Why is Marriott Vacations struggling?

[jp10558]

I totally agree. Hotel prices are up dramatically and not just in popular desirable places either! I'm going to Mississippi next week and thought Feb in Mississippi should have some really cheap hotel rates. I'm paying $150/nt for a Fairfield Inn. The Westin in Jackson was almost $300 for a random Feb week night. A few short years ago I could typically get a Fairfield or a Courtyard for about $100/nt. Seems $150 has become the new bargain price.

Yea, I've noticed $150 is the lower bound I see for Hampton Inn, which is the "cheap" hotel in the Hilton portfolio (or was). I have seen Tru being more like $95 or so, but I haven't had an opportunity to test one out - I was going to on Sunday, but ended up adding a week at Bay Club II instead (and losing that $95 as I guess I booked non-refundable). I think I've leaned to just book my on the side of the highway hotels day of or day before travel in the future (again - planning was bad here lol).

 

[jp10558]

So, yes, timeshares maintenance fees can logically be expected to rise less than hotel rates might, but I think that is exactly what we are seeing over the last few years. Timeshare maintenance fees are going up, but hotel rates are rising even faster - at least that is my personal experience.

And in this thread, the percent increases are really really high compared to other timeshares I've seen reported. So owners at these timeshares with 15%-25% increases need to be asking why are these increasing double or more the rate of competing timeshares? That's a direct comparison that's extremely relevant I would think. Even in developer sales at high price points it just simply has to be harder to sell someone a MF of $3,000 a week vs $1,500 a week which is harder than $900 a week.

In my mind, I can see how you'd more easily get convinced to get past a large up front fee if the ongoing fee is low. I can't speak to the average person buying a timeshare, but I know I balked resale when I was looking at Marriott because of the $3/pt to enroll to Abound, AND even more so at the $3,000 / week ongoing or more on many of them.

I know when I'm sitting deciding to purchase other items where I have mostly the info for a go/no go and nothing more to compare, I still pause as the ongoing commitment goes up regardless of other info. I know, if my MFs for a week hit $3,000 I'd be looking at (what I think many are) just seeing if I can rent for that amount when I go.

 

[DRH90277]

Some good thoughts here but one must consider the upfront capital cost paid by the timeshare owner. Our maintenance fees should be lower than those of any hotel because there should be no recovery of capital included. Unfortunately, MVC touts that our room cost is a bargain in relation to an equivalent hotel but disregards our capital contribution. Why wouldn't someone say our equivalent cost in maintenance fees should be less than 60% of the hotel room cost? The timeshare industry chooses to mislead on this point but we should not.

 

[Hindsite]

Unfortunately, MVC touts that our room cost is a bargain in relation to an equivalent hotel but disregards our capital contribution.

Usually when they say this they are silent on what costs they are counting when doing the comparison so its certain to be stacked in their favour. Its up to the individual to decide how they view the cost alternatives and generate a justification for purchase. People buy stuff for many different reasons, often not logically based.

As whenever this debate comes up in TUG, there are a variety of views on how you value the cost of the alternative. Published vacation lodging costs for a like for like unit (e,g via Bonvoy) may be overkill for some people who would otherwise use much smaller hotel rooms for their travel. Where you can, using historical spend on vacation lodging can be useful, if the travel pattern doesn't change significantly.

In our case we had a sum we were consistently spending on vacation lodging and were considering whether to buy a vacation home but not really wanting to be tied to a single location or having the manage and rent out an overseas property, so the MVC offering had merit. I ran the numbers for purchase price, annual maint fees and all fees whether they would be used or not, and escalated that by 10% compound for 10 years. I compared that with the projections for vacation lodging costs with no escalation and the Timeshare option came out ahead. Whether you agree with my methodology or not, doesn't matter. Subsequently I've tracked actual spend and we covered our costs in the first 5 years, so that works for us. Now its just recurring annual costs to ensure we get value from, so I don't feel bad about just 2 of us occupying a 2-bed unit with the capacity of 8 people or inviting friends and family to join us without asking them to pay towards the costs of the accommodation.

I believe it is still possible to buy from the developer and still do well over a 10-year period as long as there isn't financing involved, you know what to buy and how to get a good deal and you put the time in to get the reservations that generate value for you as a family. Buying resale, probably cuts the time to recover any initial outlay to 2 years or less.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

MVC touts that our room cost is a bargain in relation to an equivalent hotel but disregards our capital contribution.

Uh oh, now you're trending toward a breakeven calc on a (shudder) investment. Somehow, MF salespeople have convinced people that a $20K or $40K or $60K TS is not an investment. Go figure. You call it "misleading" but most people here totally agree with them.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

I've leaned to just book my on the side of the highway hotels day of or day before travel in the future

I haven't stayed in one since a road-trip maybe 15 yrs ago, but back when, that was always my strategy. side of the highway hotels are much more likely to slash prices on empty rooms in the final 24 hrs. Nobody really plans a trip there unless they are driving by and statistically, they know how many people are likely to "drive by" in the next 24 hrs for any given day of the year. And, they don't think they'll "damage the brand" by having those low prices appear, disappear, reappear ...

