Westin St. John [Master Thread]

[NerdAlert]

We heard about the owner's meeting from the sales department, but some people in attendance said they got emailed about it. We had some questions that our salesperson recommended we ask at the owner's meeting. It was actually great to see some communication from Starwood instead of a Monday social where anybody could stroll in. It was primarily run by Mike Ryan, but John Ireland was also there. The meeting was very informative, pleasant, and had refreshments. John was told of some issues and was right on them and had great info about when future maintenance things were going to be done. Don't misunderstand, these meetings are a great thing!

Professor Schrag was there and introduced himself and handed out contact info and gave a plug to TUG. Go Phil! The only thing that shocked us was the slide that showed the average Replacement Reserve will go from $782 for the average unit to $407 for the average unit from 2012 until 2020. I don't know if that is the same terminology as the "special assessment" or not, that's why I was seeking a second opinion from others. (A local St. John Realtor describes the special assessment as Reserve Replacement fee) If it is a 9-yr continuation of the special assessment, then I think this is a major issue. Between these increasing fees and a bad economy the rental possibilities for our WSJ villas are severely strained.

I just wanted to make other WSJ owners aware of something that needed clarification. If these types of things turn into a cyclone and people get nasty, then we're outta TUG.

It was great meeting David and Robin at last. Hopefully you guys get home safely. We actually got you guys some Spirit Airlines Snuggies for Christmas, but maybe we'll have to return them now!

 

[DavidnRobin]

Westin St John - Dock Permit Renewed

http://virginislandsdailynews.com/news/westin-dock-permit-renewed-1.854697

Westin Dock Permit Renewed
By ALDETH LEWIN, reporter, Daily News Staff
Published: June 19, 2010

ST. JOHN — A major Coastal Zone Management permit renewal for a dock at the Westin Resort on St. John was approved by the Senate Environmental Protection Committee on Friday.

The renewal of the 20-year CZM permit is for the existing 180-foot dock in Great Cruz Bay.

Part of the permit renewal includes allowing the Westin to dredge 650 cubic yards of sand from around the dock to bring the water depth in the area to 8 feet. The material will be spread out and dried on the property and then used by the resort. 

Sen. Adlah Donastorg Jr. asked if the sand material was tested. Acting CZM Division Assistant Director Jean Pierre Oriel said that it was not. He said the Department of Planning and Natural Resources’ Division of Environmental Protection uses its discretion in requiring dredge-material testing.

Oriel said because the area in question has never been used in an industrial way, such as for a marina, the testing was not needed.

“There is nothing that says this is a mandatory thing that has to happen,” he said about testing.

Oriel said the dredging will take about two weeks, weather permitting.

The permit also allows for five water toys — a floating trampoline and other inflatables — for the resort’s use. The Westin has also offered to fund five buoys to be placed in the bay at DPNR’s discretion.

The former annual fee for the dock permit was $7,400 and the new proposed annual fee will be $28,000.

During questioning by Donastorg, it was revealed that a mandatory reclamation fee of $1 per cubic yard that is required of all dredging projects was not assessed to the Westin project.

Oriel said it was an oversight and would be corrected in the final fee negotiations. Westin General Manager Mike Ryan said he had no problem paying the fee.

The four committee members who approved the application were Donastorg, Sen. Shawn-Michael Malone, Sen. Sammuel Sanes and Sen. Patrick Simeon Sprauve. Sen. Alvin Williams Jr., Sen. Carlton Dowe and Sen. Michael Thurland were absent.

The St. John CZM Committee previously approved the permit application in 2006, and it has been signed by the governor. Senate ratification of the permit is the final step to approval. All 15 senators must vote on the application in full session. 

 

[DavidnRobin]

WSJ-VG Update

bump...

I was able to meet with new WSJ-VG BOD member (and Tugger) Phil Schrag during our stay at WSJ last week. It was good to see Phil again (he and I own the same week) as a knew him from our previous visits.

Please make sure you send your info [name, email, villa(s), and week(s)] to Phil even if you have already sent your info to Gene (Tugger: GeneNWendy) since Phil and Bob's contact info list may not be teh same as put together by GeneNWendy.

again - the new BOD members are:

Phil Schrag - phil.schrag@gmail.com
Bob Werbel - robert.werbel@yahoo.com

please make sure you send them your info (and tell other Owners that you know) - it is important that WSJ-VG Owners continue to form a coalition. IMO - the 1st step needs improve Owner-to-Owner Communications that will hopefuly translate to improved transparency between the HOA and SVO/WSJ.

