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Understanding how Wyndham works

talkamotta

TUG Review Crew: Expert
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I'm editing this thread....I'm so sorry. I didn't explain myself well the first time so some of you have been rightfully warning me of paying too much for the eBay listing. the listing price is $499. The $2232 or $2227 is the maintenance fees so my example is misleading. My example.....ebay has a bid going right now for Oceanside San Deigo $2232 maintenance fees for 413000 pts. Almost $5.41 per thousand. So I go to wyndham and see that a 2 bedroom Prime (which is all year long but 6 weeks) and to stay there will be 238,000 points. So I do the math 238x5.41=$1,287 to stay there the week. $184 a day or 1 bedroom is $1098 or $157 a night. My idea of thinking.....Im staying in a very nice timeshare with a kitchen, etc paying less money than I would if I rented a decent hotel room. This example works for me. This is a more expensive area so the cost is higher...just like Hawaii, new orleans, San francisco, etc will be higher than others.

The initial cost is minimum. So how do you justify going for VIP? Don't you have to buy points from Wyndham? How do you work the system for a better deal. Am I thinking correctly or way off base.
 
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Don't forget to add in monthly/yearly maintenance fees. Resale points do not count towards VIP. Personally we don't think VIP is worth it esp if you have to go into debt to purchase. Others may disagree. That is a personal choice/decision.
 
LOOK on the map as to where Wyndham resorts are and then look up the points needed for the places & times you would be using time at those resorts. Wyndham's older resorts have less points required for PRIME weeks but the MFs are higher due to 'age costs' at those resorts. Wyndham owners USE the per points MF and then multiple by the points NEEDED to book that Week and UNIT plus if you have to add on Reservation Transaction (RT) and Housekeeping (HK) FEES plus a GUEST CERTIFICATE for a non-listed checkin 'guest'.

And remember, short stays cost the same HK and RT fees as a full week. And MOST Wyndham resorts have their 7 days check in days as FRI and SAT with a few (very few) on Sunday. Yes, you can book a Wed to Wed 7 night stay ... but you MIGHT have to move during your stay and the 2nd set of HKs apply. Yes, you can book a 4night/3night stay, but then RTs and HKs apply because it is 2 vacation books (a 2 Guest Certificates)

TRUELY, learn a LOT before buying anything timeshare ... but esp if it is Wyndham points with many fees and RULES.
 
Yes, to achieve VIP status, you would have to spend a lot of money buying points from Wyndham. I think most people on this forum would say that if you are starting with zero points, spending the money to achieve VIP status would not be prudent.

I think your logic is sound. For the same money, you'll be way more comfortable in a timeshare unit than in a hotel.
 
My example.....ebay has a bid going right now for Oceanside San Deigo $2232 for 413000 pts. Almost $5.41 per thousand. So I go to wyndham and see that a 2 bedroom Prime (which is all year long but 6 weeks) and to stay there will be 238,000 points. So I do the math 238x5.41=$1,287 to stay there the week. $184 a day or 1 bedroom is $1098 or $157 a night. My idea of thinking.....Im staying in a very nice timeshare with a kitchen, etc paying less money than I would if I rented a decent hotel room. This example works for me. This is a more expensive area so the cost is higher...just like Hawaii, new orleans, San francisco, etc will be higher than others.

The initial cost is minimum. So how do you justify going for VIP? Don't you have to buy points from Wyndham? How do you work the system for a better deal. Am I thinking correctly or way off base.

I think your thinking is perfect...

As far as getting a better deal on the purchase, you might call the seller directly and negotiate a buy it now deal.. If you bid, determine how much you are willing to pay... and bid no more than that... I always used a sniping service
 
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Ron originally posted that you needed to consider your Maintenance fees and acquisition cost together and stated that he uses a five year average to get an accurate fee for his costs. That is solid advice, though I consider things differently. Either way you need to consider all of your cost and as Ron's revised post says - work on that purchase price!

