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Westin St. John [Master Thread]

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DavidnRobin

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For 2Bd Townhouse - increase in base MFs (not special assessments) - w/o SVN fee

2005 $1,052.87
2006 $1,204.13 - 14.4%
2007 $1,322.98 - 9.9%
2008 $1,521.17 - 15.0%
2009 $1,600.65 - 5.2%
2010 $2,000.88 - 25.0%
{SA = ~$865 over 3 years - 2009 to 2011}

I think it was the 2008 MF when there was an inclusion of a doubling of Replacement Reserves.
 
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DavidnRobin

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Vinx

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Lawsuit?

Is there any news of the lawsuit to be filed against Starwood? As month long owners since the 90s we are now being clobbered with the MFs. I was just sent this link and have joined the forum.
 

DavidnRobin

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Lawsuit or No Lawsuit

This whole lawsuit deal has me real concerned. The value of our weeks has plummeted to about zero. Recently on ebay a 1 BR sold for $1600. A 2BR sold through a local realtor for $6,000.

I am in the realestate development world. Trust me I am as upset as most of you are. I feel like the Westin has not looked out for the owners best interests and have fleeced us financially.

This whole lawsuit idea only works if it is carried out. SVO isn't going to change anything until there is a real lawsuit that has merit. Until then they are going to laugh at us all the way to the bank. In the meantime all the threats are doing nothing but hurting our ability to remarket and rent our properties. If no lawsuit is ever filed we have only hurt ourselves and our resorts reputation.

To those who are screaming lawsuit I support you if it your true intent and will follow throught. If however you are just puffing your chest in hopes SVO will get scared you are only hurting yourself and other timeshare owners. Going after SVO is a monumental task and will either take serious bank or an attorney who likes big challenges.

Good luck and when the gun goes off let's just hope we are not shooting ourselves in the foot.
 

DavidnRobin

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This whole lawsuit deal has me real concerned. The value of our weeks has plummeted to about zero. Recently on ebay a 1 BR sold for $1600. A 2BR sold through a local realtor for $6,000.

I am in the realestate development world. Trust me I am as upset as most of you are. I feel like the Westin has not looked out for the owners best interests and have fleeced us financially.

This whole lawsuit idea only works if it is carried out. SVO isn't going to change anything until there is a real lawsuit that has merit. Until then they are going to laugh at us all the way to the bank. In the meantime all the threats are doing nothing but hurting our ability to remarket and rent our properties. If no lawsuit is ever filed we have only hurt ourselves and our resorts reputation.

To those who are screaming lawsuit I support you if it your true intent and will follow throught. If however you are just puffing your chest in hopes SVO will get scared you are only hurting yourself and other timeshare owners. Going after SVO is a monumental task and will either take serious bank or an attorney who likes big challenges.

Good luck and when the gun goes off let's just hope we are not shooting ourselves in the foot.

..... sorry, but I am not following.... you are saying do not persue unless you are successful on getting a postive result - otherwise do not persue.... sort of a conundrum now isn't it? what's your solution?

I have little interest in a lawsuit either, but willing to support if it gets SVO's attention, What we need is HOA transparency - which can only happen with Owners on the HOA that can champion this (just like all other SVO HOA BODs).
 
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J&JFamily

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..... sorry, but I am not following.... you are saying do not persue unless you are successful on getting a postive result - otherwise do not persue.... sort of a conundrum now isn't it? what's your solution?

I have little interest in a lawsuit either, but willing to support if it gets SVO's attention, What we need is HOA transparency - which can only happen with Owners on the HOA that can champion this (just like all other SVO HOA BODs).

I couldn't agree more! Just like our government (promise I won't take sides and talk politics), the HOA boards and timeshare developers need to be transparent. A small percentage of owners posting on TUG about potential lawsuits has VERY LITTLE to do with the falling values of timeshares. If you want to lay blame you need to look at Starwood and the HOAs. If my salary could go up at the rate that my MFs are going up, with no apparent end in sight, I would not worry too much about the increase in MFs.
 

