Why Buy Points?

[goodbadugly]

The customer model for buying MVC points has disappeared. It's in the math....

Example 1. Book a 2 day stay (May 10-13) at the Washington DC MayFlower. Through MVC the cost is $931.50 (1150 pts. X .81 MF). Through Marriott Hotel website $663.00. A difference of $268.50. In addition if you have Marriott Titanium directly from Marriott you receive breakfast and a 4:00PM checkout time vs MVC 10:00 AM.

Example 2. Book a Collette "Japan: Past & Present" tour. Through MVC the cost is $23,085 (28550 pts. X .81 MF) for two people. Book directly through Collette and the cost is $13,598. A difference of $9,487.

Example 3. Book a seven day stay Oceanside view at Marriott OceanWatch (Myrtle Beach) in July. Through MVC the cost is $3381.50 (4175 X .81 MF). Book through Redweek for $3000+. I don't know what Redweek charges renters. Let's say 10%. For a total of $3300.00. Basically breakeven. BUT try getting a week at Oceanwatch using points in July!!! You'll be on the phone or computer at 9:00 AM Tuesday, 12 months out!! Good luck!!! At the same time I could book through Redweek today for this July!!!!

So I am sure there are scenarios that are not as blatant at these. But...do the math!

By the way I did not include the sunk costs of buying the points. It would cost $22,962.50 (4175 X $5.50) to buy the needed points for Example #3. The $5.50 is based on after sale points ($2.50/pt. + $3.00/pt. MVC junk fee charge). And of course you still have to pay the annual MF.

 

[Pamplemousse]

The customer model for buying MVC points has disappeared. It's in the math....

Example 1. Book a 2 day stay (May 10-13) at the Washington DC MayFlower. Through MVC the cost is $931.50 (1150 pts. X .81 MF). Through Marriott Hotel website $663.00. A difference of $268.50. In addition if you have Marriott Titanium directly from Marriott you receive breakfast and a 4:00PM checkout time vs MVC 10:00 AM.

Example 2. Book a Collette "Japan: Past & Present" tour. Through MVC the cost is $23,085 (28550 pts. X .81 MF) for two people. Book directly through Collette and the cost is $13,598. A difference of $9,487.

Example 3. Book a seven day stay Oceanside view at Marriott OceanWatch (Myrtle Beach) in July. Through MVC the cost is $3381.50 (4175 X .81 MF). Book through Redweek for $3000+. I don't know what Redweek charges renters. Let's say 10%. For a total of $3300.00. Basically breakeven. BUT try getting a week at Oceanwatch using points in July!!! You'll be on the phone or computer at 9:00 AM Tuesday, 12 months out!! Good luck!!! At the same time I could book through Redweek today for this July!!!!

So I am sure there are scenarios that are not as blatant at these. But...do the math!

By the way I did not include the sunk costs of buying the points. It would cost $22,962.50 (4175 X $5.50) to buy the needed points for Example #3. The $5.50 is based on after sale points ($2.50/pt. + $3.00/pt. MVC junk fee charge). And of course you still have to pay the annual MF.

I actually recently did the math for my 4 most recent stays (2023-2025).
I am a long time owner of an enrolled week and points (15 years+) so I don’t take purchase costs into account anymore.
I also don’t book tours or hotels with Abound points.

In all 4 cases it cost less to book with Abound points than cash, even valuing them at $1 a point.
My low “savings” was $250 for a week in Maui.
Twice the savings was over $1000 (Crystal Shores and Beachplace towers).

If you want to look at any trip from a purely financial standpoint you would certainly always run the numbers. I have paid cash, exchanged on II, booked with Bonvoy points and rented from redweek depending on the circumstances and availability.

It is easiest to book 12 months out- I booked Maui that way- but most times I just keep search or place a waitlist request and time sharing has worked well for us.

But sounds like you have done your research and Abound points won’t work for you. Just know it really does vary, what you found is not the case for everyone at all. It’s also very different now than when we first bought our week.

 

[claraj]

The math has worked for me when booking at ski resorts during ski season.

 

[Dean]

The customer model for buying MVC points has disappeared. It's in the math....

Example 1. Book a 2 day stay (May 10-13) at the Washington DC MayFlower. Through MVC the cost is $931.50 (1150 pts. X .81 MF). Through Marriott Hotel website $663.00. A difference of $268.50. In addition if you have Marriott Titanium directly from Marriott you receive breakfast and a 4:00PM checkout time vs MVC 10:00 AM.

Example 2. Book a Collette "Japan: Past & Present" tour. Through MVC the cost is $23,085 (28550 pts. X .81 MF) for two people. Book directly through Collette and the cost is $13,598. A difference of $9,487.

