Why I like HGVMax... Timeshare Traveler Episode 184

[dayooper]

That was more my view as I am more familiar with Starwood/Vistana as they qualify resales as developers weeks. So as I understood, they would be allowing those11,200 resale points to be used in max and count toward elite status, but the 16,200 combined points would not be enough to gets us into an elite status level. But IMHO a bit too steep for me, at $40,000 plus $1,800 annual maintenance fees on the additional 5,000 Max points, for any added value.

Did they explain what Max points are?

 

[bigbillf]

And as far as the owners update, as we have had many owners updates under our belt, this one was one of the more mellow and low pressure. And only took an hour. Definitely worth the incentive along with some pretty damn good brownies at their canteen. We even snagged a few roadies on the way out. Definitely worth the hour.

 

[bigbillf]

Did they explain what Max points are?

They definitely did not get into all that, except Max only has a two night mini vs three nights for the Club and Diamond resorts are included. Blue green vacations is still a work in process. But IMHO, HGVC resales is good enough for us, definitely not worth the additional costs and I didn't really push the representative more than just listening (obviously not very well) to his presentation and getting out of there.

 

[GT75]

Actually, I don't think that they were explaining at all what they were trying to "sell" you. It sounds like they were selling your HVC/DRI trust points which is different from HGVC. I think that you would have ended up owning 5000 pts in HVC (former Diamond) which were Max qualified. But you would still own separately HGVC side which wasn't Max qualified. You would have had two separate accounts with two separate club dues.

But, of course, in the end it doesn't matter because you didn't fall into their trap. Congratulations. Well done. Thanks also for the update.

 

[dayooper]

Actually, I don't think that they were explaining at all what they were trying to "sell" you. It sounds like they were selling your HVC/DRI trust points which is different from HGVC. I think that you would have ended up owning 5000 pts in HVC (former Diamond) which were Max qualified. But you would still own separately HGVC side which wasn't Max qualified. You would have had two separate accounts with two separate club dues.

But, of course, in the end it doesn't matter because you didn't fall into their trap. Congratulations. Well done. Thanks also for the update.

Exactly what I think as well. Calling HVC HGVC Max points is so misleading. Another reason for me to avoid sales.

 

[Mongoose]

We are owners of DRI. We do not think MAX is worth the cost with all its restrictions. Also we would lose many of our DRI Benefits. Plus we can Book via RCI more than 6 months in advance. We can pay years of RCI exchange fees for them cost of joining MAX without the MAX Program Fees. Our RCI Membership fees are paid by Worldmark.

We also question Reviews by a person trying to gain benefits from the Organization by their reviews.

How do you see availability in RCI to DRI or HGVMAX?

 

[dioxide45]

Actually, I don't think that they were explaining at all what they were trying to "sell" you. It sounds like they were selling your HVC/DRI trust points which is different from HGVC. I think that you would have ended up owning 5000 pts in HVC (former Diamond) which were Max qualified. But you would still own separately HGVC side which wasn't Max qualified. You would have had two separate accounts with two separate club dues.

But, of course, in the end it doesn't matter because you didn't fall into their trap. Congratulations. Well done. Thanks also for the update.

I am curious what collection they are selling out of?

 

[geist1223]

How do you see availability in RCI to DRI or HGVMAX?

Used my Worldmark Account access to RCI for HGVC.

 

[Mongoose]

Used my Worldmark Account access to RCI for HGVC.

Understand, I meant how good is availability in RCI compared to DRI or MAX? Just thinking about picking up some more WM.

 

[geist1223]

Availability good. Able to Book 13 months in advance. This is better than MAX (6 months) or most HGVC (9 months). Also look at first day of Booking not last day. But remember I believe if you join RCI with resell Worldmark Credits it is a RCI Weeks Account.

 

[Mongoose]

Availability good. Able to Book 13 months in advance. This is better than MAX (6 months) or most HGVC (9 months). Also look at first day of Booking not last day. But remember I believe if you join RCI with resell Worldmark Credits it is a RCI Weeks Account.

Yes. That is unfortunate.

 

[cd5]

Exactly what I think as well. Calling HVC HGVC Max points is so misleading. Another reason for me to avoid sales.

