What's wrong with Timeshares and can the industry survive these issues?

[rickandcindy23]

I can’t believe it now, but when I was 12 and up, I would borrow my aunts train pass and take the train into downtown Chicago all alone and go to the library, the stores, and the museums on a Saturday.

My friend and I went on a bus to Downtown Denver from North Denver in 1967, we were 12, to see a movie, turned out it was an "R rated" movie. We just shopped in the stores, bought a few little things for ourselves, had pizza at Woolworth's, then took the bus back home. I miss Darcy. She was fun. I think she is gone from us. I haven't seen her in years.

 

[Pair-A-Dice]

Timesharing is DEAD. Points killed it.

I think the opposite. Points made the timeshare industry more flexible. You no longer have a fixed week somewhere you do not want. You can stay for a couple of nights instead of a whole week, etc. Thus it has saved the industry.

 

[austdav]

All of the timeshares I own are independently owned except one and that one will be up for sale in 2025. Each of these are run well and I agree they BOD can make mistakes, but sometimes in that snapshot in time you have to make the decision that is best available and then after you can see that another option is better...

In the process of selling my hgvc now. Which leaves me 3 weeks at an independent resort. Never going back to a company run point system. Can't figure out why someone wants to pay 2k for a week instead of less than half that or less. Not that I haven't had them in the past.

 

[austdav]

I think the opposite. Points made the timeshare industry more flexible. You no longer have a fixed week somewhere you do not want. You can stay for a couple of nights instead of a whole week, etc. Thus it has saved the industry.

Sorry, have to agree that it has killed the industry! For reasons mentioned in previous post. While I agree it made the timeshare industry more flexible it also made it more expensive. With the added fees, which vary with each point system. And if you do want to stay a whole week, especially busy or holiday weeks it cost a lot more than owning a week at some independent resort.

 

[jp10558]

In the process of selling my hgvc now. Which leaves me 3 weeks at an independent resort. Never going back to a company run point system. Can't figure out why someone wants to pay 2k for a week instead of less than half that or less. Not that I haven't had them in the past.

Well, I presume the room quality / service / locations / resort amenities etc matter. Plus like you mentioned, plenty of people apparently want to stay for less than a week, or in my case may want to stay Wed to Wed sometimes. The other part about HGVC is the points you get depend on season, so if you've got a platinum week you can potentially use that for 2 off season weeks, or a week and a half gold season. You also get the RCI membership which is an additional charge with most independent resorts. RCI trades also don't eat a whole week of points in most (all?) cases.

I don't know of a totally independent resort, but the one I have not in a "major" system is run by Capital I think, and to "use it" with close to the flexibility of HGVC, I have to pay for II membership at ~$100 a year, plus $230 exchange fee that year, plus $1k maintenance. Yea, it's not $2,000, but it's not as cheap as just low MFs. Plus I'm dealing with hoping II has a match, and either way I'm limited to a Fri/Sat/Sun checkin.

Again, if you're 100% sure you want to go back to the same place at the same exact week every year then the older timeshare model pre points can make a lot of sense - but it also seems clear that's a shrinking market segment.

 

[dandjane1]

Been a Wyndham owner since 1999, and only points, some Trust and some UDI. Wyndham points have (at least since 1999) always been Seasonally-sensitive, Event -sensitive, and variable by location. In our DRI and Hilton experience, the Seasonality and Event sensitivities are less pronounced, but still noticeable.

 

[jeffox]

Points made the timeshare industry more flexible.

With points, why the need to tie them to a deed, making transfer more complicated? Why can't there just be points without a deed? Like a membership, with just annual fees based on how many points you buy, but no home resort, no deed, nothing to sell or try to give away for free when you're done. It seems to me that people are happy with their timeshare points that they acquire for nothing and don't mind the annual fees, until they are done and then find it a pain to get rid of.

P.S. I know the reason for the deeds, it's to get people "stuck" into paying annual fees. If it was so easy for people to walk away, they would.

 

[geist1223]

With points, why the need to tie them to a deed, making transfer more complicated? Why can't there just be points without a deed? Like a membership, with just annual fees based on how many points you buy, but no home resort, no deed, nothing to sell or try to give away for free when you're done. It seems to me that people are happy with their timeshare points that they acquire for nothing and don't mind the annual fees, until they are done and then find it a pain to get rid of.