Example 3. Book a seven day stay Oceanside view at Marriott OceanWatch (Myrtle Beach) in July. Through MVC the cost is $3381.50 (4175 X .81 MF). Book through Redweek for $3000+. I don't know what Redweek charges renters. Let's say 10%. For a total of $3300.00. Basically breakeven. BUT try getting a week at Oceanwatch using points in July!!! You'll be on the phone or computer at 9:00 AM Tuesday, 12 months out!! Good luck!!! At the same time I could book through Redweek today for this July!!!!

So I am sure there are scenarios that are not as blatant at these. But...do the math!

By the way I did not include the sunk costs of buying the points. It would cost $22,962.50 (4175 X $5.50) to buy the needed points for Example #3. The $5.50 is based on after sale points ($2.50/pt. + $3.00/pt. MVC junk fee charge). And of course you still have to pay the annual MF.

I think these are extreme examples. IMO there are NO cash type options (Collete, cruise, etc) that make sense to buy points and really none where it makes sense to even use points other than MAYBE a use or lose situation and even then there are essentially always better options. Still I think it's a specialty situation where it makes sense to buy trust points, mostly where one is close to the next status tier and the tier has a ROI expected. Where getting points makes sense at all involves either buying a cheaper retail week like the recent St. Kitt's offering or even better, owning/buying a good resale week(s) and enrolling it for a controlled amount likely with a purchase in Spain or similar. Still definitely a case by case scenario where one get get access to options they are unlikely to get on an exchange and/or for shorter MVC stays where the points makes more sense than cash.

 

[goodbadugly]

I too have been a deed and points owner for 15+ years. My comments were directed at the point system and how they will sustain that model. I have three deeds and I am fine with them. Particularly because they're MF's are lower than the points. It's the point system that I really have a problem with. Especially when they charge a "vig" when you use points vs. weeks. Also they should be more "giving" when it comes to Pulse properties. Especially since they fall under the MVC umbrella.

 

[goodbadugly]

I think these are extreme examples. IMO there are NO cash type options (Collete, cruise, etc) that make sense to buy points and really none where it makes sense to even use points other than MAYBE a use or lose situation and even then there are essentially always better options. Still I think it's a specialty situation where it makes sense to buy trust points, mostly where one is close to the next status tier and the tier has a ROI expected. Where getting points makes sense at all involves either buying a cheaper retail week like the recent St. Kitt's offering or even better, owning/buying a good resale week(s) and enrolling it for a controlled amount likely with a purchase in Spain or similar. Still definitely a case by case scenario where one get get access to options they are unlikely to get on an exchange and/or for shorter MVC stays where the points makes more sense than cash.

My Example #3 is not an extreme case. In fact, for high demand properties it is the rule! There are many ways to acquire points and MVC makes it extremely easy to do so. But it can be very difficult to use them. High demand properties are extremely difficult to book. Being a Chairman does not help! If you were starting out today would you just buy points... no deeds?

 

[Red elephant]

My Example #3 is not an extreme case. In fact, for high demand properties it is the rule! There are many ways to acquire points and MVC makes it extremely easy to do so. But it can be very difficult to use them. High demand properties are extremely difficult to book. Being a Chairman does not help! If you were starting out today would you just buy points... no deeds?

No. But I am an informed Tug member.

 

[rthib]

My Example #3 is not an extreme case. In fact, for high demand properties it is the rule! There are many ways to acquire points and MVC makes it extremely easy to do so. But it can be very difficult to use them. High demand properties are extremely difficult to book. Being a Chairman does not help! If you were starting out today would you just buy points... no deeds?

#1 - Points are rarely a deal at City Collection. They are just there to make the portfolio look good.
#2 - Any use of points other than stays are always a bad deal
#3 - Points are not as good a value when doing 7 days

But try this with $/Weeks and tell me the cost vs Points
And this was Christmas and New Years

Kauai - 2 Bedroom 5 Nights
Big Island - 1 Bedroom 4 Nights
Maui - Ocean Front 5 Nights

 

[dioxide45]

Example 3. Book a seven day stay Oceanside view at Marriott OceanWatch (Myrtle Beach) in July. Through MVC the cost is $3381.50 (4175 X .81 MF). Book through Redweek for $3000+. I don't know what Redweek charges renters. Let's say 10%. For a total of $3300.00. Basically breakeven. BUT try getting a week at Oceanwatch using points in July!!! You'll be on the phone or computer at 9:00 AM Tuesday, 12 months out!! Good luck!!! At the same time I could book through Redweek today for this July!!!!