It was interesting that SVO/WSJ allowed Phil and Bob to use their email distribution list (great 1st step), but would not supply them the info (privacy issues). This was reflected in the above post by Beaglemom. The problem is (as I have 1st hand knowledge) is that the SVO/WSJ database is quite poor - therefore, not all Owners may have received this notification.

Even if you are totally satisfied with your WSJ-VG Ownership and SVO/WSJ - it is still important to send Phil your contact info in order to stay informed and voice your opinion (if you care to).

IMO-IMO-IMO - I think Phil and Bob will have to walk a fine line between Owners and the SVO-controlled BOD (SVO has 3 of 5 associates on the BOD) while issues get worked out - and therefore patience is of importance. What has transpired over many years will take time to make paradigm shift in the relationship between SVO/WSJ and Owners via the HOA BOD. I do not suspect that Phil will direct post to TUG (but I know he reads TUG), but I will keep Tuggers informed as I can (as I have always tried to do) with issues pertainent to STJ and WSJ as I become aware of them.

Also - as always - feel free to post here - or PM me if you want to stay private - about questions/issues/concerns/observations that you have about happens at WSJ or STJ. I will be happy to address them.

see my recent trip report here: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123157
{weaker than teh past ones - but some cool videos}

In the meantime - enjoy your WSJ Ownership - it is a great resort on a beautiful island - I wish I could spend more time there...

 

[DavidnRobin]

NOAA (water and air temp data) for STJ

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/da...al Observations&format=View+Plot&plot_backup=

This is pretty cool - shows the water and air temp for STJ (at Lameshur Bay - SE part of island). The water temp is around 85F - nice...

Article on VIERS project at Lameshur - where I got the above link - there will be a waterwater cam when it is up an running

http://barnako.typepad.com/news_of_...install-underwater-webcam-on-south-shore.html

 

[GeneNWendy]

Suggestion for those not afraid to drive in St John

I just got back from a week at the Westin with my wife and another couple. Since the Westin ferry currently runs $110.00 round trip per person with no owner discount, I wanted to check a few options. First, I called a few car rental places on St. John (at least we would save money on cab fare to town and the beaches). I must have waited too close to my trip to book, because there was no availability at anyplace that I called. Furthermore, if there was availability, it would have run $70 to $100 a day. Finally, I decided to contact some rental places at the airport. I found out that Avis and Budget were the only agencies that allowed you to take your car over to St John. In any case, I was quoted a price of $430 for the entire week. This was for a Toyota Camry. For a little more I could have gotten an SUV. The experience was great. It took about 40 minutes to drive to the car ferry barge in Red Hook (they basically run every half hour between 8:00am and 8:00pm) and cost $45.00 r/t (no additional cost for passengers). Once we got off in St. John, we were right around the corner from the Starfish market and about a 5 minute drive from the Westin. So for less than the cost of the Westin ferry for 4 adults, we had a rental car for the entire week. I don't think I'll ever go back to using the Westin ferry unless I ever have some reason to go down alone.

 

[LisaRex]

FYI, what are the MFs for a 2 and 3 bdrm unit at WSJ? I'm trying to compare apples to apples vs. the cost of ownership at WKORV. We love, love Hawaii but the time change and travel time is much easier on us in the Caribbean.

I'm assuming new owners won't owe the past due property taxes...?

 

[jarta]

LisaRex, ... "I'm assuming new owners won't owe the past due property taxes...?"

Your assumption is wrong. Past due taxes are a lien on the property, the liability transfers with the property and must be paid by the new owner. ... eom

 

[gregb]

FYI, what are the MFs for a 2 and 3 bdrm unit at WSJ? I'm trying to compare apples to apples vs. the cost of ownership at WKORV. We love, love Hawaii but the time change and travel time is much easier on us in the Caribbean.

I'm assuming new owners won't owe the past due property taxes...?

If you buy, you should negotiate how to pay the past due taxes. Of course, you probably want to get that money up front by negotiating a lower price. After the sale closes, you have little leverage to get the previous owner to pay the past due taxes. As Jarta says, it is a lien on the property, so once the property is recorded in your name, you are on the hook for it.

Greg

 

[DavidnRobin]

FYI, what are the MFs for a 2 and 3 bdrm unit at WSJ? I'm trying to compare apples to apples vs. the cost of ownership at WKORV. We love, love Hawaii but the time change and travel time is much easier on us in the Caribbean.

I'm assuming new owners won't owe the past due property taxes...?

Are you looking at Hillside or Bay View MFs? There is a difference in both villa type and MFs.

As to Prop Tax - they will be due back to 2006 when due. The 2006 taxes are going to be billed soon w/ 2007 later this year. As to a lien... This is the USVI so things move at a different pace.

