{UNLOCKED] Wyndham notice RE commercial use

[Grocheio]

I received a notice warning us that our account had been associated with commercial use and that is prohibited. Surely everyone rents their timeshares, which is all we have done. Any information on what they are doing here?

 

[Jan M.]

No not everyone rents their timeshares. In the governing documents there's wording that says our ownerships are for our own personal use and for the permitted users on our accounts.

These emails and certified letters have been going out since late winter/early spring 2021.

Some owners who've gotten them and continued to do what Wyndham judged to be more renting are now blocked from adding guest names to any reservations. For 90 days but we've also heard for 6 months.

At the same time last year the Owner Priority lists started and are expected to continue.

All this is being done to suppress renting because previous measures proved ineffective. Next month we will see more measures instituted.

Of course renting through Extra Holidays is still permitted. Wyndham has made some changes to EH to make it better for owners.

 

[HitchHiker71]

There are several threads here on the Wyndham forum about this topic already, here's a link to one:

Does anyone have a copy of the recent email Wyndham sent to owners alleging commercial use violations?

All, I'm continuing to pursue the issue that came up a few weeks ago whereby certain Wyndham owners started receiving emails alleging commercial use - along with a supporting attachment of the formal letter - and a certified letter sent to the owners in question. I'm posting an image copy of...

tugbbs.com

Here's a link to search results for commercial use for reference and review:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/search/366915/?q=commercial+use&t=post&c[child_nodes]=1&c[nodes][0]=47&c[title_only]=1&o=date

 

[rickandcindy23]

I received a notice warning us that our account had been associated with commercial use and that is prohibited. Surely everyone rents their timeshares, which is all we have done. Any information on what they are doing here?

Just because your salesperson said it was okay, that doesn't mean it's okay. Think of the salesperson as a liar and Wyndham as the angelic company trying to make sure owners get to stay in their own resorts.

It's tough, but you gotta do it. And you have to stop renting because Wyndham is not going to take that competition for their rental business.

I hate Wyndham, just so you know.

 

[troy12n]

Step 1: stop renting
Step 2: ... that's it, just stop renting

And no, "not everyone rents their timeshares"... only a very small minority of owners do. It goes against their terms of service, so just stop doing it if you don't want to continue receiving these types of letters and potentially get your account frozen

 

[lost patience]

@Jan M. "Next month we will see more measures instituted. " I did not see any additional restrictions. What have I missed?

 

[b2bailey]

I don't have a horse in this race -- but I do remember times I was told during presentations that an owner could choose to rent their units "to help offset" maintenance fees. Is that considered commercial use?

 

[paxsarah]

I don't have a horse in this race -- but I do remember times I was told during presentations that an owner could choose to rent their units "to help offset" maintenance fees. Is that considered commercial use?

If it's not through Extra Holidays, it seems that Wyndham is now considering any outside rentals as commercial.

 

[rickandcindy23]

If it's not through Extra Holidays, it seems that Wyndham is now considering any outside rentals as commercial.

Meaning they want the monopoly on rentals. And their rentals are a risk for owners. You can reserve something, list it with Extra Holidays, and the guest could cancel 24 hours ahead and you get nothing. And Wyndham makes most of the money.

I hope Wyndham owners rise up against Wyndham, but they will not do that.

 

[troy12n]

I don't have a horse in this race -- but I do remember times I was told during presentations that an owner could choose to rent their units "to help offset" maintenance fees. Is that considered commercial use?

I definitely agree that certain salespeople used this tactic to get sales.

We all know the salespeople lie and will say whatever they want to make a sale

We all know that what the salespeople say does not matter, only what's in the contract. And the contract has had reference to "not for commercial purposes" for quite a long time, it's also been in the user directory.

As owners, and especially as TUG users, since we know the salespeople lie, we can't hide behind "well, the salespeople said it was ok" excuse... we know better, and any of you actually trying to feign ignorance on this topic are being disingenuous.

There are a handful of people on TUG who probably quit their jobs and made enough to support themselves by doing this. At the expense of other owners. Some of us are extremely glad that Wyndham is/has put an end to this.

At the expense of a couple of you... tough luck.

 

[b2bailey]

I was thinking about the Wyndham vs. Ron fiasco a few years back.
He was very discrete -- nondisclosure agreement? -- but it was evident they did not approve of his business model. I don't know how many others were affected -- but it seemed evident that Wyndham would find a way to shut it down. How many years ago was it?

 

[rickandcindy23]

Step 1: stop renting
Step 2: ... that's it, just stop renting

And no, "not everyone rents their timeshares"... only a very small minority of owners do. It goes against their terms of service, so just stop doing it if you don't want to continue receiving these types of letters and potentially get your account frozen

There are a LOT OF TIMESHARES for rent on Redweek and go-koala.com. You are living in denial on this one. Wyndham stopped rentals, yes, but other companies are fine with rentals so far. There are others who have slowed rentals, but no other company has waged war against owners like Wyndham has.