P.S. I know the reason for the deeds, it's to get people "stuck" into paying annual fees. If it was so easy for people to walk away, they would.

Sounds like Worldmark.

 

[jp10558]

With points, why the need to tie them to a deed, making transfer more complicated? Why can't there just be points without a deed? Like a membership, with just annual fees based on how many points you buy, but no home resort, no deed, nothing to sell or try to give away for free when you're done. It seems to me that people are happy with their timeshare points that they acquire for nothing and don't mind the annual fees, until they are done and then find it a pain to get rid of.

P.S. I know the reason for the deeds, it's to get people "stuck" into paying annual fees. If it was so easy for people to walk away, they would.

I think that's very much how CWA, Worldmark and maybe DRI trusts work (and perhaps BlueGreen and Embarc, I'm not really sure). CWA can transfer a lot faster IIRC cause there's no deed transfer. The downsides are from what I see, the pure points seem to cost more because there's no opportunity to get "good points to MF" deeds. Also, while in many many situations it doesn't matter, you do lose any ability to "buy where and when you want to go" for event weeks or holidays or just to ensure specific availability in situations where general availability tends to be very contended. Home Week or Advanced Reservation Priority have some value for some people for specific locations and weeks.

The other thing hiding in pure points with no deed is that while MFs go up, the amount of points you have for booking a given week is fixed. If it's just points - we see even in HHonors but pretty much in all "non backed" points systems that the points costs go up too.

I also think we see something like that in RTU in Mexico maybe? You would lose the resale market I would guess if there's no deed of any type, but it's also clear almost no one buys with any resale in mind.

 

[LannyPC]

You would lose the resale market I would guess if there's no deed of any type, but it's also clear almost no one buys with any resale in mind.

But isn't that one of the selling points the sales people give buyers? "Why rent when you can own?" "If you buy at our 'special' rate today, you can easily turn around and sell it down the road for a lot more than what we're selling it for you today for."

 

[theOneTrueTug]

Here are four things that I believe are wrong with timeshares that if fixed could change things. There are other issues but if any one of these could be fixed, the industry might enjoy new life.

• Purchase price – Over and above a great return on investment for developers, buyers pay commissions for high pressure salespeople that are not exactly cheap. This is compounded by the unrealistic expectations of new owners.
• Maintenance Fees – In all fairness, MF is a function of use, so seasons are not considered when making the assessment, however when an owner is unable to use their week the seasonal difference becomes evident in terms of ease of exchange or rental.
• Divestment – When change of circumstance or need, occurs and the TS owner must sell, they are left to absorb an unfair portion of development cost. This dynamic is the main reason that TS’s now have a poor reputation.
• Resales – Overdevelopment in the most popular TS markets is a problem. These weeks now turn up everywhere and sometimes drive prices below MF. Of all the issues with timeshares, this one is probably the most difficult to fix.

I posted an idea a week ago that I thought would be helpful, I realized from the responses that we have some really knowledgeable owners. So why not think bigger, if we can come up with a fix to the issues there would be a blueprint to build TS that work equally for the developer and owner.

My cousin bought a timeshare at Wyndham (I think... could have been Westgate) and is now regretting the buy. She and her husband did it when at a vacation in Las Vegas and while I have no idea what they bought, I know they're trying to get out of it.

But, they are very much the "YOLO" type and love social media and posting how amazing their vacations are. When I read this post, I thought of them. There's NOTHING resorts need to do - these days, post pandemic people will raid their retirement savings to just go on vacation. Only nerds read the fine print ("ain't nobody got time for that", as the kids say these days) so most people have no idea what they signed up for.

It's terrifying, quite frankly. The people who can least afford it, buy these things with glee.

 

[jp10558]

But isn't that one of the selling points the sales people give buyers? "Why rent when you can own?" "If you buy at our 'special' rate today, you can easily turn around and sell it down the road for a lot more than what we're selling it for you today for."

What I mean is those people believe the sales lies - they're not really figuring out if there's a resale or not. I.e. these sales people can sell just about anything to enough people to make a LOT of money. Most of it lies already.