 

[timsi]

You're of course correct that cost/pricing structures of hotels and the costs of timeshares are different in many ways, but they are also similar in many ways. The key point is both are experiencing similar cost pressures, albeit pressures that are different in some respects. Both are experiencing higher labor costs, supply chain costs, insurance costs, property taxes (due to rising property values), etc.

I would argue, however, that with the dynamic pricing most hotels use now, if occupancy is still lower now, that should result in some downward pressure on nightly rates rather than the opposite as you suggest. While it's true that management might try to raise prices to some degree to compensate for lower occupancy, those higher rates could also reduce demand further, so there is a market-based limit to how much they practically can compensate for lower occupancy by raising nightly rates.

So, yes, timeshares maintenance fees can logically be expected to rise less than hotel rates might, but I think that is exactly what we are seeing over the last few years. Timeshare maintenance fees are going up, but hotel rates are rising even faster - at least that is my personal experience.

We need to recognize that the weak link between hotel prices and timeshare maintenance costs renders the comparison irrelevant. While certain expenses may overlap the percentage of non-shared costs remains unknown. In the example I provided, factors such as interest costs and a lower occupancy rate could easily account for 30% of a 50% hotel inflation. Without knowledge of the proportion of common expenses, one can only speculate that if a hotel in the area now costs 50% more, maintenance fees of a timeshare should increase by 15% or 35%.


Moreover, without insight into the profit margins for hotels pre and post-pandemic, the comparison becomes even more dubious. We cannot know whether hotel room price increases come from higher operational expenses or if hotels are seeking to recoup losses incurred during the Covid-19 pandemic. To make it even worse, we know exactly the maintenance fee increases, but you rely on anecdotal evidence when it comes to hotel prices.

Disagreeing with your assertion that the lower overall demand vs pre-Covid should temper the prices hotels can charge. While business travel demand has not fully rebounded, the other travelers have displayed a willingness to pay any price for a hotel room, having spent considerable time at home for 2 years.

As others have pointed out, the most pertinent comparison is between HGVC and MVC in the same area. Notably, in Las Vegas, the maintenance fee increase for the Marriott resort in 2024 is double that of Hilton resorts.

 

[JIMinNC]

We need to recognize that the weak link between hotel prices and timeshare maintenance costs renders the comparison irrelevant. While certain expenses may overlap the percentage of non-shared costs remains unknown. In the example I provided, factors such as interest costs and a lower occupancy rate could easily account for 30% of a 50% hotel inflation. Without knowledge of the proportion of common expenses, one can only speculate that if a hotel in the area now costs 50% more, maintenance fees of a timeshare should increase by 15% or 35%.


Moreover, without insight into the profit margins for hotels pre and post-pandemic, the comparison becomes even more dubious. We cannot know whether hotel room price increases come from higher operational expenses or if hotels are seeking to recoup losses incurred during the Covid-19 pandemic. To make it even worse, we know exactly the maintenance fee increases, but you rely on anecdotal evidence when it comes to hotel prices.

Disagreeing with your assertion that the lower overall demand vs pre-Covid should temper the prices hotels can charge. While business travel demand has not fully rebounded, the other travelers have displayed a willingness to pay any price for a hotel room, having spent considerable time at home for 2 years.

I'm not trying to hyper-analyze how much timeshare maintenance fees SHOULD go up versus hotels. As you point out, we don't know all of the various components, and the specifics don't really matter to me anyway. All I know is that people have been complaining for the last few months about their timeshare fees going up so much, but seemingly ignoring that hotels are probably going up as much, or probably more. As @ljmiii pointed out above, the comparison is relevant primarily because hotels are where many of us would stay if we didn't own timeshares. I know for sure that is where WE stay when we don't have a timeshare to stay in, so we understand both of our lodging options are rising significantly. It's no fun to pay more for the same product, but we're doing that over the last three years in ALL aspects of our lives, not just timeshares and travel.

As others have pointed out, the most pertinent comparison is between HGVC and MVC in the same area. Notably, in Las Vegas, the maintenance fee increase for the Marriott resort in 2024 is double that of Hilton resorts.

We have owned in both HGVC and MVC systems since 2018. Our Marriott Barony Beach Club in HHI went up 8.55% this year. Our HGVC Sea World went up 10.54%. Our Marriott Waiohai rose 12.96%. Our Marriott Maui Ocean Club is up 30%, but a big chunk of that is driven by a two-year special assessment to cover unplanned plumbing drain repairs.

