VIP Value

[MFT]

Does anyone know about what percent of owners are VIP?

Interesting, as those that were original owners with over 300K points (prior to the change) would have had VIP. But factor in all those with less than 300K, plus all the folks who bought resale and don't have VIP.

Ron: Do you know if there's anything out there with that info?

 

[bnoble]

The best chance of finding it might be in one of the presentations the executives periodically make to investors. The ability to upsell current owners is a big piece of the company's financial strategy, and there may well be data given.

 

[SOS8260456]

I think no matter which way you look at it, business use or personal use, the key thing to remember is that those VIP benefits can and have been changed, limited and some taken away. Not one of those benefits is guaranteed....other than having the word "platinum VIP" on my Wyndham account.

We got our VIP Plat before most of the loopholes were closed and we do enjoy not worrying about RTs, HK fees, and guest certificates for the most part (makes us think twice before "wasting" a free one for only 2 or 3 nights).

Sandy brought up an interesting topic and I never really kept track of our actual numbers and I don't feel like going back and looking, but I also have started a spread sheet for calculating this stuff going forward (at least for 2013) because now I am curious about it.

One thing though, if owners want to stay at the new resorts during prime seasons, even for just a few weeks a year, those points can add up fast.

 

[pacodemountainside]

I went to a Corporate owner update at Wyndham Hotel here in Denver a couple years ago.

Response was they try and keep VIP around 15% permanent and 20% with temporary sales up grades

Was 1% Platinum, 3% Gold and 11% Silver. New sales and resales losing more or less balanced out.

Obviously, too many becomes worthless perk and expensive for sales to pay for.

In my case I used to use RCI 28K deposits, now I am using VIP and I gather many others are too putting more pressure on VIP availability!

I have asked Russel Cook, Controller of VOI Trust for current info and he basically said trade secret, take flying leap at a rolling donut.

Have reviewed stock touts by Main Man and he has not mentioned. He does state Sales makes about 6 times profit on upgrades and that is what is being pushed. $10 bounty to parking pass person a lot cheaper than a couple hundred for warm body off street!

IMO given that around 25K new owners were being added a year pre-recession and last two just 4K, sales cannot continue to pay some $12 million cash plus developer inventory for VIP upgrades.

If Developer gets around $170 cash for VIP can easily afford. However, when fixed weeks are converted, PICs done and foreclosures are dumped something has to give.

If one has 2 million VIP points and is getting 5 million points that means 3 million points at $5.00 or $15K out of sales pocket. Given that average Wyndham sale to newbie is $17K and profit is 6% or $1K+ they have to make 15 sales to just cover one Platinum VIP. Something has to give.

 

[jjmanthei05]

... sales cannot continue to pay some $12 million cash plus developer inventory for VIP upgrades.

If Developer gets around $170 cash for VIP can easily afford. However, when fixed weeks are converted, PICs done and foreclosures are dumped something has to give.

If one has 2 million VIP points and is getting 5 million points that means 3 million points at $5.00 or $15K out of sales pocket. Given that average Wyndham sale to newbie is $17K and profit is 6% or $1K+ they have to make 15 sales to just cover one Platinum VIP. Something has to give.

The extra points are included with that 12 million dollar cost. Also wyndhams sales last quarter did $300,000,000 in sales. So if they have to give up 1% to get 300 million in sales that doesn't seem like it's going to break the backs of Wyndham any time soon. Especailly with their new WAAM model where they don't have to put up any money for inventory.

Jason

 

[jjmanthei05]

The extra points are included with that 12 million dollar cost. Also wyndhams sales last quarter did $300,000,000 in sales. So if they have to give up 1% to get 300 million in sales that doesn't seem like it's going to break the backs of Wyndham any time soon. Especailly with their new WAAM model where they don't have to put up any money for inventory.

Jason

Sorry just looked it up and in their last company filing it was 608 million in sales last quarter...

Jason

 

[lcml11]

I went to a Corporate owner update at Wyndham Hotel here in Denver a couple years ago.

Response was they try and keep VIP around 15% permanent and 20% with temporary sales up grades

Was 1% Platinum, 3% Gold and 11% Silver. New sales and resales losing more or less balanced out.

Obviously, too many becomes worthless perk and expensive for sales to pay for.

In my case I used to use RCI 28K deposits, now I am using VIP and I gather many others are too putting more pressure on VIP availability!

I have asked Russel Cook, Controller of VOI Trust for current info and he basically said trade secret, take flying leap at a rolling donut.

Have reviewed stock touts by Main Man and he has not mentioned. He does state Sales makes about 6 times profit on upgrades and that is what is being pushed. $10 bounty to parking pass person a lot cheaper than a couple hundred for warm body off street!