 

[jp10558]

My cousin bought a timeshare at Wyndham (I think... could have been Westgate) and is now regretting the buy. She and her husband did it when at a vacation in Las Vegas and while I have no idea what they bought, I know they're trying to get out of it.

But, they are very much the "YOLO" type and love social media and posting how amazing their vacations are.

Hmmm, as lots of TUGers say - they ought to learn what they bought (or have you do it for them?) because you can get some pretty amazing trips out of them.

 

[boyblue]

In the process of selling my hgvc now. Which leaves me 3 weeks at an independent resort. Never going back to a company run point system. Can't figure out why someone wants to pay 2k for a week instead of less than half that or less. Not that I haven't had them in the past.

I knew better but still bouht developer controlled and although it hasn't gotten out of hand yet VVP is no longer ideal. I'm not looking but if I came across an independent with a history of low MF, I'd happily pay $3,000. How much do Worldmark, DVC and Marriott go for resale?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

awe, come on, you've been around long enough to know that it's not typical for T/S to be in major cities, though I've seen a lot of requests for Chicago over the years.

ORD is a different hotel market than downtown Chicago, though both are popular in their own ways. I've had business overnights at both, along with seminars near ORD, and put up by the airline, too.

Downtown Chicago is a popular with both families and couples. Theatre, fine dining, museums, baseball, loads to do! It's more accessible and walkable than NYC. A very popular Midwest destination. So, yes! very much a tourist destination. I've run into foreign travelers there to see Frank Lloyd Wright's home, and families from my neighborhood on school breaks - same as Orlando. Yeah, you might think fall break would be a good time to run up there and then you realize everyone else decided to do that, too.

HGVC has a TS property in Chicago. Can trade into it via mini system. Possibly RCI but not sure

 

[geist1223]

Worldmark resell is about 10 cents per Credit.

 

[austdav]

I knew better but still bouht developer controlled and although it hasn't gotten out of hand yet VVP is no longer ideal. I'm not looking but if I came across an independent with a history of low MF, I'd happily pay $3,000. How much do Worldmark, DVC and Marriott go for resale?

I own Magic Tree in Orlando. Mf's are $625 which is what I was told they were about 20 yrs ago. They actually lowered mf's to $600 during COVID and are now going back to $625 in 2025. Bought my first one in 2019 and now own 3. They will give you a 1bd for free. 2bd usually between 1k and 2k. if they have one. I have a total of 3500 for my 3 weeks which are 2bds They also do a quick deed when you buy which cost around $100. and your done so buy right from the resort. They are floating weeks but I never have a problem getting the week I want but I book early. I have booked Christmas & new years since we bought without any problems. This year staying spring break also. It is a gold crown resort and trades well. I just got here from key west which I traded a week for. $600 + $250 trading fee. I know Orlando is overbought but it trades well.

 

[dioxide45]

I own Magic Tree in Orlando. Mf's are $625 which is what I was told they were about 20 yrs ago. They actually lowered mf's to $600 during COVID and are now going back to $625 in 2025. Bought my first one in 2019 and now own 3. They will give you a 1bd for free. 2bd usually between 1k and 2k. if they have one. I have a total of 3500 for my 3 weeks which are 2bds They also do a quick deed when you buy which cost around $100. and your done so buy right from the resort. They are floating weeks but I never have a problem getting the week I want but I book early. I have booked Christmas & new years since we bought without any problems. This year staying spring break also. It is a gold crown resort and trades well. I just got here from key west which I traded a week for. $600 + $250 trading fee. I know Orlando is overbought but it trades well.

Do you trade Magic Tree through II or RCI?

 

[austdav]

You can be in whatever trading company you want. I use both RCI and ii. You could also use sfx trading places or 7 across. They don't care. If you are trading they will assign you a week, you cannot reserve week 52 and then trade it. It still trades good though. If it don't work for you I think they take it back for 2yrs mf's. max. It use to be free but they said that gives them time to resell it. By the way 1bd mf's are $550 the $625 was for 2bd's.