Here are my thoughts and observations from someone who bought everything from ebay and backed into VIP along the way without additional purchases

@$6 / 1000 points as an average annual maintenance fee $2,478
$2,232 acquisition cost
$299 transfer fee

roughly $5,000 total cost of year one usage.

So your first year's cost of use would be high @ $12.10 per thousand points needed including both the acquisition and hte first year maintenance fee.

So your rental of 1 week from your example would cost you: $2,879 of $411 per night.

In this case I would just rent from ebay or even pay the extraholidays cost. I'm not saying putting it all in year one works, or even a 5 year average as ron said. Either way you need to consider that your cost really has less to do with the acquisition cost than it does the annual fees which you didn't calculate at all. I just don't consider acquisition cost in my rental usage cost.

Here is what I do - right or wrong - I ignore the cost of acquisition because I know if I buy it on ebay I can sell it on ebay and get some, all or more money back when I decide to move on. At that point I will rectify my profit or loss. I only factor in the maintenance cost for my cost of usage. For example I am holding nearly 3 million points I collected during the recession with a total acquisition cost of $8,400 in 8 contract I know will sell for more than I paid. So when I travel I only consider my average MF for the year divided by the number of points I am suing (remember it is based on per thousand).

The longer you hold, the less the impact acquisition cost will have on your travels and depending on where you bought and where the market is when you sell you might make a profit but you would hope to get out even. That is why you need to look at the average cost per k of sales over the last x months. For me - I pay cash so I only have lost opportunity. If you were financing the purchase then you would also factor in interest.

I do think these things are important to know, so in your case I would look at two things.
1. Am I paying the right acquisition cost per thousand. If you buy right you can sell right.
2. How much will my MF be? Are there lower cost MF resorts out there which will do the same job OR do I want a better resale price from a premium resort (this is not always true as some lower MF resorts demand a premium because they are lower MF though not always true).

My observation of your situation is this:

@ $6 /1000 total annual fees I will pay $2,478 per year. Your 1 week rental at 238k points would cost (238 * 6) $1,428 or 204 per night and when you sell your ownership you will either make money or lose money. If you sell it for what you paid then it only cost you MF. If you make money because you buy it right, well then you will actually reduce the cost I listed here but I wouldn't count on that at this time in the market. I would just look to get out even when you do.

Good luck and I hope my perspective and experience helps
 
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And yes use a sniper to bid as ron suggested!!! Very good advice there too
 
There is no Maintenance fee in his calculation. The $5.41 is his division of the acquisition cost against the points (unless he is typing in secret code which I cannot decipher).
I believe the $2232 is the annual maintenance fees, at least based on the 413k Oceanside listing I currently see on eBay.
 
Here are my thoughts and observations from someone who bought everything from ebay and backed into VIP along the way without additional purchases

How did you back into VIP without any developer purchases? I didn't think this was possible.
 
My example.....ebay has a bid going right now for Oceanside San Deigo $2232 for 413000 pts. Almost $5.41 per thousand. So I go to wyndham and see that a 2 bedroom Prime (which is all year long but 6 weeks) and to stay there will be 238,000 points. So I do the math 238x5.41=$1,287 to stay there the week. $184 a day or 1 bedroom is $1098 or $157 a night. My idea of thinking.....Im staying in a very nice timeshare with a kitchen, etc paying less money than I would if I rented a decent hotel room. This example works for me. This is a more expensive area so the cost is higher...just like Hawaii, new orleans, San francisco, etc will be higher than others.

The initial cost is minimum. So how do you justify going for VIP? Don't you have to buy points from Wyndham? How do you work the system for a better deal. Am I thinking correctly or way off base.

IME the best and most inexpensive way to obtain VIP is via PIC. That's what I chose to do. Still WAY more expensive than resale though. We book the vast majority of our vacations as long weekend getaways within the 60 day booking windows during non-prime seasons, so the 50% points booking discounts will eventually pay off vs resale over the long term (15+ years), at least in part.
 
There is no Maintenance fee in his calculation. The $5.41 is his division of the acquisition cost against the points (unless he is typing in secret code which I cannot decipher).

You're right. I thought $5.41 was his cost per 1,000 points for maintenance fees. It's not.

