Westgate Park City questions

[sng85]

Honestly, I dont care if anyone buys at Westgate Park City or not as I dont want to competition for booking great ski weeks, BUT at least post the facts and truth.

Resale ski week owners (i.e. 1 bedroom ski week) can BOOK any ski week (1 bedroom ski week) at 11 months (other than the fixed 7, 51, 52) once they are a member and there is no restrictions for that.

Fixed weeks are not necessarily safer if you want to ski any week other than the single fixed week (7, 51, 52) and those weeks are mega crowded in Park City.

Currently there are great bargains for Marriott Park City, BUT those are HARD to book at 12 months out as you are competing against the double week owners that book at 13 months. Marriotts are not priced as a premium over Westgate, in fact their annual dues are much less. However, this thread is based on a $1 resale for Westgate and I personally think it will get snatched in ROFR, but would buy it for sure at that price.

HGVC is awesome (probably the best in Park City), but there are NO BARGAINS out there resale and they sell super fast. Also, it is a fantastic resort, but a longer walk to the gondola and orange bubble lift than Westgate. Also, they book fast at 12 months out too as there is not too many units there.

@DazedandConfused - I'm trying to understand the facts/truth in order to make a decision - not skewering them.
Your version of the facts are based on your experience, and others seem to have had a different experience. I came across this thread on tug.

Westgate resale restrictions

This has issue has come up in another thread and I thought that I would take the points of how Westgate eviscerates the rights of buyers of Westgate Properties on resale. Fees Westgate has a three tier fee system. One for Developer Purchased Online(Retail), Developer Purchased Agent(Retail) and...

tugbbs.com

So just trying to make my own assessment, that's all.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

@DazedandConfused - I'm trying to understand the facts/truth in order to make a decision - not skewering them.
Your version of the facts are based on your experience, and others seem to have had a different experience. I came across this thread on tug.

Westgate resale restrictions

This has issue has come up in another thread and I thought that I would take the points of how Westgate eviscerates the rights of buyers of Westgate Properties on resale. Fees Westgate has a three tier fee system. One for Developer Purchased Online(Retail), Developer Purchased Agent(Retail) and...

tugbbs.com

So just trying to make my own assessment, that's all.

1)- TUG has a very limited base of active members who are also,Westgate owners. Some of the information about Westgate is anecdotal.

2)- @DrQ is an owner via Westgate taking over a resort he already owned. He was nice enough to post owners
manual details that gives the specifics .

3)- Specific to Westgate Park City is the ski season ownership. The use details of booking at 11 months are verified by a number of posts.

4)- Westgate sells weeks , even if packaged as “seasons”. To me this implies that there is an underlying deed.
I am not a lawyer. My opinion is Westgate would have legality issues if they they were to disallow certain rights that
pertain to a specific ownership such as “ ski season - defined as weeks 1-6 , 8-15 ,47-50.

5) - What they can do is outlined in the owners manual in the non-developer bought column.

@grupp seems to have acquired a week for $1+closing that made it past ROFR.
@DazedandConfused also has knowledge details on owner use of Westgate Park City.

IMO - now is a good time to search for this ownership on the resale market, due to Covid 19 disruptions to the marketplace.

 

[sng85]

1)- TUG has a very limited base of active members who are also,Westgate owners. Some of the information about Westgate is anecdotal.

2)-@DrQ is an owner via Westgate taking over a resort he already owned. He was nice enough to post owners
manual details that gives the specifics .

3)- Specific to Westgate Park City is the ski season ownership. The use details of booking at 11 months are verified by a number of posts.

4)- Westgate sells weeks , even if packaged as “seasons”. To me this implies that there is an underlying deed.
I am not a lawyer. My opinion is Westgate would have legality issues if they they were to disallow certain rights that
pertain to a specific ownership such as “ ski season - defined as weeks 1-6 , 8-15 ,47-50.

5) - What they can do is outlined in the owners manual in the non-developer bought column.

@grupp seems to have acquired a week for $1+closing that made it past ROFR.
@DazedandConfused also has knowledge details on owner use of Westgate Park City.

IMO - now is a good time to search for this ownership on the resale market, due to Covid 19 disruptions to the marketplace.

Thank you. Agree that now is a good time to look for ownership and from @DazedandConfused post comparing the options in PC, Westgate IMO is a winner, just wanted to understand what I would be buying.

