What do I need to know when renting from a Wyndham owner

[DeniseM]

Sue - I completely agree that owners should disclose it if they are going to try to cancel and rebook at the 60 days mark, and they might lose the confirmation.

However, if they have a back-up confirmation, so there is no chance of losing the reservation, then I think that's the owner's business, and not the renters.

But again - that is a completely different issue.

Once a price is agreed upon, the owner would be a very foolish business person, to lower the price. That means that they are taking money out of their pocket and handing it over to the renter. Why would anyone do that? To be nice? Renting a timeshare is a business transaction - not charity.

Also - once you start giving discounts, you set a dangerous precedence, because that renter will EXPECT a discount in the future, even when you can't give one. AND they will tell their friends you can give them a discount.

I have had this happen many times - "You rented a timeshare to my friend at the last minute for a great price, so I'd like to rent a high demand week in 6 mos. for that price. You can't do it? But you gave my friend a discount, and that's not fair."

*There is a lot more to renting as a business, than you see on the surface.

 

[DeniseM]

I thought of an example:

I accept almost all payments through Paypal, and Paypal charges me 2.9% of the total rent.

Recently, someone wanted to wire the money to me, instead of using Paypal, and my bank only charges $15 to accept a wire payment, so I saved $89 in Paypal Transaction fees. Did I give $89 back to the renter? - I certainly did not! I said, "Yippee for me, I made $89 more on this rental."

 

[SueDonJ]

Sue - I completely agree that owners should disclose it if they are going to try to cancel and rebook at the 60 days mark, and they might lose the confirmation.

However, if they have a back-up confirmation, so there is no chance of losing the reservation, then I think that's the owner's business, and not the renters.

But again - that is a completely different issue.

Once a price is agreed upon, the owner would be a very foolish business person, to lower the price. That means that they are taking money out of their pocket and handing it over to the renter. Why would anyone do that? To be nice? Renting a timeshare is a business transaction - not charity.

Also - once you start giving discounts, you set a dangerous precedence, because that renter will EXPECT a discount in the future, even when you can't give one. AND they will tell their friends you can give them a discount.

I have had this happen many times - "You rented a timeshare to my friend at the last minute for a great price, so I'd like to rent a high demand week in 6 mos. for that price. You can't do it? But you gave my friend a discount, and that's not fair."

*There is a lot more to renting as a business, than you see on the surface.

I don't know how many more times or what other ways I can say it. If an Owner is playing the game then his renters should be made aware of it, and if there's a reward for playing the game then the Owners and renters should at least share in it. It's not the renters' fault if the Owner can't sustain his rental business without playing, and if explained correctly then this discount and its inherent risk isn't difficult to understand. Like chapjim said, most people will probably choose to take the risk. That's okay by me, I just want everyone to know if the choice is available and that it's not being made for them without their knowledge.

Anybody that has a business knows that dealing with customers is sometimes difficult. So what if they ask for the moon and the sun and the stars, or discounts because that's what they heard their friends got? If an Owner is consistent, fair, and lays everything on the table then reasonable people will do business with him. The unreasonable people will only cause headaches anyway so you may as well try to weed them out any way you can.

 

[ace2000]

I don't know how many more times or what other ways I can say it. If an Owner is playing the game then his renters should be made aware of it, and if there's a reward for playing the game then the Owners and renters should at least share in it.

Let's agree that there is money to be made here (with the "game" as described) and there is zero risk involved (at least when using the approach Ron disclosed). How do you propose letting the renter know that there is a potential savings involved and sharing the benefits with them? I think Denise has it figured out correctly.

I don't see any issues with doing it the way Ron described. However, there are surely other owners that do it without the safety net and that's where the potential problem lies.

 

[DeniseM]

Sue - A little more info.:

-It is almost impossible to compete in the Wyndham market, if you don't rebook at 60 days. Otherwise, you can't be competitive. So for the Mega-Renters, rebooking is the norm - not the exception.

-Many owners do this by making TWO reservations for the rental, so if the rebook falls through, they already have a back-up for the renter.

-When you get a good price on a Wyndham rental, the owner has ALREADY quoted you the rebooking price.

-So the owner isn't making more money if he rebooks, but he is losing, if he can't rebook.