Perhaps part of the reason for lack of availability is those weeks sitting on Redweek for rent?

 

[Red elephant]

Perhaps part of the reason for lack of availability is those weeks sitting on Redweek for rent?

I just checked and there are 195 for July likely not all points. So in May those will become available 60 days for points?

 

[travelhacker]

For the most part, I don't think buying points make sense (certainly not retail). However, there are a lot of places within the points system that provide excellent value.

A few examples:
1) I am booking a trip for 7 families at Marriott Crystal Shores. The week we will be there isn't currently available, but the cost through the Marriott website would be about $4000 with taxes (for the week after) . If I were to use trust points it would cost around $1100 in maintenance fees per week. On Redweek the cheapest options during my dates are $2500 per week.

2) Studios and smaller units can provide an excellent value. My sister wanted to go to Kauai for her honeymoon. I booked her 5 nights at the Sheraton and 2 nights at the Westin Princeville. The cost in maintenance fees for trust points would be about $1200. Any comparable hotel option would have been $300 - $400 per night.

3) We are in Colorado and love to spend time in the mountains during the summer. I just booked a two night stay in a 2 bedroom at the Westin Riverfront for 280 points. .81 x 280 ends up at less than $115 per night . Any place that would be close to comparable in size for sleeping our family would be $300+ per night and wouldn't hold a candle to the Westin Riverfront.

Because I own enrolled weeks, these deals are significantly better. My maintenance fee per point runs less than 50 cents per point, which makes these options far, far better. I am giving up very good weeks when I elect, but it's a lot simpler for me to elect into points and use them for options that make more sense for my family.

Timeshares are always going to favor those who understand the nuances of the system, and if you want to book nights here and there with a few months of notice, you are going to get burned. If you are like many TUGgers and understand the constraints of the system you can maximize value and can be very pleased with what you own.

 

[Dean]

My Example #3 is not an extreme case. In fact, for high demand properties it is the rule! There are many ways to acquire points and MVC makes it extremely easy to do so. But it can be very difficult to use them. High demand properties are extremely difficult to book. Being a Chairman does not help! If you were starting out today would you just buy points... no deeds?

It depends on how you look at it, one can make the numbers say about anything they want. That example assumes that current prices and availability stay similar when looked at over time and are representative of prices much further in advance. It also assumes that one only owns/uses Trust points. Certainly renting privately has advantages and disadvantages as does owning to use points though I'd suggest that having enrolled weeks is a much better situation assuming the fees per point are better as mine and many others are. While there are challenges in using points (weeks too BTW), I've never not been able to get what I wanted and planned ahead for and that includes Aruba, HI, Crystal Shores, Ocean Point, Grande Ocean, Surfwatch as the most difficult things I've booked. No argument that buying trust points as a starting and main position is challenging but I'd point out that there are advantages (and disadvantages) over renting, especially for higher status like Chairman's club. For many locations there are also applicable taxes, though often not collected, that would be avoided by using what's owned. I would agree that buying trust points is generally not a good idea and that using points for cash type exchanges is essentially always a bad idea. I do not agree that the points model offers no benefit or is unworkable. For me timeshares offer a savings over other options for similar vacations but there is significant cost AND commitment but there is also potential benefit/enjoyment beyond the financials.

 

[goodbadugly]

#1 - Points are rarely a deal at City Collection. They are just there to make the portfolio look good.
#2 - Any use of points other than stays are always a bad deal
#3 - Points are not as good a value when doing 7 days

But try this with $/Weeks and tell me the cost vs Points
And this was Christmas and New Years

Kauai - 2 Bedroom 5 Nights
Big Island - 1 Bedroom 4 Nights
Maui - Ocean Front 5 Nights

Kauai. Redweek asking $3900 for 7 days, Oceanview Week of 12/19-12/26. MVC 5100 pts. @ .81= $4131. MVC $231 more
Maui. Redweek asking $4850 for 7 days, Ocean Front. Week of 12/19-12/26. MVC 5100 pts @ .81 = $4131. MVC $731 less. Cost to purchase pts on secondary market $28,050 ($5.50 x 5100). Recoup purchase $28,050 at $731/yr. 38 years.

Look folks I am not trying to be a bad guy here. I am just stating the facts. The point system is too expensive the way it is administered today for high demand properties. Sure you can get better deals if you book within 60 days. But look at the list of available locations. They are not the ones the sales staff sells you on. Many TUG folks are sophisticated users and can get better deals. But it can be hard and time consuming.