GeneNWendy

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A lawsuit is the last straw

I couldn't agree more that the HOA boards and timeshare developers need to be transparent. Unfortunately, they haven't been this way at the Westin St. John, and from what I understand many other timeshares both inside and outside of Starwood as well.

Several things have a lot to do with the falling value of Timeshares. Currently, I am only speaking from experience at the Westin St. John. In the by-laws, there is an amendment that basically allows the developer to maintain a majority control of the Board until such time as the developer sells their very last unit. That means that the board of directors will be composed of a majority of Starwood employees and not timeshare owners until their last unit is sold. Guess what? That will never happen, because Starwood will personally hold onto at least one unit to maintain control.

As it stands now, the 2 board members who happen to be villa owners were hand-picked by Starwood and effectively act as puppets for them. Currently, the Virgin Grand Villas at the Westin St. John are approximately 90% owner occupied, yet Starwood maintains control of the Board (3 of the 5 board members are Starwood employees). I should mention that an amendment of the by-laws requires an approval of 2/3 of all owners. I truly doubt that 2/3 of the owners voted in favor of this. This rule about control of the Board was not in the original by-laws set up by Virgin Grand Villas in 1989.

Additionally, under the current by-laws (I doubt this changed from the original set) major upgrades to the villas require a 2/3 approval from the owners. Back in 2006, this was put to a vote, and the owners overwhelmingly voted "No". In 2007, it was put to a vote again, but there weren't enough votes, so there wasn't a quorum. In 2008, the board of directors went around their own by-laws to approve the upgrades. Instead of having a line item on the maintenance bill that said "Assessment for Upgrades" (this would have been the case if the owners voted "yes"), the Operating Assessment (i.e. - Maintenance Fees) went up substantially between 2008 and 2009 (over a 50% increase). It went up even further in 2010, because the developer withdrew his operating subsidy.

Additionally, a bad debt reserve had to be added in 2010 because of so many defaults in 2009. Even if the MF's never went up in 2009, defaults would have gone up with the downturn in the economy. Now couple that with the substantial increase in MF's and the rate of default has gone up exponentially. To add insult to injury, the fees increased even further in 2010 because of the good paying owners had to effectively subsidize those that didn't pay. The upgrade costs will continue through 2011 and in theory should go down, but I don't believe it. They are supposed to replace the roofs once the upgrades are done.

Starwood uses the excuse that the good paying owners effectively have to pay the cost of running the place because it operates like a condominium. They claim to be locking out those owners that don't pay MF's and that they would return the money to the association if they rented those units out. Well guess what, Starwood won't show us where the money is going. They won't release the owner's list to us either under the premise of privacy. BTW, the names are public records and can be found in the Recorder of the Deeds office in St. Thomas as well as the Tax Accessor's Office in St. John. I should mention that the original by-laws call for the owner's to have access to all detail financials and to the owner's list.

I could go on forever, but if we had a board that would work with the owner's to go over the budget, we might be able to control costs. However, they are keeping everything quiet and running the timeshare like a dictatorship where we have to simply accept outrageously higher MF's year after year. In order to increase the value of our timeshare, we need to take control of our board and most likely hire a new management company. This was done successfully at Bluebeard's Castle in St. Thomas and their MF's have gone down significantly. Furthermore, a South Carolina law firm came in on contingency and got approx $16 million in damages for them, which were used for much-needed refurbishments.

Unless Starwood is willing to work with the owners of Virgin Grand Villas, we will have no choice but to sue to change the by-laws and to get the ownership records (if we have to, we'll get the records on our own but it will be a very difficult task) and detailed accounting information. Once the case is under way, a judge will order discovery and a forensic accountant will come in and review the records. If there is any sign of wrong-doing, Starwood could get in big trouble, being a public-traded company subject to the regulations of the FTC and SEC. Look what happened to Enron and Bernard Madoff.

The bottom line is that a lawsuit has a lot to do with falling values of the timeshares. The values are so low because they are unsellable. Hopefully we can correct some of these issues by pressure from politicians and these government agencies. However, if that doesn't do the trick we will have no choice but to sue. Once the owners have control of the board and have the ability to hire their own management company, costs will go down, bringing MF's down and hence increase the value of the timeshares.