-You have a right to your opinion, that the owner should share a better price with you if they can get it, but how would you ever enforce that?

 

[am1]

Sue - A little more info.:

-It is almost impossible to compete in the Wyndham market, if you don't rebook at 60 days. Otherwise, you can't be competitive. So for the Mega-Renters, rebooking is the norm - not the exception.

-Many owners do this by making TWO reservations for the rental, so if the rebook falls through, they already have a back-up for the renter.

-When you get a good price on a Wyndham rental, the owner has ALREADY quoted you the rebooking price.

-So the owner isn't making more money if he rebooks, but he is losing, if he can't rebook.

-You have a right to your opinion, that the owner should share a better price with you if they can get it, but how would you ever enforce that?

I agree with this. Wyndham rentals can be very complicated.

 

[SueDonJ]

Sue - A little more info.:

-It is almost impossible to compete in the Wyndham market, if you don't rebook at 60 days. Otherwise, you can't be competitive. So for the Mega-Renters, rebooking is the norm - not the exception.

-Many owners do this by making TWO reservations for the rental, so if the rebook falls through, they already have a back-up for the renter.

-When you get a good price on a Wyndham rental, the owner has ALREADY quoted you the rebooking price.

-So the owner isn't making more money if he rebooks, but he is losing, if he can't rebook.

-You have a right to your opinion, that the owner should share a better price with you if they can get it, but how would you ever enforce that?

I can't figure out how it benefits the Owner if he's booking two intervals in order to protect one in the event that the 60-day cancel-and-rebook results in one being lost. Isn't he effectively tying up two intervals for one renter? (Plus I wonder about the ones that get "lost" - in the Marriott system the reservations lost due to the game result in distressed Points. So not only are the Owners risking confirmed reservations/rentals, if they lose then their Points are devalued. I don't know if Wyndham's are similar?) I've gotta be missing something here ...

I also can't figure out why it was necessary for Wyndham mega-renters to have set the ceiling on rental prices as the 60-day discounted rates. Seems to be a recipe for failure ...

Anything I can "enforce" will be only for myself, of course. So, any Wyndham Owners in this thread who call themselves out as playing the game without letting your renters know about it? I won't be renting from you! Seriously, practically every other day there's something new on TUG that makes me glad I don't rent timeshares either from or to. There are a few Marriott Owners* from whom I'd rent with no misgivings but really, I'm not interested.

(*It's not that I'll only stay at Marriott's; it's that I'm most familiar with TUGgers who frequent the Marriott forum.)

 

[DeniseM]

Wyndham reservations are completely different than Marriott, because Wyndham is a points based system.

If the owner can rebook at a lower points cost, he cancels the extra reservation, and puts the points back in his Acct.

If he loses the reservation when he tries to rebook, he rents the extra reservation to his renter. No harm - no foul. But the owner may not make any money, or take a loss, on the rental.

Prices are set by what the market will bear. Wyndham owners with a lot of points figured out that they can beat out the competition, by rebooking at a lower price, and do more rentals for less points = more rentals and more profitable rentals.

When your average Joe Renter sees that he can rent at a lower price from someone who uses the re-booking method, he doesn't know or care what they are doing behind the scenes, he will always go for the lower price.

I would not hesitate to rent from anyone in this thread, and I believe they would tell me the truth, if I asked what their re-booking policy is.

 

[Sandy VDH]

If a mega renter has that much time and energy and is willing to work for the opportunity for a loss, then more power to them. (yes that was sarcasm).

I am in not in the habit of trying to run anything as a business that the starting position is NOT profitable, and I would have to hope for a cancel and rebook to make any money. If there are mega renters who are doing this, they have NO business sense, or no good business model.

 

[DeniseM]

Sandy - Believe it or not, the Mega-renters are doing very well with this method, and it is profitable. But of course, you have to know what you are doing.

FYI - I don't own Wyndham points, I own weeks, but I do understand how it works.

 

[Vacationfuntips]

This is very simple.

Either the Buyer feels comfortable renting from the Seller or doesn't.

The VIP discount should NOT be a factor at the 60 day mark. A Good Seller would make sure they have a back up plan if they were going to do the discount cancel and re-book trick - example would be 2 extra vacations for the dates requested from the Buyer to attempt this. Otherwise, NO ONE should risk anything! Period.