 

[DazedandConfused]

@DazedandConfused - I'm trying to understand the facts/truth in order to make a decision - not skewering them.
Your version of the facts are based on your experience, and others seem to have had a different experience. I came across this thread on tug.

Westgate resale restrictions

This has issue has come up in another thread and I thought that I would take the points of how Westgate eviscerates the rights of buyers of Westgate Properties on resale. Fees Westgate has a three tier fee system. One for Developer Purchased Online(Retail), Developer Purchased Agent(Retail) and...

tugbbs.com

So just trying to make my own assessment, that's all.

The other negative comments are NOT from Westgate Park City owners.

I can't comment on any other Westgate resort as I only own (resale) at the Park City location and have no desire to trade it or use any other Westgate location (although Elara was originally Westgate and is now HGVC and awesome). I can only state that for a ski week, I paid about $20k for a 2 bedroom that originally sold for over $50k about 10 years ago and this has been a fantastic purchase and I have enjoyed many weeks at this resort. The resort has always been maintained very well, has the best steakhouse in Utah, great skier services, great pool and spa, and the rooms are really nice. Unfortunately, the annual dues has increased much faster than the Marriotts and there is little we can do to stop that and it will probably continue to get worse (but it is still reasonable). I have always been able to get any week in February (not week 7) or March at the 11 month window and that alone was the deciding factor for me to buy Westgate over Marriott as I had friends that owned at both the park city marriotts and they complained how hard it was to book ski weeks and how quickly they sell out and sometimes they are trying to book next years ski week during their current vacation as it is the 12 month window. I have no idea how the new points system is affecting those resorts.

I have also visited every other timeshare in park city and still love westgate park city, but I really like HGVC Sunrise Lodge even more (but am not buying there as the prices are very high right now) and if the price was right, I would swap to that resort over westgate, but I dont see that happening anytime soon. I was lucky to book that resort with my HGVC Las Vegas points and it is a wonderful resort.

 

[Marathoner]

Currently there are great bargains for Marriott Park City, BUT those are HARD to book at 12 months out as you are competing against the double week owners that book at 13 months. Marriotts are not priced as a premium over Westgate, in fact their annual dues are much less. However, this thread is based on a $1 resale for Westgate and I personally think it will get snatched in ROFR, but would buy it for sure at that price.

I agree that $1 for a 2BR ski week is a great price.

I disagree about your view that Marriott is difficult to book. I own ski weeks at both Summit Watch and Mountainside, both fixed week holiday and floating platinum (ski week). The fixed weeks are fixed so no issue there. For the floating weeks, aside from certain events such as Sundance and Presidents Week at Summit Watch (which is a holiday week but not a fixed week when sold originally), I've not experienced any issues using my floating weeks to book a prime ski weeks in Feb or March.

 

[DazedandConfused]

I disagree about your view that Marriott is difficult to book. I own ski weeks at both Summit Watch and Mountainside, both fixed week holiday and floating platinum (ski week). The fixed weeks are fixed so no issue there. For the floating weeks, aside from certain events such as Sundance and Presidents Week at Summit Watch (which is a holiday week but not a fixed week when sold originally), I've not experienced any issues using my floating weeks to book a prime ski weeks in Feb or March.

When do you book - at the 12 month mark exactly at opening? What happens if you wait a few hours or even a few days after the 12 month window opens?

I did my original Park city research 10 years ago when I was a buyer and at that time it was crystal clear that Marriott was hard to book Feb-March ski weeks unless you owned 2 weeks and HGVC was not even built then.

 

[Marathoner]

When do you book - at the 12 month mark exactly at opening? What happens if you wait a few hours or even a few days after the 12 month window opens?

I book within a couple minutes of the 12 month open. I do not wait a few hours or days past the 12 month mark for the floating weeks. But anyone can do this.

I've waited for days or even months for the fixed weeks before booking and there was no issue.

 

[sng85]

I don't see any $1 ski weeks anymore. Seems like the going rate for a 2 bedroom, ski week is around $7-$8K now. Still lower than Marriott and great value, but obviously not as good as $1.

 

[Marathoner]

I don't see any $1 ski weeks anymore. Seems like the going rate for a 2 bedroom, ski week is around $7-$8K now. Still lower than Marriott and great value, but obviously not as good as $1.