In looking briefly at both the HGVC and MVC Maintenance fee sticky threads, both systems seem to have some resorts with mid-single digit increases and others with low-to-mid teens increases. Just from eyeballing it, it does appear that HGVC increases MAY tend to look a little lower than MVC, but it doesn't seem grossly different on the whole. It's possible for anyone to cherry pick specific data to make whatever point they want to make, but someone would have to average the increases across all resorts in both systems to do a true comparison. In the end, the costs are what they are. Either pay it and enjoy your vacations or sell or deed back your units.

 

[Retired2025 aka AlmostRetired]

I am not an investor in VAC. Will their stock go up or down, yes. Will they survive as a company, yes though the business model might look different. As a timeshare owner, I care about the timeshare management side.

When it comes to sales, you are what you are measured on. If you pay someone on profit, they don’t care about revenue. If you pay on revenue, you don’t care about profit. When it comes to timeshares, how happy or unhappy you are will depend on what you measure.

If I want to go on vacation I need to stay somewhere. Who cares about the factors that goes into hotel pricing. Who cares about the factors that go into how other timeshares increase their MF. I look at what it costs for a place to stay after using all the discount codes I can use, what amenities the place I stay has that I value, and where it is located relative to where I want to be. This is this criteria in mind, I make a decision. Cost is only one factor and how they get to this costs is a head scratcher to me on the importance.

When I go to,HHI, I can stay at Springhill Suits, Courtyard, Westin, Marriott Resort or Marriott Timeshare. From May through August and Christmas, the more costly timeshare wins hands down. Even with the increase in MF.
When I go to Aruba I have 5 choices on where to stay. The timeshare wins hands down even with the Club Dues. II membership account, MF increases, II trading fees, e-plus cast and upgrade fees. My siblings and our spouses are going to Florida the end of April for my Moms 95th for 4 nights. We are staying at a single hotel and not Beachfront Towers.

As far as the initial value of the timeshare, well I posted this before and it still holds true. I owned stock both MCI and Lehman Brothers. If my timeshare goes to zero, my family and I got a lot more enjoyment from my timeshare then from those stocks. Also the lesson learned, if ever I lose confidence in MVCI management or I am unhappy, I will sell.

 

[timsi]

I am not an investor in VAC. Will their stock go up or down, yes. Will they survive as a company, yes though the business model might look different. As a timeshare owner, I care about the timeshare management side.

When it comes to sales, you are what you are measured on. If you pay someone on profit, they don’t care about revenue. If you pay on revenue, you don’t care about profit. When it comes to timeshares, how happy or unhappy you are will depend on what you measure.

If I want to go on vacation I need to stay somewhere. Who cares about the factors that goes into hotel pricing. Who cares about the factors that go into how other timeshares increase their MF. I look at what it costs for a place to stay after using all the discount codes I can use, what amenities the place I stay has that I value, and where it is located relative to where I want to be. This is this criteria in mind, I make a decision. Cost is only one factor and how they get to this costs is a head scratcher to me on the importance.

When I go to,HHI, I can stay at Springhill Suits, Courtyard, Westin, Marriott Resort or Marriott Timeshare. From May through August and Christmas, the more costly timeshare wins hands down. Even with the increase in MF.
When I go to Aruba I have 5 choices on where to stay. The timeshare wins hands down even with the Club Dues. II membership account, MF increases, II trading fees, e-plus cast and upgrade fees. My siblings and our spouses are going to Florida the end of April for my Moms 95th for 4 nights. We are staying at a single hotel and not Beachfront Towers.

As far as the initial value of the timeshare, well I posted this before and it still holds true. I owned stock both MCI and Lehman Brothers. If my timeshare goes to zero, my family and I got a lot enjoyment from my timeshare then from those stocks. Also the lesson learned, if ever I lose confidence in MVCI management or I am unhappy, I will sell.

The Abound MF are up 15.1% in 2024. According to this thread, the 2024 HGVC average MF increase is 6.52% !

2024 Hilton Grand Vacations Maintenance Fees

* Please limit this thread to only the MF specifics and take discussions/commentary to the discussion boards. Thank you! * Owners, please report your Weeks MF's as they are billed (NOT proposed/estimated) in this format: Resort Name/Unit Size Operating Fee Reserve Fee Property Taxes (or note...

tugbbs.com

You are paying for a 2 BR at HGVC Sea World $1559 - a 10.54% YOY increase

Compare that with:
Marriott's Grande Vista $1895 annual fees - 17.13% increase.
Marriot Harbour Lake $1947.76 - 17.29% increase
Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve $2403 - 12% increase

Your comment about the memories is not relevant in a rational discussion about numbers and maintenance fees.

 

[JIMinNC]

The Abound MF are up 15.1% in 2024. According to this thread, the 2024 HGVC average MF increase is 6.52% !