 

[jp10558]

I own Magic Tree in Orlando. Mf's are $625 which is what I was told they were about 20 yrs ago. They actually lowered mf's to $600 during COVID and are now going back to $625 in 2025. Bought my first one in 2019 and now own 3. They will give you a 1bd for free. 2bd usually between 1k and 2k. if they have one. I have a total of 3500 for my 3 weeks which are 2bds They also do a quick deed when you buy which cost around $100. and your done so buy right from the resort. They are floating weeks but I never have a problem getting the week I want but I book early. I have booked Christmas & new years since we bought without any problems. This year staying spring break also. It is a gold crown resort and trades well. I just got here from key west which I traded a week for. $600 + $250 trading fee. I know Orlando is overbought but it trades well.

I want to see the MF increase for the FL reserve law. When you traded for Key West - where did you get, and was it also a 2BR?

 

[austdav]

I want to see the MF increase for the FL reserve law. When you traded for Key West - where did you get, and was it also a 2BR?

Magic Tree is a two story hotel conversion nicely done, so not sure all that applies to them. We stayed at the coconut Malory I think it was called. We stayed in a two bedroom. We put in a request with Ii and had this 1wk later. Didn't really ask for a specific resort but because this was the exact week I requested figured I better take it. Also with Magic tree you can pay mf's 6mo. ahead of the new year which can increase trading power.

 

[pedro47]

Here's how to fix this fast: People need to stop falling for the lure of "free" stuff.

Those "free gifts" cost money. The OPC who offers random couples the free gift gets paid for putting a couple onto the passenger van to the presentation, whether or not they buy anything. OPCs typically make more than salespeople. That is where the mark-up comes from.

Roughly once a month in Key West, we'd get someone who looked at her hotel bill for the week, marched to the sales office, and asked for the abbreviated elevator pitch. (It was almost always "her." Never "him." He was too busy getting loaded at Sloppy Joe's.) Close to 100% of the time, she walked out with a timeshare week. No gifts. No OPC. No song-and-dance. She knew what she was already spending. She saw what it costs. She was capable of doing basic math.

THAT is the market for timeshares. Everyone else has to be lured in with gifts and then sold. When Hapimag started timesharing, all of their customers were like this. Skiers who were already paying more and getting less. So they bought without any OPCs, free gifts, or sales presentations. All that came later when 100 Disney World timeshares sprung up in the space of 10 years.

Those free gifts costs pennies to the developers.

 

[4TimeAway]

My cousin bought a timeshare at Wyndham (I think... could have been Westgate) and is now regretting the buy. She and her husband did it when at a vacation in Las Vegas and while I have no idea what they bought, I know they're trying to get out of it.

But, they are very much the "YOLO" type and love social media and posting how amazing their vacations are. When I read this post, I thought of them. There's NOTHING resorts need to do - these days, post pandemic people will raid their retirement savings to just go on vacation. Only nerds read the fine print ("ain't nobody got time for that", as the kids say these days) so most people have no idea what they signed up for.

It's terrifying, quite frankly. The people who can least afford it, buy these things with glee.

If they miss the rescind period, it become a sunk cost calculation and many TUG members did the same thing.

If they can't rescind, they should learn about what they purchased. That takes time, effort and thought, exactly the opposite of what got them here.

Affording things is a discussion I avoid with everyone. It gets into how and what they spend on which ultimately is why and what are priorities for them. That is not a place I want to go.

Someone told me Keep Is Simple Smiling and that is almost always the best path.

 

[ScoopKona]

Those free gifts costs pennies to the developers.

100% untrue.

The OPC who ropes people in for a timeshare tour are typically the most well-paid people in the entire operation. They don't have to do anything besides lure people in with "free" gifts. They get paid whether the salesperson closes the deal or not. And they get paid even more when a sale is made. And even more if quotas are reached.

THAT is where all the money goes. It it weren't for the OPCs, timeshares wouldn't be any more of a dumb financial purchase than a new car. It'd depreciate about as much once the ink dried. And it would have more resale value because it wasn't egregiously overpriced to begin with.

 

[LannyPC]

they're not really figuring out if there's a resale or not. I.e. these sales people can sell just about anything to enough people to make a LOT of money.

I agree. They "can sell just about anything to enough people to make a LOT of money" by using the underhanded methods that they have been using for years.