 

[goodbadugly]

Perhaps part of the reason for lack of availability is those weeks sitting on Redweek for rent?

Absolutely.

 

[Dean]

Kauai. Redweek asking $3900 for 7 days, Oceanview Week of 12/19-12/26. MVC 5100 pts. @ .81= $4131. MVC $231 more
Maui. Redweek asking $4850 for 7 days, Ocean Front. Week of 12/19-12/26. MVC 5100 pts @ .81 = $4131. MVC $731 less. Cost to purchase pts on secondary market $28,050 ($5.50 x 5100). Recoup purchase $28,050 at $731/yr. 38 years.

Look folks I am not trying to be a bad guy here. I am just stating the facts. The point system is too expensive the way it is administered today for high demand properties. Sure you can get better deals if you book within 60 days. But look at the list of available locations. They are not the ones the sales staff sells you on. Many TUG folks are sophisticated users and can get better deals. But it can be hard and time consuming.

It's all good. I don't think there's any significant disagreement here. I think we all agree that buying points retail and the yearly fees currently on points make them difficult to swallow. I think everyone agrees that the points for cash type exchanges are a poor choice at best. The difference for some is whether the system is failed in general or whether there are situations where certain options make sense. I fall in the latter with each case being different. But as I pointed out earlier, there is more to it than just the financial component esp looking at having the points to use vs renting. IMO the renting has a risk and limitations as well as potential benefits.

 

[Pamplemousse]

Kauai. Redweek asking $3900 for 7 days, Oceanview Week of 12/19-12/26. MVC 5100 pts. @ .81= $4131. MVC $231 more
Maui. Redweek asking $4850 for 7 days, Ocean Front. Week of 12/19-12/26. MVC 5100 pts @ .81 = $4131. MVC $731 less. Cost to purchase pts on secondary market $28,050 ($5.50 x 5100). Recoup purchase $28,050 at $731/yr. 38 years.

Look folks I am not trying to be a bad guy here. I am just stating the facts. The point system is too expensive the way it is administered today for high demand properties. Sure you can get better deals if you book within 60 days. But look at the list of available locations. They are not the ones the sales staff sells you on. Many TUG folks are sophisticated users and can get better deals. But it can be hard and time consuming.

For every example you post like that I can post a counter example that works the other way.
There is no doubt it varies, every situation is different.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that point.

If I didn’t own MVC would I buy points now @$7 a point and $.81/ point/ year maintenance?
I’m not sure- and I can see why you won’t.

Dean brings up a good point about risks in renting from individuals on redweek, etc. Often these rentals are final sale or penalty for cancelling and booking with my points allow all kinds of flexibility for change, cancel, select nights, views. With few exceptions if you book at inventory release you can get what you want.
Also agree that for some of us it is not all financial.
But again, I am talking about owning, not buying.

 

[jp10558]

I don't know much about MVC but I can say that every time I'm looking on Redweek there either is no offer for a place and date I'm comparing or the rental prices asked are way higher than I'd ever pay and often 2x or more the alternate ways I might book. The only places I've seen price competitive (to me anyway) rental prices are the last minute forum here on TUG or eBay, and I'm a little concerned about eBay rentals being cancelled by the system they're in (usually Wyndham).

TLDR; rental is made out to be cheap and easy competition but I've NEVER seen it that way in my tests.

EDIT: I'll also say that when I first looked at MVC and resale + point enrollment I took a pass on the high resale price vs other options. I think outside of just looking at an MVC bubble - only some resale weeks used in II if you want to exchange - potentially as a lockoff - are competitive to those other systems price wise. Now of course if you have to have MVC locations or resorts you pay what you have to.

 

[rthib]

Kauai. Redweek asking $3900 for 7 days, Oceanview Week of 12/19-12/26. MVC 5100 pts. @ .81= $4131. MVC $231 more
Maui. Redweek asking $4850 for 7 days, Ocean Front. Week of 12/19-12/26. MVC 5100 pts @ .81 = $4131. MVC $731 less. Cost to purchase pts on secondary market $28,050 ($5.50 x 5100). Recoup purchase $28,050 at $731/yr. 38 years.

Look folks I am not trying to be a bad guy here. I am just stating the facts. The point system is too expensive the way it is administered today for high demand properties. Sure you can get better deals if you book within 60 days. But look at the list of available locations. They are not the ones the sales staff sells you on. Many TUG folks are sophisticated users and can get better deals. But it can be hard and time consuming.