That's exactly what they were doing when I went to a sales pitch in August. I'm an Embarc member and what I was "offered" for getting into Max was 3,500 points at $16k and then lowered to $12k usd. That's expensive for Embarc points from the developer. The thing is, the points were DRI (the salesperson said nothing about this but I noticed it myself to his dismay) and could not be used together with my Embarc points until the 6 month mark in HGV Max. 3,500 DRI points is absolutely useless to book something in the US Collection. I was not going to buy a few Diamond points just to get into HGV Max, they would have be Embarc if I even thought it was a good idea - which I don't. They have a very large number of DRI points in the developer inventory and are not above using unethical tricks to get them sold unfortunately.

 

[Mongoose]

That's exactly what they were doing when I went to a sales pitch in August. I'm an Embarc member and what I was "offered" for getting into Max was 3,500 points at $16k and then lowered to $12k usd. That's expensive for Embarc points from the developer. The thing is, the points were DRI (the salesperson said nothing about this but I noticed it myself to his dismay) and could not be used together with my Embarc points until the 6 month mark in HGV Max. 3,500 DRI points is absolutely useless to book something in the US Collection. I was not going to buy a few Diamond points just to get into HGV Max, they would have be Embarc if I even thought it was a good idea - which I don't. They have a very large number of DRI points in the developer inventory and are not above using unethical tricks to get them sold unfortunately.

What were the MF’s

 

[WaikikiFirst]

The thing is, the points were DRI (the salesperson said nothing about this but I noticed it myself

That stuff is fraud. I generally think caveat emptor about people who pay nonsensical thous of $s for an actual deeded week. but that stuff with "points" and blurring the line of the "families", "collections", whatevertheywanttocallthem is fraud.

 

[cd5]

What were the MF’s

We didn't get that far. However, I do know that most Diamond locations have higher fees than Embarc... What was offered was Palm Desert Canyon resort.

 

[geist1223]

As discussed above after Post #1 lots of good reasons to avoid HGV/MAX.

 

[dayooper]

As discussed above after Post #1 lots of good reasons to avoid HGV.

Lots of good reasons to avoid presentations. We love our HGVC ownership and have had many great vacations in their accommodations.

 

[Mongoose]

Lots of good reasons to avoid presentations. We love our HGVC ownership and have had many great vacations in their accommodations.

Agree. I find they are a bad distraction from your vacation and can ruin your mood. Just not worth it to me. My time is more valuable.

 

[johnnyrocket237]

It's interesting that sales is calling these "HGV Max points." I guess they are trying to put lipstick on a pig?

MAX Pts basically means they are transitioning into pts and away from deeds.

How do two work together?

They have tons of crap inventory no one wants to buy. So they throw them all into a giant trust, pool their points together and sell points for a ridiculous amount, pointing at all the deeded properties (prime ocean view) to the unwary buyers, who don’t realize that legacy owners actually own deeds to all the prime properties.

MF are higher because the trust has to pay out MF for ALL its properties. So if there is 1,000,000 pts worth of property in the trust, and they only sold 250,000 max pts, max owners are paying 4x the average deed. (Made up numbers for illustration.)

So max points you are buying a portfolio of all the properties sales couldn’t get rid of, and you’re paying top dollar.

 

[johnnyrocket237]

One comment, as we had an owners update last week. HGVC offered us 5,000 HGVMax and qualify one of our 11,200 LV Paradise resale weeks into Max for $40,000. However, no changes in our deeded week, but our maintenance fees would increase by $1,800. Our maintenance fees at Paradise run just over $.10/point. But adding an additional $1,800 per year with only adding 5,000 max points raises our overall combined annual maintenance fees to just over $.18 per point. So in addition to the $40,000 buy-in, it also raises our annual maintenance fees a good $1,300 over what we are paying on our LV resale. Seems to me, the additional benefits being in Max over just being in the HGV Club has to really be beneficial for the additional buy-in and the additional annual maintenance fees. That being......is this hill worth the climb? BTW, the HGVC representative was very cordial and low on the pressure. We were done, did not bite and on our way in just about one hour.

As of today all the max elite benefits on the club website lol. Just a reminder those benefits are not guaranteed and can go away at any point.