If the Seller is able to get a discount - it is their business and no one else. A Seller has the right to make some money, after all those VIP accounts are not cheap and the Seller does have yearly maintenance fees involved.

The Seller and Buyer agreed to a price already. That is what matters and the price should not change.

The dates the Buyer is looking for the reservation are a PRIME SEASON/ Holiday. In order to get those dates - a Seller would have to book far in advance 13 months, 10 months or something similar to that. Reservations for those dates are hard to come by and go fast. There is a lot of competition in securing holiday reservations. Otherwise, a Seller has to try to pick up the mistakes & cancellations of others trying to get the VIP discount. Trust me when I say, that there are owners looking for the reservations on a daily basis and they go very fast.

I personally have no sympathy for anyone who loses a reservation this way - especially knowing the risks involved. It is not fair to the Buyer to risk losing their reservation. I don't think anyone wants to ruin someone's holiday vacation.

If the Buyer does not feel comfortable with the Seller or vice versa - it is better to just move on quickly and work with someone who you feel more comfortable with. I would never make a promise that I am not sure of to anyone. It is better to say to the Buyer that "I have secured your reservation with my points and put in your requests - Nothing in life is 100% Guaranteed. Somethings are beyond an owners control, but I did do what we agreed" Try to put everything in writing - terms conditions, resort policies in writing too. Less problems down the road this way for both parties.

Cynthia T.

 

[ace2000]

Since the details of the "cancel and rebook" method is now widely known on TUG, I'd hate to be the next owner that has one of these rentals "fall through the cracks" within that 60 day period and then has to inform the renter of such.

 

[SueDonJ]

Wyndham reservations are completely different than Marriott, because Wyndham is a points based system. ...

The comparison I'm making is to Marriott's Points system, and to those Marriott Members who would be the equivalent of Wyndham mega-renters (i.e. those with access to enough Points to make duplicate reservations.)

If the owner can rebook at a lower points cost, he cancels the extra reservation, and puts the points back in his Acct. ...

In Marriott's system at the cancel-and-rebook mark the returned Points from both the discounted and the extra reservation would be distressed (subject to a 60-day Reservation Window, can't be banked, borrowed or transferred, etc.) Are Wyndham's Points also distressed at that mark?

If it were me as the Owner, I would provide a rebate to the renter for the discounted Points returned to my account because I would have based my rental rate on the number of Points needed for the non-discounted reservation. It would be a pro-rated rebate, though, because of the now-distress nature of the returned Points.

If he loses the reservation when he tries to rebook, he rents the extra reservation to his renter. No harm - no foul. But the owner may not make any money, or take a loss, on the rental. ...

Same, returned Points from lost reservation would be distressed.

So either way the Owner is left with distressed Points and only one rental from two confirmed reservations. If he'd simply rented both at the outset, or reserved and rented only one, wouldn't he be better off?

Prices are set by what the market will bear. Wyndham owners with a lot of points figured out that they can beat out the competition, by rebooking at a lower price, and do more rentals for less points = more rentals and more profitable rentals.

When your average Joe Renter sees that he can rent at a lower price from someone who uses the re-booking method, he doesn't know or care what they are doing behind the scenes, he will always go for the lower price. ...

Are you saying nicely that I'm not your Average Joe? Seriously, I think any renter would care upon learning that an Owner is risking the interval being rented. Some, maybe even most, would accept the risk for the lower price ... but they can't know unless they're told.

I would not hesitate to rent from anyone in this thread, and I believe they would tell me the truth, if I asked what their re-booking policy is.

It's not my intention to insult anyone in this thread and I'm sorry if anyone is getting that impression. Obviously my risk tolerance is lower than what most of you will accept, probably lower than what's reasonable. That reflects on me, not on any of you.

 

[SueDonJ]

Since the details of the "cancel and rebook" method is now widely known on TUG, I'd hate to be the next owner that has one of these rentals "fall through the cracks" within that 60 day period and then has to inform the renter of such.

On the Marriott forum we have a name for it - "The Puck Trick" - because TUGger PuckmanFL was the first to see it in the docs when the Destination Club was introduced. The problem as I see it isn't that the timeshare owners know it exists - it's that the renters may not.