And maybe when you have to lie TO GET SALES, the product is not worth the paper it's written on, which is true, because I have contracts I am giving away and no takers. My fees are about the same as CWA on my Fairfield Bay, which I have listed under Bargain Deals.

 

[Jan M.]

@Jan M. "Next month we will see more measures instituted. " I did not see any additional restrictions. What have I missed?

They are going to add online tracking to prevent being able to add a guest name to any reservations at resorts/dates on the owner priority lists once we've used our two exceptions. This will prevent what some owners have been doing. They've been adding guest names at the last minute to get around the lists.

We've seen some owners saying they've received "the letter" when you wouldn't think they should have gotten it. I suspect that in some cases what triggered them getting a letter was adding a guest name the day of check in. Some got a second letter and are suspended for several months from being able to put a guest name on any reservation.

I have no expectation whatsoever that tracking the two exceptions to the priority lists will function well. I've said this before but it bears repeating. When this feature goes live next month owners should add guest names to any reservations in the priority lists as soon as possible. Even if they will be staying there themselves at the same time as their guests. When the system screws up as we all should expect it will, hopefully owner care will be able to assist when this happens. But if owners leave it until last minute the likelihood of getting help won't be as good. You're more likely to get the too bad, so sad response.

 

[paxsarah]

As owners, and especially as TUG users, since we know the salespeople lie, we can't hide behind "well, the salespeople said it was ok" excuse... we know better

Much as it pains me to agree given the source, I've been thinking this for a long time and it really is true. There's also a difference between a (unusually candid) salesperson of yesteryear saying, "This is something you can do with the system as it works now," be it cancel/rebook, leveraging resale points with VIP for rentals, the double-counted biennial contracts, etc., versus "This is a benefit of ownership." It was "ok" at the time because the system allowed it and nobody at Wyndham was stopping it at the time. Those salespeople didn't know what Wyndham would do a year or ten down the road. And we all know better that if Wyndham explicitly states they can essentially change the written elements of the program at any time, certainly they can change/eliminate the unwritten ones.

 

[CO skier]

There are others who have slowed rentals, but no other company has waged war against owners like Wyndham has.

2016 - "Diamond Resorts Rental Cease and Desist Order".

Diamond Resorts Rental Cease and Desist Orders

Has anyone in this forum received a Cease and Desist order from Diamond Resorts prohibiting rentals? If you have received such a letter and have an older contract with Diamond or Sunterra that allows rentals, please send me an email or comment on this post.

tugbbs.com

It appears Wyndham is following Diamond Resorts' lead.

Interval International and RCI prohibit rentals of exchange weeks. II pursues violators more agressively than RCI.

 

[HitchHiker71]

There are a LOT OF TIMESHARES for rent on Redweek and go-koala.com. You are living in denial on this one. Wyndham stopped rentals, yes, but other companies are fine with rentals so far. There are others who have slowed rentals, but no other company has waged war against owners like Wyndham has.

And maybe when you have to lie TO GET SALES, the product is not worth the paper it's written on, which is true, because I have contracts I am giving away and no takers. My fees are about the same as CWA on my Fairfield Bay, which I have listed under Bargain Deals.

I'd surmise that Wyndham probably has more rental volume than most other timeshare entities as a general rule - but that's just my sense of things based upon feedback I've seen from other timeshare owners posting here on TUG and on other forums that I moderate/admin. I don't have any hard data that proves this assertion to be clear.

So it's relative with Wyndham I think. We still see quite a few Wyndham rental postings on the FB groups for example. So while Wyndham is certainly targeting what they view as commercial renting activities - it's relative at the same time - at least on some level. From what I've observed, there does seem to be a link between advertising rentals and being identified as having engaged in commercial rentals. I would love to know, for example, if someone who only rents through points managers such as Koala - and has never advertised any rentals on any public forums - have actually been tagged and have received commercial use warnings from Wyndham.

I'm sure as @Jan M. mentioned that Wyndham is also watching other metrics such as applying GCs same day or the day before a reservation in an attempt to skirt the rules for priority blackout dates - but this is simply not going to be possible once the changes that have been announced are put in place to proactively prevent GCs from being used outright via the website.

 

[tschwa2]

Bluegreen has also been sending out the letters for a few years now but have started to go after those with just a few rentals per year if they are publicly advertising.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Meaning they want the monopoly on rentals. And their rentals are a risk for owners. You can reserve something, list it with Extra Holidays, and the guest could cancel 24 hours ahead and you get nothing. And Wyndham makes most of the money.

I hope Wyndham owners rise up against Wyndham, but they will not do that.

I think that part of the reason Wyndham is discouraging direct owner based rentals and pointing owners toward EH is because EH charges much higher prices than most non-commercial owners do. Most owners that rent occasionally and aren't running a commercial rental business only charge enough to cover their MFs typically. Sometimes a bit more sometimes a bit less. EH charges significantly higher prices in comparison. This is an important point to make - because if Wyndham charges significantly more - you get 60% of that significantly higher price point when using EH. So even if EH only rents a portion of your allotment (and EH is making improvements for owners who rent through them), most owners are likely to make the same if not a bit more using EH as opposed to renting only to cover their MFs for example. Let's run a quick comparison for sake of argument. Let's say I grab a week for 210k points and submit it to EH vs direct. Let's say I'm charging $7/1000 were I to rent direct. Let's also assume EH only rents 5/7 days, at $20/1000.