But, I'm happy to see that paxsarah thought the same thing.
 
You're right. I thought $5.41 was his cost per 1,000 points for maintenance fees. It's not.

But, I'm happy to see that paxsarah thought the same thing.

It is. The eBay listing in question has no bids with a starting bid of $499, and an annual MF of $2226 (not exactly the $2232 in the OP for some reason, but there are no other active or recently completed listing with this resort/points combination). $5.39/k.
 
How did you back into VIP without any developer purchases? I didn't think this was possible.


I did that too, and I posted about it not long ago...the important thing to know is that wyndham has closed the loophole I used
 
Ron originally posted that you needed to consider your Maintenance fees and acquisition cost together and stated that he uses a five year average to get an accurate fee for his costs. That is solid advice, though I consider things differently. Either way you need to consider all of your cost and as Ron's revised post says - work on that purchase price!

Here are my thoughts and observations from someone who bought everything from ebay and backed into VIP along the way without additional purchases

@$6 / 1000 points as an average annual maintenance fee $2,478
$2,232 acquisition cost
$299 transfer fee

roughly $5,000 total cost of year one usage.

So your first year's cost of use would be high @ $12.10 per thousand points needed including both the acquisition and hte first year maintenance fee.

So your rental of 1 week from your example would cost you: $2,879 of $411 per night.

In this case I would just rent from ebay or even pay the extraholidays cost. I'm not saying putting it all in year one works, or even a 5 year average as ron said. Either way you need to consider that your cost really has less to do with the acquisition cost than it does the annual fees which you didn't calculate at all. I just don't consider acquisition cost in my rental usage cost.

Here is what I do - right or wrong - I ignore the cost of acquisition because I know if I buy it on ebay I can sell it on ebay and get some, all or more money back when I decide to move on. At that point I will rectify my profit or loss. I only factor in the maintenance cost for my cost of usage. For example I am holding nearly 3 million points I collected during the recession with a total acquisition cost of $8,400 in 8 contract I know will sell for more than I paid. So when I travel I only consider my average MF for the year divided by the number of points I am suing (remember it is based on per thousand).

The longer you hold, the less the impact acquisition cost will have on your travels and depending on where you bought and where the market is when you sell you might make a profit but you would hope to get out even. That is why you need to look at the average cost per k of sales over the last x months. For me - I pay cash so I only have lost opportunity. If you were financing the purchase then you would also factor in interest.

I do think these things are important to know, so in your case I would look at two things.
1. Am I paying the right acquisition cost per thousand. If you buy right you can sell right.
2. How much will my MF be? Are there lower cost MF resorts out there which will do the same job OR do I want a better resale price from a premium resort (this is not always true as some lower MF resorts demand a premium because they are lower MF though not always true).

My observation of your situation is this:

@ $6 /1000 total annual fees I will pay $2,478 per year. Your 1 week rental at 238k points would cost (238 * 6) $1,428 or 204 per night and when you sell your ownership you will either make money or lose money. If you sell it for what you paid then it only cost you MF. If you make money because you buy it right, well then you will actually reduce the cost I listed here but I wouldn't count on that at this time in the market. I would just look to get out even when you do.

Good luck and I hope my perspective and experience helps



I removed my original post because i realized that the $2232 was maintenance fees, not purchase price
 
Sorry it was late. I was looking further up in the ad. I was trying to see if my way of thinking was correct in relation to points to cost of resort stay. For me the cost of staying in a timeshare nearly always has more advantages than a hotel. There are things to consider when deciding which system, trading company or timeshare to go through. To understand the cost of the points helps me decide where my best value in which timeshare to book. This of course, is personal opinion. For example if I had the option of staying at Welk in Escondido 2 bedroom or in this timeshare. Btw I still have weeks. Matter of choice.

I own pahio KaEoKai 2 bedroom I bought it when Pahio owned it. Of course on eBay for $600. When I look in Wyndham chart the cost of the maintenance fees or points is equal to what I pay. But if I deposit my 2 bedroom lock off into rci and split it I get 60 tpu's. Which gets me 3 weeks. You have to pay trading fees....ouch. But the good trade value is still very good.