IMO given that around 25K new owners were being added a year pre-recession and last two just 4K, sales cannot continue to pay some $12 million cash plus developer inventory for VIP upgrades.

If Developer gets around $170 cash for VIP can easily afford. However, when fixed weeks are converted, PICs done and foreclosures are dumped something has to give.

If one has 2 million VIP points and is getting 5 million points that means 3 million points at $5.00 or $15K out of sales pocket. Given that average Wyndham sale to newbie is $17K and profit is 6% or $1K+ they have to make 15 sales to just cover one Platinum VIP. Something has to give.

Thanks for the info. With the resort specials open to everyone, the value of the Silver VIP benifit is seriously erroded, unless specific resorts and/or timeframes are needed. That leaves the 4 pecent for Gold and Platinum plus the bonus points for new sales.

 

[ronparise]

I dont think they have to...but someone does. If not sales; who?

VIP is a sales perc, it only makes sense that the expense is to the sales budget

 

[tschwa2]

Although there is a line item in the budgets with payment from Wyndham for VIP benefits I personally doubt it covers 100% of additional cost in wear/tear/use from additional VIP upgrades, transactions, discounts, etc. I think corporate decides how much they are going to contribute each year and owners (both VIP and non) make up the rest. I also think that by collecting and raising fees (transfer, HK, transaction, GC, etc) they help pay for the VIP benefits.

I wish Wyndham would publish a full disclosure to owners proving me wrong and showing VIP usage specifics at each resort.

 

[pacodemountainside]

The extra points are included with that 12 million dollar cost. Also wyndhams sales last quarter did $300,000,000 in sales. So if they have to give up 1% to get 300 million in sales that doesn't seem like it's going to break the backs of Wyndham any time soon. Especailly with their new WAAM model where they don't have to put up any money for inventory.

Jason

You have no comprehension what you are talking about! I got my information from Russel Cook on $12 million, where did you get yours? Suggest you read audited Trust financials before running afoul of Abe Lincoln's sage advice, better to remain silent and be thought a fool and speak out and remove all doubt!

If you take 15% VIP owners times around 500K Trust members that is 75K.

Divide 75K into $12 million and you get $160 per member. This could only cover HK, GCs, etc. for Silver VIPs and all the other extras Gold and Platinum get.

Hell, my Silver points discounts are over $300 a year. Platinum with lots of resale can run over $10K. Fearless forecast, Wyndham sales will stop allowing VIPs resale points to get VIP benefits.

Money collected this year goes to pay for Main Man's salary, bonus, perks, and dividends to stockholders. VIP benefits are a DRAG on earnings until day of big fire or more likely extermination.

Yes, Main Man stole a great concept from "The Donald". Put up your name and expertise and let the suckers put up the cash for bricks, sticks and mortar.

Is $608,000,000 just TSs or all Corporate?

 

[lcml11]

You have no comprehension what you are talking about! I got my information from Russel Cook on $12 million, where did you get yours? Suggest you read audited Trust financials before running afoul of Abe Lincoln's sage advice, better to remain silent and be thought a fool and speak out and remove all doubt!

If you take 15% VIP owners times around 500K Trust members that is 75K.

Divide 75K into $12 million and you get $160 per member. This could only cover HK, GCs, etc. for Silver VIPs and all the other extras Gold and Platinum get.

Hell, my Silver points discounts are over $300 a year. Platinum with lots of resale can run over $10K. Fearless forecast, Wyndham sales will stop allowing VIPs resale points to get VIP benefits.

Money collected this year goes to pay for Main Man's salary, bonus, perks, and dividends to stockholders. VIP benefits are a DRAG on earnings until day of big fire or more likely extermination.

Yes, Main Man stole a great concept from "The Donald". Put up your name and expertise and let the suckers put up the cash for bricks, sticks and mortar.

Is $608,000,000 just TSs or all Corporate?

Not sure where the number came from, however, I did review the online audit statment for 2011. My guess, the number would cover all of the Wyndham Vacation Ownership systems and not just Club Wyndham Plus/Access. The numbers do not make since when I calucated the 608 million divided by the average sales price as reflect in an earlier post.

The only re-imbursable fees from Wyndham for Club Wyndham Plus/Access resorts that I have heard of from Wyndham Staff are the newspaper and additional housekeeping costs if a week is broken up.

There have been some indirect references that the soap, shampoo, popcorn, etc. my also be in that pot. You may be right that something may have to give on the Coorporate Wyndham payments to the trust. My last visit to Shawnee Village, the soaps were cut down to 2 bars. Shampoos, handcreams, etc, were gone, the popcorn bag went by the way side, as is not uncommon, had to call for the newspaper, etc.