2024 Hilton Grand Vacations Maintenance Fees

* Please limit this thread to only the MF specifics and take discussions/commentary to the discussion boards. Thank you! * Owners, please report your Weeks MF's as they are billed (NOT proposed/estimated) in this format: Resort Name/Unit Size Operating Fee Reserve Fee Property Taxes (or note...

tugbbs.com

Similar to how you pointed out earlier that the different cost/capital structures of hotels and timeshares impacts the way inflation impacts each, making direct dollar-for-dollar comparisons difficult, those two numbers are likely not comparable either. The HGVC number was calculated by the TUG HGVC board for the data reported by members from across the HGVC network. The Abound Trust, however, is not representative of the MVC network at large, so its MF change is reflective of the components that are actually in the Trust, not the MVC network as a whole.

You are paying for a 2 BR at HGVC Sea World $1559 - a 10.54% YOY increase

Compare that with:
Marriott's Grande Vista $1895 annual fees - 17.13% increase.
Marriot Harbour Lake $1947.76 - 17.29% increase
Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve $2403 - 12% increase

There does appear to be a significant variance between HGVC and MVC in Orlando, but unless we have more insight into how the new Florida reserve rules impacted each system respectively, or what other relevant differences may be, it's hard to draw any conclusions as to why the difference exists.

Having said all that, if that 6.5% annual increase quoted on the HGVC board is indeed reflective of the true average for HGVC, I'm reasonably confident that the average MVC increase will true-out to be higher - maybe not the 15% experienced by the Trust components - but certainly higher across the network than the 6.5% for HGVC. Why that is, I don't know, but in the scheme of things, how relevant is any explanation, really?

In the end, it is what it is. We as individual owners have no more way to change that dynamic than we do as individual taxpayers trying to change the way government spends our tax dollars. All that is really important to me is that the timeshares we own still represent a good value exchange compared to the alternative lodging alternatives we would choose if we didn't use a timeshare. Since our logical alternative to timeshare stays are hotels, and hotel costs seem to be increasing as much or more than timeshare fees, we're good. That's all that really matters to me.

 

[Retired2025 aka AlmostRetired]

The Abound MF are up 15.1% in 2024. According to this thread, the 2024 HGVC average MF increase is 6.52% !

2024 Hilton Grand Vacations Maintenance Fees

* Please limit this thread to only the MF specifics and take discussions/commentary to the discussion boards. Thank you! * Owners, please report your Weeks MF's as they are billed (NOT proposed/estimated) in this format: Resort Name/Unit Size Operating Fee Reserve Fee Property Taxes (or note...

tugbbs.com

You are paying for a 2 BR at HGVC Sea World $1559 - a 10.54% YOY increase

Compare that with:
Marriott's Grande Vista $1895 annual fees - 17.13% increase.
Marriot Harbour Lake $1947.76 - 17.29% increase
Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve $2403 - 12% increase

Your comment about the memories is not relevant in a rational discussion about numbers and maintenance fees.

I am not sure I am the one not being rational. You take one line out of everything I posted and showed me you did not understand it. Just so we are clear, I did not say anything about memories, I said enjoyment. I enjoy eating ice cream but eating ice cream is not memorable. Trust me when I say that the money I lost on those two stocks was very memorable and for the record, I did not enjoy it.

You look at percent increase as a gauge and that gauge takes you down a path of not trusting MVCI and in part a fair amount of unhappiness. If I am misrepresenting what you seem to be saying in your posts (in general) than I apologize. I am not trying to convince you to change your view of the world, I am not sure you want a discussion as much as a confirmation others feel the same way as you. I do not.

I was merely pointing out that on every vacation I take, I look at the cost of staying somewhere, the amenities that are important to me and the location. I may be unhappy with my MF increase but that is not how I value my ownership. I look at the total value I get from my ownership. This includes all of the tools available to me (renting points, usage of my week (and the MF that comes with it), renting my week (and the MF that comes with it), renting the week I got with points and trading my traders into II. I am very happy. Again, I am not saying saying I am happy with the increase but I am saying I put that increase in context of a bigger picture. Sorry to repeat myself but if I ever I lose confidence in MVCI management or I am unhappy with the value I get from the ownership, I will sell.

 

[timsi]

Having said all that, if that 6.5% annual increase quoted on the HGVC board is indeed reflective of the true average for HGVC, I'm reasonably confident that the average MVC increase will true-out to be higher - maybe not the 15% experienced by the Trust components - but certainly higher across the network than the 6.5% for HGVC. Why that is, I don't know, but in the scheme of things, how relevant is any explanation, really?

When examining the rate hikes for the HGVC resorts, most are within the 4-8% range, while MVC increases range from 8-20%. Consequently, the variance in the average increase between HGVC MF and the Abound trust doesn't appear to be attributable to specific resorts and weighting. Instead, it seems to be driven by a consistent pattern of higher increases on the Marriott side.