In theory you are correct, a lawsuit has little to do with the falling values of timeshares. Unfortunately, it may be the last mechanism available for the owners to take control of it and increase the value of them.





I couldn't agree more! Just like our government (promise I won't take sides and talk politics), the HOA boards and timeshare developers need to be transparent. A small percentage of owners posting on TUG about potential lawsuits has VERY LITTLE to do with the falling values of timeshares. If you want to lay blame you need to look at Starwood and the HOAs. If my salary could go up at the rate that my MFs are going up, with no apparent end in sight, I would not worry too much about the increase in MFs.
 
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DavidnRobin

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WSJ VG Owners Unite!

Attention WSJ VG (Hillside) Owners:

There is a concerted effort to get 1-2 Owners on the WSJ VG HOA BOD at the upcoming elections that will represent the concerns of WSJ Owners. The intent is to place knowledgable and responsible Owners who will work on creating transparency for all concerned Owners in the dealings of the WSJ HOA within the SVO system, and represent Owners in a fair and balanced manner.

If you are a concerned WSJ VG Owner, please contact Gene (Tugger GeneNWendy) at cruisingemj@gmail.com to get on the WSJ VG Owners list, and to find out more about the approaches that are being taken in pursuit of our goals: 1) Transparency, 2) Accountability and 3) Fair Representation.

We cannot do this alone as this is a large undertaking against a system that is skewed towards SVO control of the WSJ HOA. Please join our efforts!

Thanks,
David

(DeniseM - sorry about the double post - but as you are aware - it is time to take action before our MFs double again...)
 

DavidnRobin

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USVI Property Tax Update

As read from the "News of St John" blog
http://barnako.typepad.com/news_of_st_john_usvi/


Property tax bill coming in July
The first of two well-overdue property tax bills is likely to be in a mailbox near you in July. So said the territory's Tax Assessor, Bernadette Williams, in remarks to the Virgin Islands Daily News.

The bill in July, at the 1998 rate, will be for the year 2006. The 2007 bill can be expected by New Year's.

The bills will be sent after the VI Senate approved the Governor's request for their issuance. What the Senate did not approve was the John de Jongh's plea for the OK to do a issue for $110 million. The money would be used, essentially, for government operating expenses.

Because the Territory has not collected property taxes for four years, due to federal court objections, the Virgin Islands government is darn near broke.


http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/index.pl/article_home?id=17644813

http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/index.pl/article_home?id=17644944
 

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Slightly off topic but a St. John Question

Does anyone know when they raised the points necessary to stay in the WSJ 3 Bedroom Pool Side Villa from 148,000 to 196,000 for exchangers? I'm considering my own legal challenge in that, this trade what we were sold on and the primary reason we bought our TS in Maui in 2006 (preconstruction WKORV - N) Our home resort was not ready for us to stay in until 2008. So I'm wondering: did they sell us on a bill of goods that had already changed or would never be available to us by the time our TS ownership really (stay ability) began in 2008? I would like to do a discovery and find out when corporate knew they were raising the SVO point exchange for the large WSJ 3 bedroom pool hillside villas specifically because if had been decided prior to our closing escrow then wouldn't it fraud or bait and switch? I know they say they have the right to change their program any time to whatever they want in the fine print but if it is already been decided that it will be raised and they are making sales based on outdated info....you get my point.
 

DeniseM

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ginja - I fully understand why your are upset, but if you position is that the sales person lied to you or misled you, I don't think that will work, because the Starwood contracts state that verbal promises/statements are not binding.
 

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I'm basing my possible legal angle on the fact that I had printed material in my owner book (the glossy one with the pictures) showing the St. John layout configurations and point requirements. So this is a Starwood printed sales piece. I've found out the hard way that they have small print in the legal part that states they can change whatever / whenever but if they are showing me printed material that I am basing my purchase on and it has already been decided by corporate that those levels won't / don't exist when I am finally able to use the SVO exchange is that fraud or bait and switch. I know it is probably somtheing best answered by a lawyer but I would need to know when it was they changed the point requirements to build my case.
 