 

[pacodemountainside]

Who says Sales has to pay for VIP benefits?

Are you serious?

Have you read FVPUMT Trust Document of 1991 as amended?

Have you read audited Trust Fund Documents?

Have you read Club Wyndam Directory?

Have you read purchase sales documents that state VIP benefits are sales perk that can be exterminated at any time and specifically excluded from Deeded Benefits?

 

[lcml11]

Are you serious?

Have you read FVPUMT Trust Document of 1991 as amended?

Have you read audited Trust Fund Documents?

Have you read Club Wyndam Directory?

Have you read purchase sales documents that state VIP benefits are sales perk that can be exterminated at any time and specifically excluded from Deeded Benefits?

You listed four points but 5 ponders, was there a point you witheld?

 

[pacodemountainside]

Not sure where the number came from, however, I did review the online audit statment for 2011. My guess, the number would cover all of the Wyndham Vacation Ownership systems and not just Club Wyndham Plus/Access. The numbers do not make since when I calucated the 608 million divided by the average sales price as reflect in an earlier post.

The only re-reimbursable fees from Wyndham for Club Wyndham Plus/Access resorts that I have heard of from Wyndham Staff are the newspaper and additional housekeeping costs if a week is broken up.

There have been some indirect references that the soap, shampoo, popcorn, etc. my also be in that pot. You may be right that something may have to give on the Corporate Wyndham payments to the trust. My last visit to Shawnee Village, the soaps were cut down to 2 bars. Shampoos, handcreams, etc, were gone, the popcorn bag went by the way side, as is not uncommon, had to call for the newspaper, etc.

Suggest you review VIP benefits on page 288, etc. of Directory. Granted most really have no verifiable cash value. However, you will note Gold and Platinum do get lots of perks. Does the resort get USA Today free or do they bill Trust say $5.00 bucks plus delivery charge, who knows. Does sales pay for special VIP phone line and check in counter at resort? Who knows. Does sales reimburse for VIPs using limo in Vegas? Who knows? That is why we have auditors who hopefully do their job!

Sales must pay for VIPs getting free $49.50 PERKS Program.

As far as toiletries, I doubt being a VIP has anything to do with especially since many room assignments are made at check-in.

There has been a major reduction in free Wine and Cheese welcome parties, complimentary coffee in the lobby, increasing resort activity fees, reduction in stocking units with all the good stuff. But, this has nothing to do with VIP.

 

[pacodemountainside]

You listed four points but 5 ponders, was there a point you witheld?

As we say out West, you are one tough hombre.

After Broncos clinched playoff berth today had too many Margaritas and miscounted!

 

[jjmanthei05]

You have no comprehension what you are talking about! I got my information from Russel Cook on $12 million, where did you get yours? Suggest you read audited Trust financials before running afoul of Abe Lincoln's sage advice, better to remain silent and be thought a fool and speak out and remove all doubt!

If you take 15% VIP owners times around 500K Trust members that is 75K.

Divide 75K into $12 million and you get $160 per member. This could only cover HK, GCs, etc. for Silver VIPs and all the other extras Gold and Platinum get.

Hell, my Silver points discounts are over $300 a year. Platinum with lots of resale can run over $10K. Fearless forecast, Wyndham sales will stop allowing VIPs resale points to get VIP benefits.

Money collected this year goes to pay for Main Man's salary, bonus, perks, and dividends to stockholders. VIP benefits are a DRAG on earnings until day of big fire or more likely extermination.

Yes, Main Man stole a great concept from "The Donald". Put up your name and expertise and let the suckers put up the cash for bricks, sticks and mortar.

Is $608,000,000 just TSs or all Corporate?

I got mine off of wyndham corporates quarterly filings. The 608 million in sales is from wyndham vacation ownership. Total for the year so far is 1.679 billion (Vacation ownership only). I included the link below to wyndham's spreadsheet that shows the 2 numbers. They are on the first 2 tabs (last quarter and year to date). So based on your numbers of 12 million (it isn't broken out in their 10-k), do you honestly think 12 million is a "huge drain on Earnings"? You can't look at the number "wow 12 million is a lot of money." but as a percentage of overall sales. I like facts and go with them. I would guess there are a lot of platinum members who never use their points let alone figure out the system to cancel rebook, get rooms at 60 days ect. The people on this board are the cream of the crop when figuring out how to get the most out fo thier ownership. 99% of owners don't/can't use the system like we do here.