In the end, it is what it is. We as individual owners have no more way to change that dynamic than we do as individual taxpayers trying to change the way government spends our tax dollars. All that is really important to me is that the timeshares we own still represent a good value exchange compared to the alternative lodging alternatives we would choose if we didn't use a timeshare. Since our logical alternative to timeshare stays are hotels, and hotel costs seem to be increasing as much or more than timeshare fees, we're good. That's all that really matters to me.

I believe this particular mindset contributes to the issue, allowing them to believe they can act with impunity. From my perspective, it appears that Marriott owners, in contrast to HGVC owners, tend to be less critical and more inclined to defend the company, exacerbating the problem.

 

[Hindsite]

The Abound MF are up 15.1% in 2024. According to this thread, the 2024 HGVC average MF increase is 6.52% !

2024 Hilton Grand Vacations Maintenance Fees

* Please limit this thread to only the MF specifics and take discussions/commentary to the discussion boards. Thank you! * Owners, please report your Weeks MF's as they are billed (NOT proposed/estimated) in this format: Resort Name/Unit Size Operating Fee Reserve Fee Property Taxes (or note...

tugbbs.com

You are paying for a 2 BR at HGVC Sea World $1559 - a 10.54% YOY increase

Compare that with:
Marriott's Grande Vista $1895 annual fees - 17.13% increase.
Marriot Harbour Lake $1947.76 - 17.29% increase
Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve $2403 - 12% increase

The GSI data for the different resorts would be interesting to see to be able to compare guest experience for a given maint fee. People will pay more for better experience.

GSI is a more significant behavioural driver for the resort management teams and a much easier way to influence resort management practices.

 

[JIMinNC]

I believe this particular mindset contributes to the issue, allowing them to believe they can act with impunity. From my perspective, it appears that Marriott owners, in contrast to HGVC owners, tend to be less critical and more inclined to defend the company, exacerbating the problem.

I participate in both MVC and HGVC forums on TUG, and I find the majority in both groups seem basically happy with the way the programs are run at the aggregate. There's grousing and grumbling at times in both forums, particularly around maintenance fee bill time, when talking about booking tough reservations, or about the questionable IT competence of both companies, but I don't read noticeably more criticism in the HGVC forum than in the MVC forum. That said, maybe the reason there's not all that much grumbling and criticism in either forum is that we are all, for the most part, pretty satisfied. There are, of course, some consistent naysayers in both groups as well.

Obviously, based on your comments in this thread and many others, you are one of the more critical Marriott/Vistana owners. How would you suggest a group of owners send them a message so they don't feel "they can act with impunity"? If you think the rest of us are mere Marriott lap dogs, and you think more activism could send a "message" to Marriott Vacations Worldwide, maybe you should take the lead in organizing an owners' rebellion amongst the 700,000 owner families that own with MVW.

 

[jp10558]

As whenever this debate comes up in TUG, there are a variety of views on how you value the cost of the alternative. Published vacation lodging costs for a like for like unit (e,g via Bonvoy) may be overkill for some people who would otherwise use much smaller hotel rooms for their travel. Where you can, using historical spend on vacation lodging can be useful, if the travel pattern doesn't change significantly.

This is why I think we always say it is per person to figure it out. I think as an individual, you need to do what you said - figure out where you were going, how much you were spending and see how much that costs now. The thing that pushed me to timeshares is it got harder and harder to share a hotel room with family, and doing 2 hotel rooms was pricy compared to timeshares where they're available.

I posted all the details elsewhere but between HGVC and Wyndham *and* using RCI extra vacations a bunch - I feel like I broke even in a little less than 2 years having bought resale. But I've been aggressively going on trips, using availability to drive the destinations.

 

[timsi]

I participate in both MVC and HGVC forums on TUG, and I find the majority in both groups seem basically happy with the way the programs are run at the aggregate. There's grousing and grumbling at times in both forums, particularly around maintenance fee bill time, when talking about booking tough reservations, or about the questionable IT competence of both companies, but I don't read noticeably more criticism in the HGVC forum than in the MVC forum. That said, maybe the reason there's not all that much grumbling and criticism in either forum is that we are all, for the most part, pretty satisfied. There are, of course, some consistent naysayers in both groups as well.

Obviously, based on your comments in this thread and many others, you are one of the more critical Marriott/Vistana owners. How would you suggest a group of owners send them a message so they don't feel "they can act with impunity"? If you think the rest of us are mere Marriott lap dogs, and you think more activism could send a "message" to Marriott Vacations Worldwide, maybe you should take the lead in organizing an owners' rebellion amongst the 700,000 owner families that own with MVW.

I don’t believe Marriott is completely indifferent to the sentiments expressed through social media. If the most frequent commentators on this site, and others, assert that we should be content with everything they do what incentive does Marriott have to make any changes? I cannot definitively state that most owners are content. If this were beyond doubt and professionally concluded, Marriott would likely provide more details regarding the purported 85% satisfaction rate. However, it raises suspicion that they have not done so.