The Prop Tax for 2006 will be at the 1998 rate

 

[DavidnRobin]

Gene is correct - if you rent for STJ - do it on STT and take car barge - easy. I wrote about this in my trip report. There are more agencies off the airport, but will pick you up at STT. The biggest issue is getting the vehicle you want - we paid $740 for 14 days (Jeep 2dr - we used the 4WD but go places where it is needed eg Lameshur Bay)

 

[LisaRex]

The property tax issue is very troubling and I'll pass on doing anything until that matter gets resolved. I don't want to be left holding the bag for 4 years of property taxes on a property I didn't even own.

 

[jarta]

LisaRex, ... Taxes on St. John are not like Maui. 4 years of taxes would probably run less than $1,200 (David would know better) for a 2-br TH. Is $1,200 a deal killer for you? But, of course, it's your money and your decision.

And, over time, you would have no control over tax increases.

The bigger issue at St. John (Hillside) is that Starwood subsidized the timeshares to the tune of $2.87M during 2007 ($1.978M) and 2008 ($892K). That obviously cannot continue. ... eom

 

[DavidnRobin]

The property tax issue is very troubling and I'll pass on doing anything until that matter gets resolved. I don't want to be left holding the bag for 4 years of property taxes on a property I didn't even own.

I had the Sellers compensate me for the past property taxes - waiting for the USVI Gov't to work out the Property Taxes could take years - considering they are behind 4 years as it is.

Added - the taxes will approximately double.

The Starwood subsidy has ended from what I heard.

 

[jarta]

David, ... "The Starwood subsidy has ended from what I heard."

So, is that a good or bad thing? In other words, without the Starwood subsidy, how will the budget be balanced? ... eom

 

[NerdAlert]

That's an easy one Jarta, just tap the "bottomless wallets" of us owners for the difference. And, oh yeah, through in the costs of all the deadbeats, but don't let the owners have any benefits in return...like rental income, usage priorities, or chances at ownership of those weeks.

 

[jarta]

nerdAlert, ... "That's an easy one Jarta, just tap the "bottomless wallets" of us owners for the difference. And, oh yeah, through in the costs of all the deadbeats, but don't let the owners have any benefits in return...like rental income, usage priorities, or chances at ownership of those weeks."

I think you being a little "flip." If there is a reason for a developer subsidy of $2.9M in 2 years to balance the books at WSJ, there is something quite wrong in Paradise. Some more from the calendar 2008 audit (p. 15):

Budgeted MF: $5,716,105 Actual MF: $5,715,889 Difference: $216.

Budgeted Developer Subsidy: $2,194,770 Actual Developer Subsidy: $1,978,206 Difference: $216,564.

Your answer doesn't really address whether the ending of the WSJ developer subsidy a good or a bad thing? Or, how the bills are going to be paid without the subsidy? Or, one I didn't specifically ask: Why in the world is there a subsidy at all?

Maybe I'm missing something. Could you enlighten me? I was seriously considering buying something there, but if the development needed $1-1.5M every year to stay afloat and it's no longer there, why do it? Maybe I'd be better off taking my chance and trading into BV (or maybe Hillside if something turns up) using Staroptions from a lower MF resort.

I thought I asked a serious question. I thought I'd get a less frivolous answer. ... eom

 

[Ken555]

The entire developer subsidy concept is flawed, in my view. I've been told its to help new resorts during active sales, but inevitably there appear to be dramatically rising MFs and, on occasion, special assessments at those resorts once the subsidy slows or ends altogether. Speaking generically, developer subsidy is not a good thing, as it appears to artificially change the budget of a resort.

Am I wrong?

 

[Captron]

Ken, I believe you are right on. It is flawed from an owners perspective, not from a developers perspective when trying to make sales.

I thought subsidies were a common thing during build out and active sales to keep MF down and not scare away potential purchasers. That is just one more thing NOT disclosed during sales presentations. Once the resort is mostly or completely sold the subsidy phases out/disappears and the owners are indeed left holding the bag (as empty as it may be) and often end up with large increases in MF as a result.

It is also a way to (artificially) maintain the <5% annual increases in MF they often mention during sales presentations.

 

[DavidnRobin]

How would removal of the Starwood subsidy benefit owners in any way? (unless it meant that we got voting control of the BOD - which we don't)

There is no benefit for the Owners that I can think of.... I only see it as a way to keep MFs artificially suppressed while active sales were going on, but perhaps there is some unforeseen benefit.

Now - no subsidy for WSJ VG - but still 3 of 5 SVO associates on the BOD... (must be nice...)