James1975NY

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I'm basing my possible legal angle on the fact that I had printed material in my owner book (the glossy one with the pictures) showing the St. John layout configurations and point requirements. So this is a Starwood printed sales piece. I've found out the hard way that they have small print in the legal part that states they can change whatever / whenever but if they are showing me printed material that I am basing my purchase on and it has already been decided by corporate that those levels won't / don't exist when I am finally able to use the SVO exchange is that fraud or bait and switch. I know it is probably somtheing best answered by a lawyer but I would need to know when it was they changed the point requirements to build my case.

Would you consider legal action if the three-bedrooms were still 148,100 in St. John and they increased your Maui property to 196,000? That was a rhetorical question....

Believe it or not, while you see this as a negative impact to you, the fact that Starwood has the flexibility to manage the StarOption assignments in the "club" is a good thing. As time passes and more resorts are added to the "club", there will come a time where the system has to be re-evaluated as it relates to seasonality, demand, supply etc. This is one of those adjustments. I know it does not feel good in your situation but there will be necessary changes like this from time to time to keep the program whole.
 

DavidnRobin

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Hi ginja - It states in the CCRs that the SOs for a VOI can be altered. There was a SO revision for WSJ -VG (Hillside) - that includes the 3Bd pool villas - in 2008 starting in 2009 (IIRC). As a WSJ-VG Owner - I an glad that they increased the SO requirement for WSJ-VG because my 2Bd/3Ba Townhouse (June) was only worth 67.1K SOs (which would only get a studio in HI), and was increased to 81K SO (which would allow for a 1Bd in HI). Not much better, but at least something...

Obviously the reasoning was to bring WSJ-VG in-line with other resorts, but especially with the newly built WSJ-BV (Bay Vista) - all 2Bd and 3Bd villas - as well as the other 3Bd villas in SVN (like HRA). Essentially creating a top value of 196K SOs and working down from there. It was not done as to screw non-WSJ Owners (bait and switch by SVO/SVN) or hamper their ability to get into WSJ (VG or BV) since that is actually still open to you - just not for a 3Bd during prime season. Would you even be able to get a 3Bd pool villa in prime season as a SVN exchange? There are certainly few (if any) ever reported here on TUG - which only represents a small fraction of informed Owners, but would have a high liklihood of hearing about it. Look at RedWeek - those villas are renting for >$5000 - a 3Bd villa owner (premium season) that allowed ther villa to get into SVN would have little regard for their units value.

Regardless, it would be a challenging lawsuit on many levels...

more to the point is that SVO sales lied when they said that you can exchange into WSJ or HRA - and made it sound easy - when in fact - it is not (unless you want to go off-season).

added - the actual date of the revised SO is listed in the thread somewhere (but you would have to search for it - it was likely me who posted it).

and... James is correct.

good luck
 
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Loriannf

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Look at it from the point of view of a WSJ pool villa owner

Before they changed the StarOptions, our "middle" season 3 bedroom pool villa weeks were worth 98,700 staroptions; we couldn't get a two bedroom in Hawaii (148,000) for our 3 bedroom pool villa. In fact, our 3 bedroom WSJ pool villa couldn't get HRA or even SHERATON VISTANA VILLAGES ORLANDO 3 bedrooms!

So even if you had the necessary StarOptions, you probably wouldn't have gotten WSJ because hardly anyone deposited their week into SVO because there were no "equitable" exchanges. Now our StarOptions are slightly more equitable at 125,000, which will get us same season 3 bedroom trades at HRA and Vistana - BUT STILL WON'T GET ME A 2 BEDROOM IN HAWAII AT ANY TIME OF THE YEAR!!!!!.

Not a problem, though, because I can make private/direct exchanges for Hawaii should I desire to, as so many of you that purchased in Hawaii now want to go to St. John.