To illustrate, I previously mentioned two similar cases handled differently by Marriott and Hilton owners. When an obscure Scottish resort faced expulsion, Hilton owners organized a mini-revolt, leading Hilton to reconsider. Not a single comment suggested the Scottish resort should comply with HGVC demands. Conversely, when Marriott threatened to sever ties with Grand Residence Tahoe, many Marriott owners directed their pressure not towards Marriott but the Board of Directors, even before relevant facts were known.

I don’t know if this reflects the overall satisfaction of Marriott owners, or it means that some of the more critical voices were attacked and left. I have been told numerous times to either sell or remain silent. How many others, over the years, might have bid farewell after facing similar attacks?

 

[Hindsite]

I have been told numerous times to either sell or remain silent.

Who's telling you to remain silent?

 

[JIMinNC]

I don’t believe Marriott is completely indifferent to the sentiments expressed through social media. If the most frequent commentators on this site, and others, assert that we should be content with everything they do what incentive does Marriott have to make any changes? I cannot definitively state that most owners are content. If this were beyond doubt and professionally concluded, Marriott would likely provide more details regarding the purported 85% satisfaction rate. However, it raises suspicion that they have not done so.

I spent 20+ years in marketing for a large Fortune 50 company, much of which was in marketing research. We did constant customer satisfaction research, 99% of which was never publicized. Even though they don't share it externally, I'm confident MVW has better ways to monitor owner satisfaction at a very granular level than stressing over comments on a small Marriott social media message board. Do they monitor social media? Sure they do. But I'm also fairly sure they understand TUG is not all that representative of their overall base. We are a unique subset.

To illustrate, I previously mentioned two similar cases handled differently by Marriott and Hilton owners. When an obscure Scottish resort faced expulsion, Hilton owners organized a mini-revolt, leading Hilton to reconsider. Not a single comment suggested the Scottish resort should comply with HGVC demands. Conversely, when Marriott threatened to sever ties with Grand Residence Tahoe, many Marriott owners directed their pressure not towards Marriott but the Board of Directors, even before relevant facts were known.

I don’t know if this reflects the overall satisfaction of Marriott owners, or it means that some of the more critical voices were attacked and left. I have been told numerous times to either sell or remain silent. How many others, over the years, might have bid farewell after facing similar attacks?

If most MVC owners are not content, I guess starting your Marriott owner uprising should be easy, right? Keep us updated...

 

[timsi]

I spent 20+ years in marketing for a large Fortune 50 company, much of which was in marketing research. We did constant customer satisfaction research, 99% of which was never publicized. Even though they don't share it externally, I'm confident MVW has better ways to monitor owner satisfaction at a very granular level than stressing over comments on a small Marriott social media message board. Do they monitor social media? Sure they do. But I'm also fairly sure they understand TUG is not all that representative of their overall base. We are a unique subset.


If most MVC owners are not content, I guess starting your Marriott owner uprising should be easy, right? Keep us updated...

Listen, people are not going to start an "uprising" about their phone bills or their timeshare maintenance fees, and I think we can maintain a more serious discussion. Are you trying to say that absence of an "uprising", should be proof that owners are happy?

Fair enough, companies may not share their satisfaction rate. However, this is not the case here as Marriott brags about it, so putting some meat on the bone would make sense.

 

[JIMinNC]

Listen, people are not going to start an "uprising" about their phone bills or their timeshare maintenance fees, and I think we can maintain a more serious discussion. Are you trying to say that absence of an "uprising", should be proof that owners are happy?

Fair enough, companies may not share their satisfaction rate. However, this is not the case here as Marriott brags about it, so putting some meat on the bone would make sense.

No, the lack of an uprising doesn't prove satisfaction, but you implied that compliant Marriott owners were enabling them to act with "impunity". How do you suggest we hold them "accountable"? By just making repetitive critical comments on a message board?

TUG Marriott owners are generally a very knowledgeable and demanding crowd, so we are probably among the hardest to please, but we also know more about how to effectively use our ownership. As a result of that knowledge, perhaps we're not really Marriott lap dogs as you've intimated, we just know how to use our ownership so we're happy. Clearly many others aren't - lots of people sell or exit their timeshares every year. My point is simply just because we defend Marriott against your constant attacks, doesn't make us Marriott apologists. We just know how to make our ownership work for us.

Companies DO often share high level info about satisfaction - as does MVW - they just don't share the details. No one that matters externally probably cares much about those details. The investor community cares mainly about revenue, earnings, EPS, growth rates, dividends, etc. Satisfaction plays into all that of course - that's why they share high level satisfaction rates in investor presentations - but companies rarely share more detailed research data. The details are considered proprietary competitive data and Wall Street doesn't ask for it. I've never heard an analyst in a conference call ask for more details on customer satisfaction research data. For them, it's all about the financials. I doubt most owners really care about corporate research data either.