These kind of thoughts are kind of the timeshare game but it also makes me want to drink.
 
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LOOK on the map as to where Wyndham resorts are and then look up the points needed for the places & times you would be using time at those resorts. Wyndham's older resorts have less points required for PRIME weeks but the MFs are higher due to 'age costs' at those resorts. Wyndham owners USE the per points MF and then multiple by the points NEEDED to book that Week and UNIT plus if you have to add on Reservation Transaction (RT) and Housekeeping (HK) FEES plus a GUEST CERTIFICATE for a non-listed checkin 'guest'.

And remember, short stays cost the same HK and RT fees as a full week. And MOST Wyndham resorts have their 7 days check in days as FRI and SAT with a few (very few) on Sunday. Yes, you can book a Wed to Wed 7 night stay ... but you MIGHT have to move during your stay and the 2nd set of HKs apply. Yes, you can book a 4night/3night stay, but then RTs and HKs apply because it is 2 vacation books (a 2 Guest Certificates)

TRUELY, learn a LOT before buying anything timeshare ... but esp if it is Wyndham points with many fees and RULES.

So I'm another newbie seriously considering Wyndham. I am aware of maintenance fees, but not familiar with the Reservation Transaction fees and Housekeeping Fees. I have have X number of points and use them to book a week at a Wyndham resort, and I am all paid up on my maintenance fees, do I have to pay anything else?
 
In simplest terms, 1 RT (reservation transaction fee) is due for every reservation you make as well as some other transactions you make through the program. For the purposes of this post, let’s just leave it there. The fee is $19 per RT. When you own, you are given 1 free RT each year for every 77,000 points you own. In real life, if you can plan your desired vacations early enough, you will likely have enough free RT’s. If you change your mind a lot, and cancel reservations a lot, you will incur this charge on every new reservation you make. Not on cancellations, though. My first year I burned through about 4 extra RT’s. First I booked a 4 night stay in a 1 Bedroom Deluxe. Then I decided I wanted an extra night. Well in Wyndham you cannot just add or subtract a night, you have to cancel the rez, and make a new one. And then after that, I found an additional rez I wanted, but I needed a few more points, so I cancelled the Deluxe and booked a Suite. Boom—Another RT!. Just a small real world example of how things work.

Housekeeping Fee credits work like this: You get 1 HF for each 1000 points each year. If you use them all up and still have enough points to book another reservation, you will have to buy enough to cover that stay. In real life, if you use your points to book full week or almost full week vacations, you will probably not ever have to buy any additional. Additional HF’s are usually triggered by using your points for multiple stays of less than a full week.

The reason short stays will waste your HF’s is because you need the same amount of them for a 7 night stay or a 1 night stay. You need the same amount for a 14 night stay as for an 8 night stay. And you need more for a 2 bedroom than a 1 bedroom. And more for a 3 or 4 etc.

After a year or maybe 2 of using the system, you learn common sense ways to avoid wasting money on excess RT’s and HF’s. The issue is that you want to make your reservations as early as possible to get the best availability, but sometimes after that things come up that make you change your dates. If it happens a lot, you may have some of these extra fees, but honestly, over the course of my first two years of ownership, I don’t think I spent more than $150 for all the excess costs. In my third year, I have made all my bookings, and I don’t expect to have any additional costs.

One year, after making all the reservations I wanted, I ended up with some points left over near the end of the year, and I chose to make a reservation to use up the remaining points, and that incurred an additional RT and some additional HF’s, but it was small enough that really, who cares? An extra vacation is well worth it.

tl:dr If you use your points for full weeks or almost full weeks, and you don’t alter your reservations excessively, these fees are a non issue.
 