 

[ace2000]

On the Marriott forum we have a name for it - "The Puck Trick" - because TUGger PuckmanFL was the first to see it in the docs when the Destination Club was introduced. The problem as I see it isn't that the timeshare owners know it exists - it's that the renters may not.

Sure, but keep in mind that if done properly (in the manner that Ron described), there is zero risk. Ron has the multiple accounts, so he can pull it off. Other mega-renters or VIPs may not have that luxury and could possibly be snared.

 

[ronparise]

I can't figure out how it benefits the Owner if he's booking two intervals in order to protect one in the event that the 60-day cancel-and-rebook results in one being lost. Isn't he effectively tying up two intervals for one renter? (Plus I wonder about the ones that get "lost" - in the Marriott system the reservations lost due to the game result in distressed Points. So not only are the Owners risking confirmed reservations/rentals, if they lose then their Points are devalued. I don't know if Wyndham's are similar?) I've gotta be missing something here ...

I also can't figure out why it was necessary for Wyndham mega-renters to have set the ceiling on rental prices as the 60-day discounted rates. Seems to be a recipe for failure ...

Anything I can "enforce" will be only for myself, of course. So, any Wyndham Owners in this thread who call themselves out as playing the game without letting your renters know about it? I won't be renting from you! Seriously, practically every other day there's something new on TUG that makes me glad I don't rent timeshares either from or to. There are a few Marriott Owners* from whom I'd rent with no misgivings but really, I'm not interested.

(*It's not that I'll only stay at Marriott's; it's that I'm most familiar with TUGgers who frequent the Marriott forum.)

Sure thats exactly what hes doing but even if he loses in the cancel and rebook game he still has the cancelled points to re rent

And Its not a ceiling that we have set...its the market and the problem is that the my cost is too close to the market to excite me.

To explain Ill talk about what im working on right now, Mardi Gras

a year ago I made 28 weekend reservations most were one bedrooms at 98000 points ( my mf cost plus a guest cert is $600 and I rent these for $350 a night or $1050) The studios cost 72000 points (mf plus guest cert = $500) So about $400 profit either way...If rent them all at my price Ill make just over $11000

The question is does it make sense to play the cancel and rebook game if I risk losing a few? Heres what happened to me this year.. I didnt rent any of these early at 60 days I still had all the reservations to rent. I cancelled and rebooked and upgraded and the end result was I lost 3. I now have 8 studios at 36000 points and 17 one bedrooms at the same 36000 points. My cost is $300 per reservation and I make about $700 on each one

so without the games I make $11000 Playing the game, losing 3 reservations and I make over $17000 plus I get all those cancelled points back to do something else with.

Back to the ops question He asked what he should know when renting from a Wyndham owner...What he should know is that the owner may be playing the cancel and rebook game and putting the reservation at risk doing so...He should also know that the mf cost is close to $6/1000 points and their is a guest cert to pay for. and he should also know what the point cost is for his reservation. (look it up). My advice is that knowing these things, if the rental price seems too good to be true this owner may be counting on cancelling and rebooking and your reservation may be at risk.... Maybe not, What the op decided to do with this info is his business...for me it would be enough to experience that bad bedside manner. I wouldnt need anything else. Id keep looking

 

[am1]

With 100's of rentals I cannot keep track of rebates. As well as whos reservation was discounted and whose was not if they are for the same week. After I get one discounted I will try the second and then try to rent it out.

Yes the points come back as "distressed" that just makes the rental market even harder.

I would rather rent from someone who knew what they were doing and make sure to make a wrong right then someone who just rents a few reservations a year.

It is not easy and I would not encourage others to do it but if one knows what they are doing the can limit the risk and with backups they can eliminate it altogether.

Some people are better off to rent directly from the hotel as that is probably the "lowest" risk of all.

 

[DeniseM]

If it were me as the Owner, I would provide a rebate to the renter for the discounted Points returned to my account because I would have based my rental rate on the number of Points needed for the non-discounted reservation. It would be a pro-rated rebate, though, because of the now-distress nature of the returned Points.

Sue - if you did this, you would find it difficult to get any renters, because your price would be higher than the best market rate.