Buy where you want to go. Thankfully, we hardly ever want to go anywhere other than WSJ :)
 

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DavodandRobin, ... "more to the point is that SVO sales lied when they said that you can exchange into WSJ or HRA - and made it sound easy - when in fact - it is not (unless you want to go off-season)."

No salesman says that you can exchange for the exact same sized unit in the same season. People hear what they want to hear and then accuse salesmen of lying.

Listening is an art. You and Loriannef and anyone else at St. John always had the ability to trade anywhere else in the SVN system. You just couldn't trade 3-br for 3-br at Harborside in the same season you owned. Now you can.

But, if you own a 3-br at St. John in hurricane or summer season, you still can't get a 2-br in Hawaii using Staroptions (neither can a 3-br hurricane or summer owner at Harborside). You can still reserve in Hawaii. But, only a 1-br.

St. John is no different than anywhere else. While size does matter (lol!) the season owned is just as important for SVN trading.

Even with Starwood upping the Staroptions at St. John (to the consternation of ginja, who wants to sue), you guys with a ticket to Paradise still don't seem to be very happy. lol! ... eom
 

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...not sure I should bother (I usually pass because I do not need my words turned around on me...), but... SVO salespeople do claim that you will be able to exchage your VOI via SVN (same size or not) into other resorts AND do not give you the caveat that this is hard to do for resorts like WSJ and HRA - how do I know this? Because they have used this sales technique on me more than once AND I have heard them say this to others (many times to many people that go through a TS presentation). They not only use these verbal lies, but others as well - as documented here on TUG many times. It has nothing to do with the 'art of listening' it has to do with the 'art of believing (or not believing) and the 'art of researching' which brought me (and many others) to TUG.

but that is not the point (whether SVO salespeople are truthful or not - we know the answer to that...) - because in the sales contract there is a clause (as Denise stated - and as nodge pointed out many years ago - which I have in turn used in negotiation) <<<PARAPHRASING>>> that states that anything that was told to you verbally by a salesperson is not enforcable unless explicitly written in the contract.
 
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jarta

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DavidandRobin, ... I guess what you disgree with in my prior post is that sometimes people hear what they want to hear. Twas ever thus - except on TUG.

I will not respond to your next allegation that a claim that "you will be able to exchange your VOI (same size or not) via SVN into other resorts" without adding more is telling a verbal lie.

BTW, I made 2 Staroptions trades into Harborside last year (not using my owned week) and this year I have made 2 Staroptions trades into 3-brs at St. John (Plat. & Hurricane). I was a little surprised to make 4 trades on 4 phone calls because of all I read on TUG, but it wasn't that hard. ... eom
 
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DavidnRobin

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DavidandRobin, ... I guess what you disgree with in my prior post is that sometimes people hear what they want to hear. Twas ever thus - except on TUG.

I will not respond to your next allegation that a claim that "you will be able to exchange your VOI (same size or not) via SVN into other resorts" without adding more is telling a verbal lie.

BTW, I made 2 Staroptions trades into Harborside last year (not using my owned week) and this year I have made 2 Staroptions trades into 3-brs at St. John (Plat. & Hurricane). I was a little surprised to make 4 trades on 4 phone calls because of all I read on TUG, but it wasn't that hard. ... eom

[deleted by me - not worth the effort]
you are my hero - i can only wish i were you
 
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Tia

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I posted an up date on 4/13 on the Caribbean board re the ts taxes in the USVI-

"Judge Gomez of the U.S. District Court, District of the
Virgin Islands, granted class action status in the ts tax litigation filing by Ira Frank. Trial is set for December 1st of this year with an aggressive
schedule of discovery set. In fact, mediation will take place in May...."

....
The bill in July, at the 1998 rate, will be for the year 2006. The 2007 bill can be expected by New Year's.

....http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/index.pl/article_home?id=17644813

http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/index.pl/article_home?id=17644944
 

LisaRex

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I'd personally love if they recalculated all the SOs to be more in line with MFs, however this is admittedly because I'm paying top dollar to own a resort than everyone loves to trade into.

Why, oh why, didn't I buy SDO resale so I'd feel savvy instead of foolish? :D
 
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