Timeshares are an opaque, fragmented market. If you see a price on a website like Redweek, that is an offered price that nobody is accepting. If there are a large number of weeks for sale, then the offered prices can be more representative but you still should use multiple sources of information - both online and timeshare brokers. Unfortunately, because the timeshare market is fragmented, you really need to talk to well established brokers that specialize in a particular region or brand to be able to collect the information necessary. Unless you can collect the prices for two sides of the market (both closed sales and offered prices), you won't have a good sense of where the market is.

Multiple times, I have negotiated prices more than ten thousand dollars off of the original listed price. And unless you know where the market is, its difficult to have the confidence to walk away if the price isn't where you want it to be.

 

[DazedandConfused]

The historic challenge with Park City resale ski weeks is that they are desirable and relatively expensive as compared to other locations. When you consider ski season is only 16 weeks or so long and the prime weeks are probably only 10 weeks, then you can understand that this is not like Orlando or Las vegas.

HGVC is probably the nicest and resales are very hard to find and expensive
Westgate is nice, but the management company is not the nicest
The two Marriotts are nice, but lots of competition for booking ski weeks
Park Plaza in Park City is a bargain, but not ski-in/out and a 2.5 star resort (not bad, but not great)
Wyndham/Worldmark/Miners club seems pretty good (but sorta isolated resort) and I have never been inside
The Lift Lodge - I have no info about this place

 

[Marathoner]

Wyndham/Worldmark/Miners club seems pretty good (but sorta isolated resort) and I have never been inside

While somewhat isolated, these resorts are at the base of the Frostwood gondola so they are a short convenient walk to the gondola which takes you to the Canyons base village. They are also across the Waldorf hotel so there is a high quality bar and restuarant you can walk to.

Wyndham Park City is only about 5 years old so everything is shiny and new inside.

Worldmark Park City have only 2/3/4 bedrooms (no lock-offs) and are huge and they do look nice. The 4 bedroom units sleeps 12 and effectively has 2 living rooms (the second living room is on the upper floor of the duplex unit). They are over 2200 sq ft. The 2 bedroom only sleeps 6 but are 1300 sq ft so still very spacious. All the master bedrooms and living rooms have a fireplace. But Worldmark has only 14 units here and they are impossible to book in the winter. If you think that Marriotts are difficult to book, WM is much more challenging.

 

[DazedandConfused]

While somewhat isolated, these resorts are at the base of the Frostwood gondola so they are a short convenient walk to the gondola which takes you to the Canyons base village. They are also across the Waldorf hotel so there is a high quality bar and restuarant you can walk to.

The Waldorf is super nice, especially during summer, but that Frostwood gondola run (ie. ski back) is often not open due to lack of snow, but using the gondola both ways makes that site much more desirable than if it was not there.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

I don't see any $1 ski weeks anymore. Seems like the going rate for a 2 bedroom, ski week is around $7-$8K now. Still lower than Marriott and great value, but obviously not as good as $1.

Timeshares are an opaque, fragmented market. If you see a price on a website like Redweek, that is an offered price that nobody is accepting. If there are a large number of weeks for sale, then the offered prices can be more representative .....
Multiple times, I have negotiated prices more than ten thousand dollars off of the original listed price. And unless you know where the market is, its difficult to have the confidence to walk away if the price isn't.....

Hi sng85,
If you are looking on ebay or similar you could get lucky $1 -the way @grupp did a few weeks ago .

Ebay listings often come from what is generically called postcard companies (ie) the original owner pays
$$ to a company to “ get them out of their timeshare”. The postcard company just wants it gone and may not
not always realize a “diamond in the rough” such as a Westgate Park City ski season week ownership.
A divorce sickness , age , family issues Covid etc. could result in a non-skiing family member paying to dump a valuable week.
The catch is you have to do your due diligence to make sure what was listed is accurate Ebay listings are not always correct on details Getting an Estoppel etc. and then hope it slips thru Westgate’s ROFR.

@Marathoner is experienced in using other sources and knowledge to search for a desired ownership.

Keep looking as you gain knowledge.

 

[sng85]

Hi sng85,
If you are looking on ebay or similar you could get lucky $1 -the way @grupp did a few weeks ago .

Ebay listings often come from what is generically called postcard companies (ie) the original owner pays
$$ to a company to “ get them out of their timeshare”. The postcard company just wants it gone and may not
not always realize a “diamond in the rough” such as a Westgate Park City ski season week ownership.
A divorce sickness , age , family issues Covid etc. could result in a non-skiing family member paying to dump a valuable week.
The catch is you have to do your due diligence to make sure what was listed is accurate Ebay listings are not always correct on details Getting an Estoppel etc. and then hope it slips thru Westgate’s ROFR.