 

[timsi]

No, the lack of an uprising doesn't prove satisfaction, but you implied that compliant Marriott owners were enabling them to act with "impunity". How do you suggest we hold them "accountable"?

TUG Marriott owners are generally a very knowledgeable and demanding crowd, so we are probably among the hardest to please, but we also know more about how to effectively use our ownership. As a result of that knowledge, perhaps we're not really Marriott lap dogs as you've intimated, we just know how to use our ownership so we're happy. Clearly many others aren't - lots of people sell or exit their timeshares every year. My point is simply just because we defend Marriott against your constant attacks, doesn't make us Marriott apologists. We just know how to make our ownership work for us.

Companies DO often share high level info about satisfaction - as does MVW - they just don't share the details. No one that matters externally really cares about those details. The investor community cares mainly about revenue, earnings, EPS, growth rates, dividends, etc. Satisfaction plays into all that of course - that's why they share high level satisfaction rates in investor presentations - but companies rarely share more detailed research data. The details are considered proprietary competitive data and Wall Street doesn't ask for it. I've never heard an analyst in a conference call ask for more details on customer research data. For them, it's all about the financials. I doubt most owners really care about corporate research data either.

A demanding crowd? Over the past couple of days, you've been defending the increases in MF initially refuting the idea that they surpass HGVC for example. Later, you acknowledged that they might indeed be higher but concluded with a nonchalant 'it is what it is.' This pattern extends to other aspects, be it inventory, IT, and more; you consistently manage to find a positive angle.

When it comes to your own usage costs, the upfront capital is consistently overlooked. When you did mention it, it's justified as a better investment than Lehman Brothers. That sets quite a high bar, wouldn't you say?

 

[JIMinNC]

A demanding crowd? Over the past couple of days, you've been defending the increases in MF initially refuting the idea that they surpass HGVC for example. Later, you acknowledged that they might indeed be higher but concluded with a nonchalant 'it is what it is.' This pattern extends to other aspects, be it inventory, IT, and more; you consistently manage to find a positive angle.

When it comes to your own usage costs, the upfront capital is consistently overlooked. When you did mention it, it's justified as a better investment than Lehman Brothers. That sets quite a high bar, wouldn't you say?

Uh, I didn't make the Lehman Brothers comment. You are confusing me with another MVC lap dog.

A few other corrections:

• What I initially said in post #258 was that after my cursory review of increases in the MVC and HGVC fee stickies "it does appear that HGVC increases MAY tend to look a little lower than MVC, but it doesn't seem grossly different on the whole." Later, you presented some info that indicated it may be more significant than my initial impression, so I acknowledged that it indeed may be. I did say I don't know why there is a difference, but acknowledged there appears to be a difference.
• Yes, I tend to talk a lot about the positives - but that's only because my experience (with both MVC and HGVC) has been almost totally positive - I've never failed to get the exact reservation we want, we love the resorts and locations in both systems, and we love what we've been able to do with our ownership over the last almost 10 years. I'm a happy owner. Should I look for things to be unhappy about so I can complain on a message board and appear less compliant?
• I don't recall ever defending MVW IT (or HGV IT) because both leave a lot to be desired. If I did, maybe I was drunk...
• I don't like increasing maintenance fees any more than you do, but I also don't like increasing hotel costs, or increasing air fare costs (have you priced Business Class seats to Europe lately...eeek!). My "it is what it is" comment was simply to acknowledge that I choose not to worry about things I can't control. As long as the economics of our MVC and HGVC weeks and points continue to compare favorably to alternative hotel costs - and for us they absolutely still do - we'll likely continue to be happy campers, we'll just pay more across the board for our travel. We will continue spending our kids' inheritance on great experiences.
• I absolutely do not overlook our cost of capital, but our four resale deeded weeks cost us a total of about $21,000 between 2014 and 2018. I think we could get close to that total today if we wanted out, but even if we couldn't, our savings versus hotels has already easily recouped that upfront cost and any opportunity cost (unless maybe we had bought Nvidia instead of timeshares ). Our MVC Points were bought retail, so that cost of capital will take more years to recoup (if ever). We did that to gain flexibility by enrolling our resale weeks, thus giving us other usage options as life changes come along. We explicitly knew we were paying a high price for flexibility and options, and didn't really worry about whether it was the most cost effective option. We had the money, so we sleep better at night now knowing we have multiple usage options.

And yes, TUGgers are absolutely a demanding crowd, as am I. If our ownership didn't work for us, I'd be the first to speak up about it. In fact, that's exactly how we came to be a MVC and HGVC owners in the first place. We bought our first timeshare back in 1998 at what is now the Kaanapali Beach Club (a former Diamond Resort). That ownership was great for going to Hawaii (we bought there before the Marriott and Westin Maui ownership opportunities existed), but that ownership sucked for going anywhere else but Hawaii and Orlando. We hated RCI trading, and in the old days of TUG I complained often and mightily about DRI and RCI. I then started educating myself on HGVC and MVC here on TUG. In 2014, we sold our DRI week and bought MVC. We added HGVC and our MVC Hawaii weeks in 2018, bought points to enroll the Hawaii weeks in 2020, and haven't looked back since.