Ken - you are not wrong IMO. The problem is that it is not discussed in an open/honest way (again - lack of transparency). The yearly revenues/expenses listings (that goes to the annual MFs) has always has a line item for this subsidy with a small footnote that the Starwood can end at anytime - but was unclear of the impact - now we have an idea.

I recall (from memory) that this was ~$160/week for the 2Bd TH. (I would have to check in my files to see if this is correct).

 

[GeneNWendy]

Timeshares and subsidies

The developer subsidy is one of the biggest "scams" in the entire timeshare industry, not just Starwood. During the selling period, the developer will kick in a certain amount of money to artificially keep maintenance fees lower than what is actually needed to run it. This way they can attract new owners by showing how low the maintenance fees are currently. Go to a sales presentation anywhere and I guarantee they will not disclose to you that the fees are eventually going to go up.

Our problem at Westin Virgin Grand Villas in 2010 was threefold:

1. We are in the midst of this "upgrade" project, which alone has increased our fees by 40%
2. The developer chose this point in time to remove their subsidy, as we are 90% sold and no longer in the "selling" period.
3. We are paying additional MF's for those owners that defaulted under the premise that our timeshare is run like a condominium.

This is why Bay Vista maintenance fees are much less than those at Virgin Grand Villas. The developer is kicking in a subsidy as they are still trying to sell those units. Also, since they are new, there are no upgrades yet. Believe me, any Bay Vista owner that is happy now is in for a rude awakening. Once the developer removes his subsidy and they need upgrades, their fees will be similar to what we are currently paying at Virgin Grand Villas. Additionally, they do not have private pools nor the ability to park a rental vehicle close to their unit. I truly feel sorry for those that purchased there.

At least there is a law on the Virgin Island's books that the owner's should have majority control of their villas once they become 75% owner occupied. Starwood is going to try and fight that indefinitely, but with 2 new owners on the board who happen to be attorneys along with over 1,000 upset owners, I do not know how long Starwood will get away with this. They may have the best legal team around, but no matter how good they are, they can't change the law.

GeneNWendy

 

[jerseygirl]

Gene --

I think many of the Bay Vista buyers are Phase One owners as well (and, as such, probably do understand the implications of the subsidy). Heck, while we have it, it's free money -- I certainly won't turn it down.

I won't presume to speak for other owners of both phases, but we added to our ownership in Bay Vista for one reason and one reason only: Flexibility. I am thrilled that we can go any week in our season by calling a year in advance.

Do I like my pool villa better? Sure. But, I'll give up that parking space for flexibility anyday.

-- Jerseygirl

 

[jarta]

Does anyone know if the developer subsidy was an annual thing for many years or a recent occurrence put into place for funding of the reserve fund? I was told that by the time the repairs were set to be started for the VG section, there was no money in the reserve fund. Thus, Starwood advanced the money to get the repairs underway.

Is this version of facts true? If not, what is the truth? ... eom

 

[Fredm]

In every case I am aware of, developer subsidies are required by law. These subsidies are intended to cover the prorated portion of fees during the sales phase of the project. Units built and registered for sale obliges the developer to pay fees (including taxes) on built but unsold intervals. This is why subsidies end at sell out, or some approximate time.

I do not know how this specifically applies to WSJ. Or, if it applies at all. Just saying, the subsidy is likely tied to built but unsold inventory. Because it is a prorated expense, based on projections from year to year, the subsidy may end before or after the actual sell out of the resort. Developers try to not overbuild in advance of sales for this reason.

 

[Ken555]

In every case I am aware of, developer subsidies are required by law. These subsidies are intended to cover the prorated portion of fees during the sales phase of the project. Units built and registered for sale obliges the developer to pay fees (including taxes) on built but unsold intervals. This is why subsidies end at sell out, or some approximate time.

Thanks, Fred. This makes a lot of sense now. In this instance, it's not really a subsidy but simply the developer MFs for the unsold units. I think the word "subsidy" implies other meaning than simply the developers requirement to pay MFs on their own unsold inventory...

 

[Fredm]

Thanks, Fred. This makes a lot of sense now. In this instance, it's not really a subsidy but simply the developer MFs for the unsold units. I think the word "subsidy" implies other meaning than simply the developers requirement to pay MFs on their own unsold inventory...

Yes, you said it more simply. But, the developer is not actually paying a one-for-one maintenance fee. For example, the taxes are different (lower) on unsold units. They are valued at land improvement cost, not sale price. Likewise, unsold standing inventory is not allocated the same housekeeping costs. They do share common area expense and so forth on a similar rationale.
The principle is the same as you suggest, however.

In theory, once units are sold the subsidy is replaced by the maintenance fees of an owner. But, because the subsidy does not reflect the actual cost to the association, there is usually an increase in m/f's once the subsidy ends.