend the product?

AirBnB has certainly put a dent in MVCs's future prospects. Any seeing the challenges from insides from a customer's perspective, I would not be an investor at this time. Why pay a for timeshare and be 'stuck' with annual fees and hard to reserve places unless you reserve over 10-12 months out when you can reserve a 2-4 bedroom for the same cost (or less or more) almost last minute?

I don't follow VAC, but taking a loss is sometimes OK when there are so many more better companies/stocks to purchase.
 
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They are running out of inventory
To keep growing earnings, many companies just sell more of what they make
VAC turned low value, low demand weeks into gold for a while
Points worked great for this purpose
They are tapped out for product at this point
Ask any long term owner trying for reservations on a random basis
It will usually show no availability
Maybe a waitlist will work, but planning is on hold while waiting
Numerous social media sites paint a bleak picture to the new buyer
It has taken it's toll on growth
 
Don't know if I agree with that. Trying to get peak summer in December seems like a gamble. I would see that as a positive factor if that has been your experience. Prior to the points system the received wisdom was to look 12 months out or last minute and I have kept to that and always get where I want. Shoulder/off season has always been available at 6-8 months. Did the points system really improve prime availability that much?
How could it (other than though underhanded manipulation of inventory reservations)? The same underlying weeks are out there, and from most accounts, the trust owns more crappy weeks than prime weeks.
 
How could it (other than though underhanded manipulation of inventory reservations)? The same underlying weeks are out there, and from most accounts, the trust owns more crappy weeks than prime weeks.
Well, it clearly could if more people choose non timeshare options. Points have made that a lot easier. Anyhow, my point is Timeshare 101, if you think you can/need to reserve prime weeks 6-8 months out you are likely to be disappointed.
 
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