VIP Value

[Sandy VDH]

I was curious how much my VIP Plat netted me in Discounts and Upgrades this year.

Now I did not consider what non VIP discounts were available, because in all honesty I have no idea what was available. I never look.

Now this year was an unusual year, in that I did a lot of short term bookings, with discounts and free upgrades. Not any of this was a book, cancel and rebook approach. I just book at the 60 day mark or less most of the time.

I Have 727,000 (It is considered Platinum via the 2 PIC contracts which I never bother to deposit)


The Stats:
Booked 19 reservations
Booked 71 days, just over 10 weeks worth. (Only 2 of my reservations were for 7 days, most were anywhere from 1 to 5 days)
Received VIP Plat 50% off discount on 17 of 19 reservations.
Received VIP Upgrade on 15 of 19
Booked 1 RCI Vacation (NYC Hilton Club) via Wyndham

Value of Discounts:

Used all of my 727,000
Rented 5,890 pts for just under $50 to make my last reservation for year

Received 621,250 in Value for 50% off Discounts
Received 1,001,150 in Value for Free Upgrades

So Grand total of 2,349,400 in point value received for just under 736,000 in annual MFs.

Now that is an exceptional year and a bit unusual for my normal pattern, but I guess I got my value out of VIP this year.

 

[lcml11]

I was curious how much my VIP Plat netted me in Discounts and Upgrades this year.

Now I did not consider what non VIP discounts were available, because in all honesty I have no idea what was available. I never look.

Now this year was an unusual year, in that I did a lot of short term bookings, with discounts and free upgrades. Not any of this was a book, cancel and rebook approach. I just book at the 60 day mark or less most of the time.

I Have 727,000 (It is considered Platinum via the 2 PIC contracts which I never bother to deposit)


The Stats:
Booked 19 reservations
Booked 71 days, just over 10 weeks worth. (Only 2 of my reservations were for 7 days, most were anywhere from 1 to 5 days)
Received VIP Plat 50% off discount on 17 of 19 reservations.
Received VIP Upgrade on 15 of 19
Booked 1 RCI Vacation (NYC Hilton Club) via Wyndham

Value of Discounts:

Used all of my 727,000
Rented 5,890 pts for just under $50 to make my last reservation for year

Received 621,250 in Value for 50% off Discounts
Received 1,001,150 in Value for Free Upgrades

So Grand total of 2,349,400 in point value received for just under 736,000 in annual MFs.

Now that is an exceptional year and a bit unusual for my normal pattern, but I guess I got my value out of VIP this year.

I experienced similar results with my VIP Platinum benifits.

 

[staceyeileen]

Interesting stats! One thing is for sure, I don't have enough vacation time to be VIP.

 

[jebloomquist]

I don't want to go through the calculations, but I rented over 2 million points, and would bet that the amount booked would have been close to 5 million points without the discounts and upgrades. I will have to do some calculations for the IRS however.

 

[lcml11]

I don't want to go through the calculations, but I rented over 2 million points, and would bet that the amount booked would have been close to 5 million points without the discounts and upgrades. I will have to do some calculations for the IRS however.

Here is a review of my current bookings within the 60 day Platinum Discount period. All entries are Friday and Saturday weekend bookings. Both National Harbor's did not get the upgrades. So, this is probaly on the high side for a snap shot in time.

Wyndham Vacation Resorts Shawnee Village - Ridge Top
Points Used: 18500 2 bedroom deluxe
44,000 Point Chart Value

Wyndham Vacation Resorts at National Harbor
Points Used: 35000 2 bedroom deluxe
89,000 Point Chart Value

Wyndham Skyline Tower
Points used 21,000 1 bedroom suite
42,000 Point Chart Value

Wyndham Vacation Resorts at National Harbor
Points Used: 38000 2 bedroom deluxe
72,000 Point Chart Value

Wyndham Vacation Resorts Shawnee Village - Ridge Top
Points Used: 35000 2 bedroom deluxe
74,000 Point Chart Value

Wyndham Old Town Alexandria
Points Used: 18500 2 bedroom deluxe
64,000 Point Chart Value

Wyndham Old Town Alexandria
Points Used: 18500 2 bedroom deluxe
64,000 Point Chart Value

184,500 VIP Discount points for weekends
449,000 Point Chart Value

14 nights (Friday and Saturday nights only)
5.4 dollars per thousand (approximates Club Wyndham Access rate) equals $ 2, 442.56
1,003.68 (Friday and Saturday nights only) nightly rate is 71.69 per night
$ 2, 442.56 (Friday and Saturday nights only) nightly rate is 174.46 per night

Just added another National Harbor, with upgrade this time.