You are missing the point. You are comparing 7 nights to 7 nights
For Kauai I don’t need 19-26, I only needed 5 nights.
Maui I needed 5 nights not the 7 nights you quoted,
Big Island I only needed 4 nights You didn’t show that one but same issue
With weeks you have to trade 3 weeks to get that. You are wasting nights and money.
That is one of the sweet spots with points, less than 7 nights.

Didn’t even include value of the destination escapes or the discounts you can get on short notice reservation.

And the redweek rental vs owning is a different conversation that applies to weeks and points,

 

[goodbadugly]

You are missing the point. You are comparing 7 nights to 7 nights
For Kauai I don’t need 19-26, I only needed 5 nights.
Maui I needed 5 nights not the 7 nights you quoted,
Big Island I only needed 4 nights You didn’t show that one but same issue
With weeks you have to trade 3 weeks to get that. You are wasting nights and money.
That is one of the sweet spots with points, less than 7 nights.

Didn’t even include value of the destination escapes or the discounts you can get on short notice reservation.

And the redweek rental vs owning is a different conversation that applies to weeks and points,

I didn't miss your point at all! You were basically getting 7 nights for the price of 5. In fact very often Redweek will have rentals for less than 7 days. BTW wouldn't it be nice to have the flexibility to leave or arrive at your villa earlier instead of the 10:00 am out and the 4:00++PM in???

 

[goodbadugly]

I don't know much about MVC but I can say that every time I'm looking on Redweek there either is no offer for a place and date I'm comparing or the rental prices asked are way higher than I'd ever pay and often 2x or more the alternate ways I might book. The only places I've seen price competitive (to me anyway) rental prices are the last minute forum here on TUG or eBay, and I'm a little concerned about eBay rentals being cancelled by the system they're in (usually Wyndham).

TLDR; rental is made out to be cheap and easy competition but I've NEVER seen it that way in my tests.

EDIT: I'll also say that when I first looked at MVC and resale + point enrollment I took a pass on the high resale price vs other options. I think outside of just looking at an MVC bubble - only some resale weeks used in II if you want to exchange - potentially as a lockoff - are competitive to those other systems price wise. Now of course if you have to have MVC locations or resorts you pay what you have to.

You're first paragraph has not been my experience. In addition I rent a HHI week out every year and seems to work well for a lot people!

 

[jp10558]

You're first paragraph has not been my experience. In addition I rent a HHI week out every year and seems to work well for a lot people!

Sorry, I implied it but didn't say - I'm talking HGVC, Wyndham, Capital, and random RCI resorts. Marriott / MVC might well be different, especially in HHI.

 

[Red elephant]

Redweek is filled with MVC rentals for many of the resorts that have no availability for points or weeks reservations. It’s actually better to rent from there than buying the points to book those resorts.

 

[sponger76]

Redweek is filled with MVC rentals for many of the resorts that have no availability for points or weeks reservations. It’s actually better to rent from there than buying the points to book those resorts.

How do you think those Redweek listings get there? Someone made those reservations using weeks or points, typically paying less on MFs than what they're asking for those in-demand stays.

So if someone else wants to book those stays to actually use themselves via weeks/points, it is possible as long as they do the work to reserve as soon as it's available. And they'd pay less than what Redweek would cost them. Yes, weeks would be cheaper than points, but points can be cheaper than Redweek, at least on a MF basis. Purchase price is something else entirely.

 

[jwalk03]

Redweek is filled with MVC rentals for many of the resorts that have no availability for points or weeks reservations. It’s actually better to rent from there than buying the points to book those resorts.

Redweek is certainly not cheaper for the vast majority of in demand reservations. Especially with all the additional fees they are forcing on people now since they have eliminated DIY rentals.

 

[rcdcowner557]

How do you think those Redweek listings get there? Someone made those reservations using weeks or points, typically paying less on MFs than what they're asking for those in-demand stays.

So if someone else wants to book those stays to actually use themselves via weeks/points, it is possible as long as they do the work to reserve as soon as it's available. And they'd pay less than what Redweek would cost them. Yes, weeks would be cheaper than points, but points can be cheaper than Redweek, at least on a MF basis. Purchase price is something else entirely.

We actually went through this exercise with sales at Mountainside recently when they pressured us into a sales presentation while we were there on a red week rental.

The sales reps (there were two in the room, one at a high management level) were lovely and told us they had learned a lot when we methodically walked them through how we would be better served by renting on Redweek or VRBO for our travel needs in the foreseeable future as opposed to adding points to our existing legacy fractional ownership.

Some longtime owners may well be able to rent their weeks or points for more than their MF, but that will not be the case for anyone thinking about purchasing points going forward as a brand new participant or anyone whose property has already tipped into MF that are more than they can recoup on the rental market.