 

[Hindsite]

A demanding crowd?

Go on, admit that you like the attention and entertainment value of being vexatious.

 

[timsi]

Uh, I didn't make the Lehman Brothers comment. You are confusing me with another MVC lap dog.

A few other corrections:

• What I initially said in post #258 was that after my cursory review of increases in the MVC and HGVC fee stickies "it does appear that HGVC increases MAY tend to look a little lower than MVC, but it doesn't seem grossly different on the whole." Later, you presented some info that indicated it may be more significant than my initial impression, so I acknowledged that it indeed may be. I did say I don't know why there is a difference, but acknowledged there appears to be a difference.
• Yes, I tend to talk a lot about the positives - but that's only because my experience (with both MVC and HGVC) has been almost totally positive - I've never failed to get the exact reservation we want, we love the resorts and locations in both systems, and we love what we've been able to do with our ownership over the last almost 10 years. I'm a happy owner. Should I look for things to be unhappy about so I can complain on a message board and appear less compliant?
• I don't recall ever defending MVW IT (or HGV IT) because both leave a lot to be desired. If I did, maybe I was drunk...
• I don't like increasing maintenance fees any more than you do, but I also don't like increasing hotel costs, or increasing air fare costs (have you priced Business Class seats to Europe lately...eeek!). My "it is what it is" comment was simply to acknowledge that I choose not to worry about things I can't control. As long as the economics of our MVC and HGVC weeks and points continue to compare favorably to alternative hotel costs - and for us they absolutely still do - we'll likely continue to be happy campers, we'll just pay more across the board for our travel. We will continue spending our kids' inheritance on great experiences.
• I absolutely do not overlook our cost of capital, but our four resale deeded weeks cost us a total of about $21,000 between 2014 and 2018. I think we could get close to that total today if we wanted out, but even if we couldn't, our savings versus hotels has already easily recouped that upfront cost and any opportunity cost (unless maybe we had bought Nvidia instead of timeshares ). Our MVC Points were bought retail, so that cost of capital will take more years to recoup (if ever). We did that to gain flexibility by enrolling our resale weeks, thus giving us other usage options as life changes come along. We explicitly knew we were paying a high price for flexibility and options, and didn't really worry about whether it was the most cost effective option. We had the money, so we sleep better at night now knowing we have multiple usage options.

And yes, TUGgers are absolutely a demanding crowd, as am I. If our ownership didn't work for us, I'd be the first to speak up about it. In fact, that's exactly how we came to be a MVC and HGVC owners in the first place. We bought our first timeshare back in 1998 at what is now the Kaanapali Beach Club (a former Diamond Resort). That ownership was great for going to Hawaii (we bought there before the Marriott and Westin Maui ownership opportunities existed), but that ownership sucked for going anywhere else but Hawaii and Orlando. We hated RCI trading, and in the old days of TUG I complained often and mightily about DRI and RCI. I then started educating myself on HGVC and MVC here on TUG. In 2014, we sold our DRI week and bought MVC. We added HGVC and our MVC Hawaii weeks in 2018, bought points to enroll the Hawaii weeks in 2020, and haven't looked back since.

Unlike some Vistana and Marriott owners, I don't subscribe to the notion of a high level conspiracy to deliberately escalate maintenance fees. I highly doubt that CEOs convene executive meetings with directives to boost management income by a specific percentage each year. However, it is possible that internal mechanisms and operational dynamics might inadvertently lead to such increases without explicit orders. It's conceivable that lower-ranking managers overseeing multiple resorts could be driven by self-interest—aiming for larger budgets to enhance their influence, expand their teams, expect promotions, and potentially earn bonuses by outperforming their peers. Even if they don’t take an active role in increasing the MF, they may be more sympathetic to proposals coming from resorts to spend on certain projects, and less inclined to actively see if they can do more with less. This is speculative of course but you may have encountered situations where decisions are influenced by factors not necessarily dictated from the top. We can't definitively know whether maintenance fees should be higher or lower, or if upper management actively pressures resort management to extract more revenue. However, what remains evident is that, without some owner pushback, there's a higher likelihood that maintenance fee increases will continue to surpass those of peers like HGVC.

In Orlando, not only is the 2024 increase higher, but the overall cost also appears to be 20-25% more than HGVC. This suggests that this year's surge isn't an isolated incident.

Concerning your own usage value, you acknowledge that you may never break even with what you bought retail. Unfortunately this is probably the case for most retail owners, especially those who have bought more recently. Even a hybrid solution should take into account all the upfront costs, and not ignore the more expensive part when conveniently so.