Why would I rent from you for $1,400 (and MAYBE a rebate of $400.)

When I can rent from Mr. Mega-renter for $1,000 - firm.

Plus - it is so dangerous to tell a renter that they "might" get a rebate - you never, ever offer a renter something that you can't guarantee, because if you say "might" they will expect you to make it happen, and they will be mad, and feel cheated, if you can't produce. It's the nature of the beast...

I don't think you are cut out to be a Mega-Renter.

 

[am1]

I don't think you are cut out to be a Mega-Renter.

And thats not a bad thing. I work 24/7. It is not easy but I would not want any other job.

Trying to find out whats next though before anyone else does.

 

[SueDonJ]

Sue .. I don't think you are cut out to be a Mega-Renter.

Pretty sure we're ALL in complete agreement that I am DEFINITELY not cut out to be anywhere near the timeshare rental market!

 

[DeniseM]

Pretty sure we're ALL in complete agreement that I am DEFINITELY not cut out to be anywhere near the timeshare rental market!

I think it would push you over the edge…. :rofl:

 

[DeniseM]

I bet mpumilia is so sorry she asked!

 

[chapjim]

Sue - A little more info.:

<snip>

-Many owners do this by making TWO reservations for the rental, so if the rebook falls through, they already have a back-up for the renter.

-When you get a good price on a Wyndham rental, the owner has ALREADY quoted you the rebooking price.

-So the owner isn't making more money if he rebooks, but he is losing, if he can't rebook.

-You have a right to your opinion, that the owner should share a better price with you if they can get it, but how would you ever enforce that?

True, if I make two reservations I'll have a back-up but I'll lose money when I rent the undiscounted backup. I've had a couple of occasions where I went out and acquired a week on the market when I lost a reservation. I was able to find someone whose price was pretty close to mine. I lost $50 or $100 -- way better than selling a week for a discounted price that cost me undiscounted points. That could easily be $1,000.

There are lots of owners who have average maintenance fees a bit lower than mine but not half mine. So, anyone -- ANYONE -- who is pricing rentals in the same price range as mine is rebooking. The only exception would be someone who is at the end of his use year and is trying to get something instead of losing points. (I was trying to rent 2BR and 3BR presidential units for $450 last month. Can't believe no one wanted to go to Panama City Beach in December!!)

My listed prices have always been based on my being able to re-book. As someone already mentioned, that's what you have to do to get even a nibble. Because the incidence of losing reservations while re-booking has increased lately, I'm changing my business model and not listing most reservations until I've rebooked. When I do list before re-booking, I tell potential buyers what I'm doing and pencil them in for the reservation and get back to them when I have rebooked (or lost the reservation trying). I don't take money until I've rebooked.

 

[WinniWoman]

Have you looked at booking directly with smuggs? Check their rates for comparison. They may be expensive but you will pick your room type and and it includes perks (such as the Smuggs pass and lift tickets) which you wont get when renting from a wyndham owner.

I believe you will have to pay extra for the smuggs pass if you rent from a private party.

Also as you know the unit type (location on resort) is related to check in date you select.

Not to mention Christmas week is very popular and he might not even be able to book it for you at the 10 month mark...

Well- I did think of that. I have winter benefits as an owner and I also can use the Sycamores facilities since I won there, so I do only need the accommodations. We don't ski anyway and usually only do fee based activities. I called Smuggs and the cost they quoted was so outrageous I can't even keep a straight face when I think of it.:rofl:

 

[WinniWoman]

Are you people saying that the Wyndham owner should be able to give me a Confirmation in my name 10 months out instead of 60 days before check-in? And, what about the confirmation of a unit?

Should I be asking the owner if he intends to cancel and rebook? Also- I am not a Wyndham owner so I do not know anything about looking up point values, etc. (and I am a weeks owner)

I also just got another response to my ad by who seems like a much more amiable person and she quoted the same rate as the other guy right off the bat.

I definitely cannot have a reservation at risk. We are people with jobs who have to put in for our time off in February. We need to have this accommodation for the holidays as it is our only way to be with family. This reservation also involves a second unit for other relatives- so you have two families' holidays at stake here.

Isn't this something to be put in the written rental agreement? The guaranteed unit location and dates?

This is becoming way over my head!