Jason

http://www.wyndhamworldwide.com/docs/WYN-Earnings-Release-Q3-Final.xls

 

[jjmanthei05]

Although there is a line item in the budgets with payment from Wyndham for VIP benefits I personally doubt it covers 100% of additional cost in wear/tear/use from additional VIP upgrades, transactions, discounts, etc. I think corporate decides how much they are going to contribute each year and owners (both VIP and non) make up the rest. I also think that by collecting and raising fees (transfer, HK, transaction, GC, etc) they help pay for the VIP benefits.

I wish Wyndham would publish a full disclosure to owners proving me wrong and showing VIP usage specifics at each resort.

Are you suggesting they are cooking their books? Not showing full expense to show additional profit would put you in enron/worldcomm class and over what a few million dollars? I think the benefits are fully accounted for but they just aren't used that much.

Jason

 

[MFT]

From the Q3 2012 Earnings Press Release:

Vacation Ownership (Wyndham Vacation Ownership)
Revenues were $608 million in the third quarter of 2012, a 9% increase over the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting increased vacation ownership interest (VOI) sales.
Gross VOI sales were $502 million in the third quarter of 2012, up 10% from the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting a 5% increase in both volume per guest and tour flow.
Adjusted EBITDA for the third quarter of 2012 was $155 million, a 4% increase compared with the third quarter of 2011. The increase primarily reflects the revenue increases, partially offset by higher sales and marketing expenses related to the increase in VOI sales and higher intersegment licensing fees for use of the Wyndham brand trade name.

 

[pacodemountainside]

From the Q3 2012 Earnings Press Release:

Vacation Ownership (Wyndham Vacation Ownership)
Revenues were $608 million in the third quarter of 2012, a 9% increase over the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting increased vacation ownership interest (VOI) sales.
Gross VOI sales were $502 million in the third quarter of 2012, up 10% from the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting a 5% increase in both volume per guest and tour flow.
Adjusted EBITDA for the third quarter of 2012 was $155 million, a 4% increase compared with the third quarter of 2011. The increase primarily reflects the revenue increases, partially offset by higher sales and marketing expenses related to the increase in VOI sales and higher intersegment licensing fees for use of the Wyndham brand trade name.

How distressing! Obviously us 60K+ TUGGERs saving a few soles/souls is a drop in bucket.

Lets calculate , $502 million divided by average sale of $117K means over 4K unknowing victims got brutally raped by sales weasels.

$60 a share stock, here we come!

 

[lcml11]

From the Q3 2012 Earnings Press Release:

Vacation Ownership (Wyndham Vacation Ownership)
Revenues were $608 million in the third quarter of 2012, a 9% increase over the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting increased vacation ownership interest (VOI) sales.
Gross VOI sales were $502 million in the third quarter of 2012, up 10% from the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting a 5% increase in both volume per guest and tour flow.
Adjusted EBITDA for the third quarter of 2012 was $155 million, a 4% increase compared with the third quarter of 2011. The increase primarily reflects the revenue increases, partially offset by higher sales and marketing expenses related to the increase in VOI sales and higher intersegment licensing fees for use of the Wyndham brand trade name.

http://www.wyndhamworldwide.com/Portals/0/Investor Relations/2011 Annual Report on Form 10-K.pdf

Many names operate under the Wyndham Vacation Ownership banner. The following is from the link above where they describe the business:

“We operate our vacation ownership business through our two primary brands, Wyndham Vacation Resorts and WorldMark by Wyndham. In October 1999, WorldMark by Wyndham formed Wyndham Vacation Resorts Asia Pacific Pty. Ltd., a New South Wales corporation, or Wyndham Asia Pacific, as its direct wholly owned subsidiary for the purpose of conducting sales, marketing and resort development activities in the South Pacific. Wyndham Asia Pacific is currently the largest vacation ownership business in Australia.” Wyndham Consumer Finance is also part of this group.

WorldMark, The Club and WorldMark South Pacific Club and Club Wyndham Plus get honorable mention. Club Wyndham Plus shows 27,000 and 22,000 new owners during 2011 and 2010. Club Wyndham Access is also part of this grouping.

The sales figures quoted probably reflect all of the activities of Wyndham Vacation Ownership.

Also, the report provides many different names, some identified some not as being part of the cluster.

 

[bnoble]

Obviously us 60K+ TUGGERs saving a few soles/souls is a drop in bucket.

This has always been true. Personally, I've decided I don't care anymore. If people want to spend their money, they are welcome to do so.

 

[jjmanthei05]

This has always been true. Personally, I've decided I don't care anymore. If people want to spend their money, they are welcome to do so.

The other thing to remember it is all of "those" people are what bring us the new resorts into the system. IF the aren't selling anything they aren't adding anything.

Jason