@Marathoner is experienced in using other sources and knowledge to search for a desired ownership.

Keep looking as you gain knowledge.

Thanks @T-Dot-Traveller, will keep looking. I had not considered eBay, will check there as well.

 

[grupp]

Hey, I am the one that got the 2br for $1 and am actually at the resort this week. Went down for the owner update to learn more about the week and how to reserve it. In summary, I was told I can only book 60 days out and they are going to reduce it to 30. He said they were going to make it as difficult and expensive as possible for me to use my week since I bought resale. I told him Siegel is a greedy son of a bitch and is destroying value for the owners. The minute anyone buys a week from them it is immediately worthless since they try to stick it to the resale owners. He said the it is the HOA that want to make the resale owners pay more, so I said I would run to be elected to the board. He said I can’t since I bought resale.

Told him I would take my chances and see if I can make it work for me and if not I will give it away since I only paid a dollar. Got my $150 gift certificate and was on my way after about 20 minutes. Sounds like they are going to flag my ownership somehow and try to stick it to me lol. He made it sound as if they had done that to owners in the past. I told him you can’t treat me any different than other resales owners, but he said Siegel has done that to owners in the past.

I am having a great week here so F#$k them.

 

[jlp879]

Wow, that sounds like an awful "owner's update", but keep in mind you were talking to a timeshare salesperson.

Know how to tell if they're lying? Their lips are moving!

It sounds like they are trying to instill fear in you so you will buy more or give up your great deal week to them.

BTW, can you tell me what are the maintenance fees you pay?

 

[sng85]

@grupp Sounds horrible. Thanks for the update! Is it even legal for them to change your booking window to 60 days or 30 days?
If you had a fixed week, can they still mess it up for you?

 

[grupp]

The "owner update" really wasn't real horrible, the conversation for the most part was friendly and to the point. We just disagreed on many things and he said some things that were not true. It really was disappointing to hear how Westgate Park City (he made sure to differentiate it from their other resorts) plans to make the ownership as difficult as possible for the resales owners.

My main reason for going to the update was to confirm the rules for reserving my week. I was originally told I could reserve at 11 months, but was unable to make a reservation online. So I had called the Westgate reservation number and the representative was confused as well. First she said I could make the reservation at 11 month. So, I asked her to make a reservation for me. She put me on hold for a while and came back and said I had to prepay the estimated 2022 fees in order to make my reservation. I asked her how much and after being on hold for awhile she gave me the estimated amount of little over $2,000. I let her know I had my credit card in hand was was ready to pay an make my reservation. At this point I was put on hold again.

When she came back I was told I could only make my reservation 60 days in advance. I asked her for the association documents that allowed them to put the restrictions on my week. She said the documents were online if I signed into my account to see them. I then asked to speak with a supervisor and was told someone would have to call me back. I did receive a voicemail later in the day from Richard from the Westgate Corp offices, but I have not had a chance to connect with him before my trip. Which is why I went to the owner update to see what, if anything, I could learn.

Westgate Park City is a wonderful resort in a great location and the service by the staff has been amazing. The buildings are a bite confusing to get around at times and the rooms need updating. There is also a monster size hotel going up right next door, so the base area will probably get more congested in the future.

Certainly no regrets getting this week and will figure out a way to make it work despite Westgate efforts to make it difficult for me.

 

[tschwa2]

The "owner update" really wasn't real horrible, the conversation for the most part was friendly and to the point. We just disagreed on many things and he said some things that were not true. It really was disappointing to hear how Westgate Park City (he made sure to differentiate it from their other resorts) plans to make the ownership as difficult as possible for the resales owners.

Westgate has had those rules on the member info for more than 10 years. The question has always been if they were going to enforce those rules. And it is not true that it only applies to Park city. It hovers in the back ground for every float week with Westgate including Myrtle Beach, Gatlinburg and Park City; places where the ability to reserve 11 months vs 60 days really means something. I think the Westgate Elara folks might actually be ok but that may have to do more with Hilton managing the property even though dues still go to Westgate for legacy owners. Conversations at an update with sales generally don't mean anything and everything they say about resale owner is just as likely to be wrong than correct because they don't own retail or resale and really don't have any practical info on how the system works other than second or third hand. The disturbing part is that online and through owner services you couldn't book.