Wyndham Vacation Resorts at National Harbor
2 Bedroom Deluxe Points required: 41,500
Point Chart Value: 89,000 points

 

[lprstn]

I won't ever upgrade with Wyndham again - they rules change WAY too much for me.

 

[onthego]

Here are our numbers
128 Nights with discount/Upgrade
14 Nights with discount only
8 Nights with no discount
150 Total nights avg cost $56 per night.

 

[timeos2]

Low per night average for the fees paid mean little as the cost to get VIP points vs resale can be 90% extra or more. Fee per point is the same resale or retail so the real savings are only the minimal value of discounted points & it would take decades to ever make up that 90%+ paid as extra, out of pocket REAL dollars paid for VIP points vs resale points. The math seldom makes sense. VIP since retail purchase was made a requirement is basically worthless. In fact in most cases it costs - no way saves-money.

 

[jjmanthei05]

Low per night average for the fees paid mean little as the cost to get VIP points vs resale can be 90% extra or more. Fee per point is the same resale or retail so the real savings are only the minimal value of discounted points & it would take decades to ever make up that 90%+ paid as extra, out of pocket REAL dollars paid for VIP points vs resale points. The math seldom makes sense. VIP since retail purchase was made a requirement is basically worthless. In fact in most cases it costs - no way saves-money.

I would agree with John. The only time that VIP makes sense is if you would strive to achive mega renter status with a large contingent of resale points. If you are using it for your own personal use it rarely makes sense unless you plan on making wyndham your permenant home.

Jason

 

[MFT]

This is a great debate, VIP vs non-VIP. I have several friends who have VIP, and are very happy, and if they are happy, I'm happy. But if you are at square 1, which is the best direction. Let's do a little math.

Using one of the comparisons, the "discount" amounted to around 68.7%, which means if their average MF was $5, they ended up effectively paying $1.56 for the total point value they obtained. Pretty sweet discount... but consider the following.

If you buy resale, and it's not unusual to obtain a property at 90% off retail, but lets even use 80% for this comparison ($0.20 on the dollar).

If you bought say 1000K worth of Wyndham points for say $10 (It's actually closer to $12 - $14 depending on incentives), and got a 70% discount off your useage, you would save over 20 years of use, roughly $115730.80 in MF (Taking into consideration a 5% increase annual of MF, etc...).

Now, if for argument sake, those 1000K points cost you $20K compared to $100K, and you invested that $80K savings in a mutual fund with an average of 5% annual return (very modest), after 20 years, you would have $212263.82. Basically, you would be $96532.98 ahead financially non-VIP vs VIP.

So though the discounts are good, I think the return on investing the amount saved by buying resale as you can see is still a better deal. Now, if Wyndham would roll say 80% your resale properties into a VIP program, than you are probably at a point where going VIP would be a great program. But without that conversion, it's still in my opinion a better deal to go resale.

 

[Rent_Share]

IMHO the resale price of 1M (or 1,000K) Points would be closer to $5K not $20K

MFT - Is your comma key broken ?

 

[MFT]

Absolutely, it would probably be closer to the $5K range, but I'm using the $20K as one of those "worst case scenarios. Paying to much for smaller contracts, or maybe having 1 developer contract mixed in. If I had used the $5K amount, I'd have people saying "oh, that's to low for 1 Mil points... Obviously, if you have another $15K going into a fund for 20 years, your return is even greater!

 

[timeos2]

It would be a plus if we could all agree that VIP is, as it is sold today, a value ONLY if you plan to be a Megarenter OR actually USE massive amounts of points personally. For 95%+ of Wyndham buyers it holds ZERO value compared to the great deals readily available using resale.

It still amazes me how many timeshare savvy folks still fall for the Wyndham Weasel's (sorry to degrade real Weasels by comparing them to these often fact twisting or outright lying sales folk) tall tales of savings even as they sell for $15 /1000 what you can have for a few hundred at most. Yet they somehow manage to make it SEEM that spending thousands up front and lost forever in a mere matter of days make sense. Speaks volumes of how easily manipulated the typical buyer really is.