EH: $20/1000 * 5 days @ 30k points per day = 150k points = $3000 *0.6 = $1800
Direct: $7/1000 * 7 days = 210k points = $1470

Using EH renting only a portion of the reservation - the owner renting occasionally actually comes out ahead. If we discount the EH pricing down from $20/1000 - the breakeven would have to come down to $16.33/1000 through EH to match the $7/1000 that the owner charged directly. Just one anecdotal example of course. EH isn't as bad as many people make it out to be when we look at it pragmatically. EH is really more similar to a points manager like Koala in this respect.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Bluegreen has also been sending out the letters for a few years now but have started to go after those with just a few rentals per year if they are publicly advertising.

Another bottom-of-the-barrel product. Hilton cracked down slightly, but they haven't been forceful. Wyndham is using its power to hurt competition from owners. That is the truth. They could be violating the Sherman anti-trust act, but who wants to go after a big company like Wyndham but a few lawyers who are in it for themselves.

 

[bnoble]

They could be violating the Sherman anti-trust act

They might be doing something that is legally actionable, but it is neither through collusion with competitors nor as a result of market power.

 

[aams]

@HitchHiker71 Just wondering how is renting through points manager such as Koala any different from Wyndham's perspective? if I am reading the post correctly, it is suggesting that going thru points manager aka Koala is safer way to rent? Just curious how and why?

Thanks
Amit

I'd surmise that Wyndham probably has more rental volume than most other timeshare entities as a general rule - but that's just my sense of things based upon feedback I've seen from other timeshare owners posting here on TUG and on other forums that I moderate/admin. I don't have any hard data that proves this assertion to be clear.

So it's relative with Wyndham I think. We still see quite a few Wyndham rental postings on the FB groups for example. So while Wyndham is certainly targeting what they view as commercial renting activities - it's relative at the same time - at least on some level. From what I've observed, there does seem to be a link between advertising rentals and being identified as having engaged in commercial rentals. I would love to know, for example, if someone who only rents through points managers such as Koala - and has never advertised any rentals on any public forums - have actually been tagged and have received commercial use warnings from Wyndham.

I'm sure as @Jan M. mentioned that Wyndham is also watching other metrics such as applying GCs same day or the day before a reservation in an attempt to skirt the rules for priority blackout dates - but this is simply not going to be possible once the changes that have been announced are put in place to proactively prevent GCs from being used outright via the website.

 

[Pink_Warrior]

I think that the mid-October update in part is designed TO hit the point managers. Many of them (though I think not Koala) log in to owners' accounts and book the reservations as well as enter the GC.

But with the multi-factor authentification, if every time you log in to Wyndham you need a code via text or email, that will at least slow them down or at least frustrate both them and their owners. Of course EVERYBODY will be frustrated. How many times does the system require a new log in just out of the blue?

 

[paxsarah]

@HitchHiker71 Just wondering how is renting through points manager such as Koala any different from Wyndham's perspective? if I am reading the post correctly, it is suggesting that going thru points manager aka Koala is safer way to rent? Just curious how and why?

I think the main thing is that on Facebook there's usually an easy trail between the owner, their real name, and the dates and location they're renting out, and often the guest's real name as well. On Koala that would all be obscured. So not that Wyndham condones Koala over any other means of offering rentals, but that there's an opacity with Koala that Wyndham seems not to have bothered to crack at this point.

 

[CO skier]

I think that the mid-October update in part is designed TO hit the point managers. Many of them (though I think not Koala) log in to owners' accounts and book the reservations as well as enter the GC.

But with the multi-factor authentification, if every time you log in to Wyndham you need a code via text or email, that will at least slow them down or at least frustrate both them and their owners. Of course EVERYBODY will be frustrated. How many times does the system require a new log in just out of the blue?

I am under the impression that owners must turn over their log-in credentials to the points managers. If that is true, the points managers could and would change the email contact to their email address and receive the code via email.

If I were a points manager, that is how I would run my business and that is what would be in my contract with those for whom I would manage their account.

Wyndham recently converted WorldMark to MFA. I have had to use a code only once -- when the website system changed months and months ago.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I am under the impression that owners must turn over their log-in credentials to the points managers. If that is true, the points managers could and would change the email contact to their email address and receive the code via email.

If I were a points manager, that is how I would run my business and that is what would be in my contract with those for whom I would manage their account.

Wyndham recently converted WorldMark to MFA. I have had to use a code only once -- when the website system changed months and months ago.

That is not how Koala works for example. Their system doesn’t require any owner to give their login credentials. Koala simply serves as a broker between the seller and the buyer for requested vacations. I know a few other pints managers who take the same approach that Koala does just using private FB groups to facilitate the process instead of a website. Having to hand over creds, while popular in the past, has become an outdated concept nowadays.


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