 

[dayooper]

MAX Pts basically means they are transitioning into pts and away from deeds.

How do two work together?

They have tons of crap inventory no one wants to buy. So they throw them all into a giant trust, pool their points together and sell points for a ridiculous amount, pointing at all the deeded properties (prime ocean view) to the unwary buyers, who don’t realize that legacy owners actually own deeds to all the prime properties.

MF are higher because the trust has to pay out MF for ALL its properties. So if there is 1,000,000 pts worth of property in the trust, and they only sold 250,000 max pts, max owners are paying 4x the average deed. (Made up numbers for illustration.)

So max points you are buying a portfolio of all the properties sales couldn’t get rid of, and you’re paying top dollar.

No, I do not believe they are transitioning. I could be wrong, but aren’t “Max Points” actually DRI/HVC trust points they are trying to pass off as “HGVC trust” points. Only being able to book HGVC at 6 months while booking HVC at 13 and 10 months is the dead giveaway. They have an over abundance of these points they need to sell. In previous earnings calls and even the discussion, HGV president Mark Wang has lauded the dual nature of the deeded HGVC and trust DRI/HVC points.

That’s interesting on the MF’s for the trust. I assumed that trust points owners only paid MF’s on the points they owned. @youppi @geist1223 @dioxide45 can you verify?

 

[johnnyrocket237]

The statement “qualify one of our 11,200 LV Paradise resale weeks into Max for $40,000” is concerning.
in my reading of the rules, you are either max member or you are not. If you are a max member, all your points should count towards max offering; unless this just means counting 1 property for “status.”

 

[johnnyrocket237]

No, I do not believe they are transitioning. I could be wrong, but aren’t “Max Points” actually DRI/HVC trust points they are trying to pass off as “HGVC trust” points. Only being able to book HGVC at 6 months while booking HVC at 13 and 10 months is the dead giveaway. They have an over abundance of these points they need to sell. In previous earnings calls and even the discussion, HGV president Mark Wang has lauded the dual nature of the deeded HGVC and trust DRI/HVC points.

That’s interesting on the MF’s for the trust. I assumed that trust points owners only paid MF’s on the points they owned. @youppi @geist1223 @dioxide45 can you verify?

In September a sales guy told me they would be doing away with deeds entirely in favor of points only, which would run $40,000 for 5,000 pts, which sounds a lot like what this offer is..
I wonder they could potentially toss HGVC and DRI into same trust. whole gambit feels dishonest

 

[johnnyrocket237]

One comment, as we had an owners update last week. HGVC offered us 5,000 HGVMax and qualify one of our 11,200 LV Paradise resale weeks into Max for $40,000. However, no changes in our deeded week, but our maintenance fees would increase by $1,800. Our maintenance fees at Paradise run just over $.10/point. But adding an additional $1,800 per year with only adding 5,000 max points raises our overall combined annual maintenance fees to just over $.18 per point. So in addition to the $40,000 buy-in, it also raises our annual maintenance fees a good $1,300 over what we are paying on our LV resale. Seems to me, the additional benefits being in Max over just being in the HGV Club has to really be beneficial for the additional buy-in and the additional annual maintenance fees. That being......is this hill worth the climb? BTW, the HGVC representative was very cordial and low on the pressure. We were done, did not bite and on our way in just about one hour.

Deeded units did not change. You are calculating your average new MF under their proposal. But that total $1,800 is just on your 5,000 pts, so you’re buying 5,000 pts for $40,000 at $0.36/pt MF. (Meanwhile I’m paying $0.08 for ocean view in grand islander backed up by actual deed… but in general HGVC MF ~ $0.10/pt)

I think this is good evidence for my theory that MF for Max pts are total MF for trust / sold pts for trust,… they are essentially charging owners fees for all their unsold properties. So even if they have bulk pts unsold, they are not paying exorbitant MF on them year after year.

 

[dayooper]

In September a sales guy told me they would be doing away with deeds entirely in favor of points only, which would run $40,000 for 5,000 pts, which sounds a lot like what this offer is..
I wonder they could potentially toss HGVC and DRI into same trust. whole gambit feels dishonest

You know how you can tell a timeshare salesperson is lying? Their lips are moving. They were trying to convince you to purchase a deed on the spot for a sale.