The few we manage to help here pale in in the overall scheme as the sale numbers show. What a waste of hard earned money. NEVER buy retail VIP or not. It just isn't a deal (and that applies to all timeshare not just Wyndham).

 

[ronparise]

IMHO the resale price of 1M (or 1,000K) Points would be closer to $5K not $20K

MFT - Is your comma key broken ?

In which case, the argument against buying from the developer to get VIP status is even stronger

putting a real world face on this; I just contracted to buy 3,000,000 points at just under $3000 total purchase price incl closing and transfer fees..lets assume that a platinum VIP could enjoy the same level of vacation experiences with just 1,000,000 points

heres how costs break down

me vs Platinum VIP

points: 3mm vs 1mm
mf: $15000/yr vs $5000/yr
purchase price; $3000 vs $150000

So I will spend $10000 a year mf more than the VIP , but he spent $150000 for that "savings" In my simple way of looking at thinks thats a 15 year break even

But things are not that simple. If my choice is to buy a million points from the developer at $150000 or to buy 3 million points at $3000 and keep my $150000; I might invest the $150000 in a nice muni bond fund at 5% and make some of my maintenance fees that way. So at the end of 15years the VIP buyer in my example will have a million wyndham points and will have spent $75000 in mf . I will have my points that cost me $112500 in mf, but I will still have my $150000 in the bank.

so for the regular guy buying timeshares to enjoy vacations with his family. It does not make sense to buy Platinum VIP status .

If you like however, i can make what I think is a compelling argument to buy into Platinum VIP as part of a rental business, business plan..,

 

[lcml11]

In which case, the argument against buying from the developer to get VIP status is even stronger

putting a real world face on this; I just contracted to buy 3,000,000 points at just under $3000 total purchase price incl closing and transfer fees..lets assume that a platinum VIP could enjoy the same level of vacation experiences with just 1,000,000 points

heres how costs break down

me vs Platinum VIP

points: 3mm vs 1mm
mf: $15000/yr vs $5000/yr
purchase price; $3000 vs $150000

So I will spend $10000 a year mf more than the VIP , but he spent $150000 for that "savings" In my simple way of looking at thinks thats a 15 year break even

But things are not that simple. If my choice is to buy a million points from the developer at $150000 or to buy 3 million points at $3000 and keep my $150000; I might invest the $150000 in a nice muni bond fund at 5% and make some of my maintenance fees that way. So at the end of 15years the VIP buyer in my example will have a million wyndham points and will have spent $75000 in mf . I will have my points that cost me $112500 in mf, but I will still have my $150000 in the bank.

so for the regular guy buying timeshares to enjoy vacations with his family. It does not make sense to buy Platinum VIP status .

If you like however, i can make what I think is a compelling argument to buy into Platinum VIP as part or a rental business, business plan..,

Following up on Ron's post. Just went through E-Bay and found a combination of contracts for a little over 1 million points at Myrtle Beach and Smokey Mountain. Did not do the math, but about 1/3 Smokey Mountain, 2/3 Myrtle Beach. Found the following:

$1,196 in resort transfer fees
$161.50 approx. of current bids

Heck, this might be cheaper than one rental at Marti Gras for a week. Granted you would have to pay the maintance fees going forward.

If you are of a mind to duplicate my math. Go to E-Bay, search for timeshare wyndham. Add to your watch list those Smokey Mountain and Myrtle Beach contracts that are bid only or bid plus transfer fee. You will go over the 1 million mark using annual and bi-annual contracts.

Did not check for use year dates, however, some of these purchases may have the adjustment points tag along with them if one moved quick enough. An extra bonus to the point that it exists.

 

[jebloomquist]

It would be a plus if we could all agree....

It appears that Ron was entering his comments as I was composing this one.

“It would be a plus if we could all agree…” I think that all of the unimaginative, non-creative, non-negotiators, name-callers, and axe grinders should agree, but not everyone.

I have stated before that I have over 2 million VIP eligible points, and I paid under $80,000. The equivalent resale points considering my discounts and upgrades would be over 5 million points. The yearly maintenance fee difference is enormous.