Other things Westgate does is charge 3 times or so for using their internal exchange (so resale owners just don't and use II). It's also in the rules that they can charge 3 times as much to lock off if you are a resale owner vs retail. I am not looking at the rules right now so it might not be 3 times but it is several times more than what retail owners pay. This is why even though I have sometimes been tempted by some westgate property that is being given away or on resale for a good price, in the end I always conclude that the restrictions make it not worth it.

 

[DazedandConfused]

My main reason for going to the update was to confirm the rules for reserving my week. I was originally told I could reserve at 11 months, but was unable to make a reservation online. So I had called the Westgate reservation number and the representative was confused as well. First she said I could make the reservation at 11 month. So, I asked her to make a reservation for me. She put me on hold for a while and came back and said I had to prepay the estimated 2022 fees in order to make my reservation. I asked her how much and after being on hold for awhile she gave me the estimated amount of little over $2,000. I let her know I had my credit card in hand was was ready to pay an make my reservation. At this point I was put on hold again.

Certainly no regrets getting this week and will figure out a way to make it work despite Westgate efforts to make it difficult for me.

FYI - I am a resale owner at Westgate PC and recently booked my Spring 2022 ski week at 11 months, however I could NOT do it online as it appeared to limit me to 8 months or so and when I called the 800 number, they easily booked it for me. I also took the $99 insurance, even though in the past I would skip that.

 

[grupp]

FYI - I am a resale owner at Westgate PC and recently booked my Spring 2022 ski week at 11 months, however I could NOT do it online as it appeared to limit me to 8 months or so and when I called the 800 number, they easily booked it for me. I also took the $99 insurance, even though in the past I would skip that.

Took me a couple calls and would not say it was easy, but I did get the 2022 week booked. Didn't get my first choice time wise, but I was after well after the 11 months started, so I am happy.

Crazy thing about Westgate is they have all these rules set up against resale owners, but their employees, both at the resort and when you call in, are great to work with for the most part and will do what they can to help even if you are a resale owner. However, that does not include those in the sales department.

 

[DazedandConfused]

Took me a couple calls and would not say it was easy, but I did get the 2022 week booked. Didn't get my first choice time wise, but I was after well after the 11 months started, so I am happy.

Crazy thing about Westgate is they have all these rules set up against resale owners, but their employees, both at the resort and when you call in, are great to work with for the most part and will do what they can to help even if you are a resale owner. However, that does not include those in the sales department.

Any tips for your success?
What do you mean didnt get your first choice timewise, what did you get?
How far after 11 months did you try to book?

I also agree with you that the Westgate (non sales) staff are awesome.

 

[grupp]

Any tips for your success?
What do you mean didnt get your first choice timewise, what did you get?
How far after 11 months did you try to book?

I also agree with you that the Westgate (non sales) staff are awesome.

Not really sure on tips for success. The representative I talked with had told me sometimes she can book resale weeks at 11 month and sometimes she can't. She had no idea why there was a difference in ability for resale owners to book their weeks at 11 month. She was very apologetic about not being able to book my week. So, I politely asked to speak with someone higher up who could explain to me where it says they can prevent me from booking my deeded week and to justify how they can allow some resale owners to book their weeks and deny others the ability to do so. I did receive a voicemail form someone in owners services and when I called back to try and talk to him there was apparently a note on my account that I am allowed to book at 11 months. Not sure what the means for 2023, but we will see.

I reserved my week on April 29 and was hoping to get late February (post Presidents day week) or the first week in March. None of those were available and ended up with March 19 check-in and I am fine with that date.

The Westgate Park City is a fantastic resort with great location, service, and amenities and I was very impressed during our stay and looking forward to next year. The app used to request shuttle rides was a real asset if you want to go DT Park city or the other areas they service. Drawbacks are it is kind of like a maze and takes while to navigate your way around and the rooms could us an update.

 

[grupp]

I was trying to buy a 4 br fixed week 7 at Westgate Park city but they decided to exercise their ROFR. Price was just under $35,000.

 

[sng85]

I was trying to buy a 4 br fixed week 7 at Westgate Park city but they decided to exercise their ROFR. Price was just under $35,000.

Wow that sounds like a full price for resale and they still exercised ROFR. Must be pretty bullish on their prospect to resell it at retail!