In simplest terms, 1 RT (reservation transaction fee) is due for every reservation you make as well as some other transactions you make through the program. For the purposes of this post, let’s just leave it there. The fee is $19 per RT. When you own, you are given 1 free RT each year for every 77,000 points you own. In real life, if you can plan your desired vacations early enough, you will likely have enough free RT’s. If you change your mind a lot, and cancel reservations a lot, you will incur this charge on every new reservation you make. Not on cancellations, though. My first year I burned through about 4 extra RT’s. First I booked a 4 night stay in a 1 Bedroom Deluxe. Then I decided I wanted an extra night. Well in Wyndham you cannot just add or subtract a night, you have to cancel the rez, and make a new one. And then after that, I found an additional rez I wanted, but I needed a few more points, so I cancelled the Deluxe and booked a Suite. Boom—Another RT!. Just a small real world example of how things work.

Housekeeping Fee credits work like this: You get 1 HF for each 1000 points each year. If you use them all up and still have enough points to book another reservation, you will have to buy enough to cover that stay. In real life, if you use your points to book full week or almost full week vacations, you will probably not ever have to buy any additional. Additional HF’s are usually triggered by using your points for multiple stays of less than a full week.

The reason short stays will waste your HF’s is because you need the same amount of them for a 7 night stay or a 1 night stay. You need the same amount for a 14 night stay as for an 8 night stay. And you need more for a 2 bedroom than a 1 bedroom. And more for a 3 or 4 etc.

After a year or maybe 2 of using the system, you learn common sense ways to avoid wasting money on excess RT’s and HF’s. The issue is that you want to make your reservations as early as possible to get the best availability, but sometimes after that things come up that make you change your dates. If it happens a lot, you may have some of these extra fees, but honestly, over the course of my first two years of ownership, I don’t think I spent more than $150 for all the excess costs. In my third year, I have made all my bookings, and I don’t expect to have any additional costs.

One year, after making all the reservations I wanted, I ended up with some points left over near the end of the year, and I chose to make a reservation to use up the remaining points, and that incurred an additional RT and some additional HF’s, but it was small enough that really, who cares? An extra vacation is well worth it.

tl:dr If you use your points for full weeks or almost full weeks, and you don’t alter your reservations excessively, these fees are a non issue.

Thanks! That is exactly the kind of info I was looking for, and in my case, I don't expect it to be an issue.
 
And MOST Wyndham resorts have their 7 days check in days as FRI and SAT with a few (very few) on Sunday.

I would say "SOME" Wyndham resorts may still have a hard and fast check in/check out date like this.

The May 2017 reservation system upgrade made it much easier to do mid-week check ins for seven nights. Without the need to book seven nights using two separate reservations and double the required HK points.
 
As far as justifying VIP, you’re probably not going to be able too. I tell people, if you are trying to justify the dollars and cents, it’s not going to add up. Just like buying a BMW over a basic model car would not add up, because they both do the exact same thing. They get you from point A to point B. The reason you buy the BMW is for the “experience”. The bells and whistles. Some of us want them, and some of us don’t care. That’s VIP in a nutshell. Some want the bells and whistles, others do not. Both do the same thing. Give you points to use at resorts. Some will start adding numbers and say, “Since I’m platinum VIP, I can get a reservation at 50% off. You have to pay double the points, which is twice the amount of maintenance fees. You cannot do that with resale, unless you already have VIP.” So if a resale person books a room at 100,000 points, the VIP can get the same room at a discounted rate. Platnium can get it at 50,000 points. The maintenance fees on 100,000 CWA points is $659. Since platnium only used 50,000 points, it only cost them $329.50. So they saved almost $330 on one reservation. Now, if a two bedroom cost 200,000 points, the CWA Maintenance fees on that would be $1,318. If a platnium books a one bedroom at 50% off, and upgrades to that two bedroom, it only cost them $329.50 for that reservation. A $988.50 savings.

The problem with that logic is, everyone’s travel lifestyle is different. I travel during prime which makes getting discounts and upgrades difficult. So both resale owner and I pay the same for that prime reservation, if I cannot get a discounted reservation. I get most my discounts and upgrades in high and low seasons. If a person was retired, they can travel during the off season and get a ton of discounted and upgraded reservations. Howeve, the cash value of those rooms are lower then prime season. How much is the cash value of that room, versus the money you spend on maintenance fees for the points you used for that room? Plus, every location is different. Some locations, you can save more money then others, when comparing cash costs. Some you don’t save at all. So it’s difficult to add the dollar savings because every situation is different.