Let’s look at it another way. Are you a good enough negotiator to get 1 million VIP points for $100,000? Say “yes” for argument. The equivalent point power from resale requires about 2.4 million points at say a $5/1000 resale price or a $12,000 purchase.

So, the purchase price difference is $88,000. A big amount, I agree.

But let’s now look at the yearly maintenance fees incurred at say $5/1000.

The 1 million VIP points have a maintenance fee of $5,000, whereas the 2.4 million resale points have a maintenance fee of $12,000 or a $7,000 difference.

The $88,000 difference in purchase price is made up in under 13 years. Plus, once VIP Platinum is reached, you can purchase resale and get VIP upgrades and discounts on the resales points as well.

So, if you add on another million resale points at $5,000 to the VIP and 2.4 million at $12,000 to the resale for equivalent user power, you have now spent $105,000 versus $24,000. The difference now in purchasing prices is $81,000. The maintenance fees are $10,000 and $24,000 respectively, or a difference of $14,000 per year. The $81,000 purchase difference is made up in less than 6 years. Get 3 million VIP versus 7.2 million resale and the payback is only 4 years.

Think small if you must. Name call if you will. Just leave the creative, imaginative, negotiators alone.

Jim

 

[lcml11]

It appears that Ron was entering his comments as I was composing this one.

“It would be a plus if we could all agree…” I think that all of the unimaginative, non-creative, non-negotiators, name-callers, and axe grinders should agree, but not everyone.

I have stated before that I have over 2 million VIP eligible points, and I paid under $80,000. The equivalent resale points considering my discounts and upgrades would be over 5 million points. The yearly maintenance fee difference is enormous.

Let’s look at it another way. Are you a good enough negotiator to get 1 million VIP points for $100,000? Say “yes” for argument. The equivalent point power from resale requires about 2.4 million points at say a $5/1000 resale price or a $12,000 purchase.

So, the purchase price difference is $88,000. A big amount, I agree.

But let’s now look at the yearly maintenance fees incurred at say $5/1000.

The 1 million VIP points have a maintenance fee of $5,000, whereas the 2.4 million resale points have a maintenance fee of $12,000 or a $7,000 difference.

The $88,000 difference in purchase price is made up in under 13 years. Plus, once VIP Platinum is reached, you can purchase resale and get VIP upgrades and discounts on the resales points as well.

So, if you add on another million resale points at $5,000 to the VIP and 2.4 million at $12,000 to the resale for equivalent user power, you have now spent $105,000 versus $24,000. The difference now in purchasing prices is $81,000. The maintenance fees are $10,000 and $24,000 respectively, or a difference of $14,000 per year. The $81,000 purchase difference is made up in less than 6 years. Get 3 million VIP versus 7.2 million resale and the payback is only 4 years.

Think small if you must. Name call if you will. Just leave the creative, imaginative, negotiators alone.

Jim

Well said.

 

[timeos2]

And you prove my point that 95%+ of all buyers wouldn't want or benefit from even your most optimistic way to "save" by spending (and wasting) tens of thousands that are far more valuable n your pocket rather than Wyndhams.

Not arguing with your math (although it makes many dubious assumptions) but saying it simply doesn't matter or apply to the vast majority of owners/potential buyers. Few if any want over 1 million annual points for personal use. The <5% more than covers those rare exceptions.

 

[ronparise]

It appears that Ron was entering his comments as I was composing this one.

“It would be a plus if we could all agree…” I think that all of the unimaginative, non-creative, non-negotiators, name-callers, and axe grinders should agree, but not everyone.

I have stated before that I have over 2 million VIP eligible points, and I paid under $80,000. The equivalent resale points considering my discounts and upgrades would be over 5 million points. The yearly maintenance fee difference is enormous.

Let’s look at it another way. Are you a good enough negotiator to get 1 million VIP points for $100,000? Say “yes” for argument. The equivalent point power from resale requires about 2.4 million points at say a $5/1000 resale price or a $12,000 purchase.

So, the purchase price difference is $88,000. A big amount, I agree.

But let’s now look at the yearly maintenance fees incurred at say $5/1000.

The 1 million VIP points have a maintenance fee of $5,000, whereas the 2.4 million resale points have a maintenance fee of $12,000 or a $7,000 difference.

The $88,000 difference in purchase price is made up in under 13 years. Plus, once VIP Platinum is reached, you can purchase resale and get VIP upgrades and discounts on the resales points as well.

So, if you add on another million resale points at $5,000 to the VIP and 2.4 million at $12,000 to the resale for equivalent user power, you have now spent $105,000 versus $24,000. The difference now in purchasing prices is $81,000. The maintenance fees are $10,000 and $24,000 respectively, or a difference of $14,000 per year. The $81,000 purchase difference is made up in less than 6 years. Get 3 million VIP versus 7.2 million resale and the payback is only 4 years.

Think small if you must. Name call if you will. Just leave the creative, imaginative, negotiators alone.

Jim

And of course, if you are doing this to provide inventory for a rental business, the guest certificates come into play. A million plus VIP points will give 30 guest certs. Thats another $3000 a year to factor into your break even calculations

 

[Rent_Share]

but I rented over 2 million points, and would bet that the amount booked would have been close to 5 million points

I just contracted to buy 3,000,000 points at just under $3000 total ..,

At these levels you comments have no relevance to my purpose of being on this board and have become braggadocios,

Back on ignore, added to ignore

 

[MFT]

At these levels you comments have no relevance to my purpose of being on this board and have become braggadocios,

Back on ignore, added to ignore

Bazinga! I still believe for the 95% Wyndham owners who use the points for their own use, and own less than 1 Mil points, VIP doesn't have financial advantages. Now, the MEGA-renters is a totally different thing, and I'm not going to argue with Jim and Ron on those points. But I am not a mega-renter... I just like my 2 - 4 weeks of vacation a year.

BTW: I did up an excel tool this morning, and unless like Jim stated, you get into the multi-million points, the savings really don't kick in, but you have to remember to factor in an interest return on the amount you saved purchasing resale.

Always enjoy the debates, and am agreeing with all the various views, as it fits what they do or need with their ownership.

 

[Sandy VDH]

Since I got my VIP Platinum with Fairfield acquired Fixed weeks converted to points and 2 PIC contracts with only a 160K purchase from Wyndham directly, it wasn't a bad deal for VIP Platinum in my books. Other may disagree but....

I did get VIP Platinum written into the contract and it has already been taken away, challenged and re-honored.

So adding more points to an already VIP Platinum account seems like a darn good idea.

 

[bnoble]

Most of the credible analyses I've seen on this question---i.e., those that at least include opportunity cost on invested capital---are at best a push, and are more often in favor of a resale purchase. Even then, the payoff horizon is so long that you are risking a lot assuming Wyndham won't change things...again.

And, that's not surprising. Sales has to pay for VIP benefits. It is very unlikely that, on average, a VIP purchaser is going to get more in the end than they are paying for.

That's not to say that those who have a VIP account should not enjoy it. But, if anyone is reading this thread trying to decide which way they go about a Wyndham purchase, the answer is almost certainly "buy resale". The exceptions are few and far between.

 

[ronparise]

At these levels you comments have no relevance to my purpose of being on this board and have become braggadocios,

Back on ignore, added to ignore

Jim and I have both tried to make the point that buying from Wyndham to get their VIP benefits is almost always a bad decision. but there might be exceptions

That we are adding a little personal experience to make our points is not bragging...its nothing more than personal experience

Just as we have more points than most , we also have more experience than most and I bet we have made more mistakes than most as well. I would think that if you read what we are posting, with a critical eye, our experience might teach you a thing or two..At least you wouldnt be tempted to repeat some of our mistakes.

 

[lcml11]

Bazinga! I still believe for the 95% Wyndham owners who use the points for their own use, and own less than 1 Mil points, VIP doesn't have financial advantages. Now, the MEGA-renters is a totally different thing, and I'm not going to argue with Jim and Ron on those points. But I am not a mega-renter... I just like my 2 - 4 weeks of vacation a year.

BTW: I did up an excel tool this morning, and unless like Jim stated, you get into the multi-million points, the savings really don't kick in, but you have to remember to factor in an interest return on the amount you saved purchasing resale.

Always enjoy the debates, and am agreeing with all the various views, as it fits what they do or need with their ownership.

Does anyone know about what percent of owners are VIP?