The other problem with their logic is that you could invest that money and get a much bigger return then you would with the lodging savings you get. Even as resale. You spend a couple grand a year for maintenance fees. How much would that earn you in an IRA?

With all that said, what matters is what YOU think it’s worth. I use the term “perceived value” a lot when talking about whether VIP is worth it or not. Since monetary value is difficult to determine (because future usage and costs are hard to determine with any certainty), you shouldn’t use that as a sole factor in deciding whether to go VIP. To me, discounts and upgrades are bonuses. They are not the reason I decided to go Gold. I looked at the other benefits to determine if going Gold was worth it to me. To me, having the extended time to push points forward is valuable, because our vacation plans can change a lot. So if we have some people drop out, we may not need a room. If we don’t find that out until later in the year, I have to find an alternate option for that room or points. Having the extended time means I have the added option to move those points forward. The unlimited housekeeping credits is good for people who do a lot of short trips. It doesn’t matter if you stay 2 nights or 7. You use the same amount of housekeeping credits. If you only travel once or twice a year, it’s less likely you will run out of those and have to pay $2.25 per credit. The 10’s of thousands of dollars you pay for retail, can pay for a lot of housekeeping credits. Gold and platnium get unlimited reservation transaction credits. I think that’s helpful for VIPs who may cancel and rebook for the discounts and upgrades. I also like it because we can book our rooms early in the planning stages and cancel without losing anything, if we decide to go to a different resort. We can book that resort without paying an additional fee. For silver and non-vip, it’s $19 per reservations once you run out of reservation transaction credits. You get one “free” one every 77,000 points you own. Again, the 10’s of thousands you save by buying resale can pay for a lot of reservation transaction credits. Margaritaville access was another reason I went gold. Being gold gave me access to prime season and could book further out. Now, anyone can book prime season, however, I can still book earlier then silver and non-VIP. Again, the 10’s of thousands you save, could pay for a lot of margaritaville trips. The two RARP were important to me as well. Since we travel during prime, being able to book one month sooner then silver and non-VIP gives me better availability when booking. I can only do that twice a year though. Platnium gets four. Not everyone can plan 11 months out though, so that benefit would be worth,Essex to them. I haven’t decided if the mid-week clean and tidy that gold and platnium gets will be worth it to me. I’m on the fence on whether I want it at all.

As you can see, there are arguments and counter arguments for whether you should go VIP. What matters is what is valuable to you. There were non-VIP related reasons for buying points to begin with. One of them being, enrolling a PIC to replace a higher maintenance fee contract. You cannot enroll a week into PIC without a purchase. Since that would have put me close to Gold anyway, I went ahead and bought a few extra points to get me there. I also used the opportunity to trade Patriots place for National Harbor to reduce my fees even more. Even though the trade didn’t cost me anything extra (on top of what I was already spending), I would not have done the trade if I wasn’t already going to purchase. The lower maintence fees wouldn’t help make up for the added costs.
 
Converted fixed weeks ... the older Wyndham resorts ... will still 'live' on the Fri, Sat and some Sun checkin days of the week. Yes, you might NOW be able to book a Wed-Wed unit but most likely it will be a split reservation using 2 different units with the additional fees of HK and RT.
 
Yes, you might NOW be able to book a Wed-Wed unit but most likely it will be a split reservation using 2 different units with the additional fees of HK and RT.
I believe this is incorrect. As far as I know, the new system doesn’t deal in split reservations. I’m not speaking of a situation where an owner may make back to back reservations when they later decide to extend their stay, etc. - but the system will not create a split reservation initially.
 
Fixed week resorts? The majority of the Pompano Resorts were originally fixed week ... and many of the Prime Winter weeks are still used and resold there and other web sites as fixed week. ONLY Royal Vista in Pompano does NOT have underlying (and converted to points) fixed weeks,
 
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