Today is the day I hate Marriott Timeshares!

[SueDonJ]

Hi Sue.
Wow, a $9000 sewing machine? That must sting. The timeshare observation, though, has a large whiff of hindsight. Did you REALLY believe the money was gone the moment you bought the timeshare(s)? Did you REALLY ignore the rosy future painted by the salesperson, which made future gains in your "deeded real estate" appear inevitable? If so, I have to assume you'd do it all again right now, forking over those big bucks for beautiful future memories. Would you really?

While your underwater mortgage point has merit from a no regrets point of view, there is also the entirely likely scenario that you will, in time, emerge above water. In fact, it's guaranteed, as long a you keep making payments. Can you realistically say the same about your timeshare?

The sewing machine particularly stung because it's how I make my living. Don't get me wrong - we don't have to survive on my living, but in my line of work reputation means everything and that piece of crap machine did nothing to further develop a good reputation!

Honestly, no lie, going in to our first Marriott sales presentation we were armed with a copy of the latest "Timeshare Resales" mag and we had the benefit of timeshare knowledge that I'd learned from reading the disboards, TUG and other sites for a few years. Of course we couldn't have had any idea of just how much our investment dollars would devalue through the years, but when we bought we did know that there would be devaluation and virtually no chance of making money on the deal.

We luckily met with a sales rep who was knowledgeable and professional, and she didn't try to paint a rosy picture of ownership or financials. We bought during SW's construction phase and she correctly told us that Marriott would be increasing the prices for the various intervals when the resort build-out was complete. She had a chart that showed the prices for the different phases and build-out; SW's prices followed that chart as the years went on. (Although, we understood that they may not have, and watching Crystal Shores' prices a few years later we saw how/why resort development and price predictions might not happen as scheduled.) So at our sales presentation there was some variation of the old, "prices will only go up from here" sale hook, but it was true because it was the development phase. She didn't use the hook the way I've seen it reported on TUG, where some folks were told that timeshares appreciate like any other real estate. We asked about resale value and were told that Marriott isn't responsible for guaranteeing a particular value, and then shown where in the docs that's clearly spelled out. We asked about the possibility of Marriott taking back our Weeks at some point in the future, we were told that Marriott had a resale program but she couldn't guarantee that they would take our Weeks or how much we'd get if they did. The whole presentation was like that - we asked, she answered, she raved about her parents taking her and her siblings to Marriott timeshares when she was younger, we raved about how much we loved Hilton Head but didn't want to buy a vacation condo.

I swear, nothing was said in that meeting that has ever given me a reason to regret our purchases. A year later we asked her to find us a particular Barony week through Marriott Resales and told her we'd be looking at external resales at the same time. She called with one about six weeks later, the only resale I'd found in that time was about $1500 less. That was a no-brainer, we bought the Marriott Resale for the added MR-exchange option (and then pretty much made up that difference when we enrolled the 3 direct Weeks in the DC for only $695 instead of $1995.)

Over the years I've posted all this on TUG in bits and pieces where it fit the threads. I know I have this reputation here of being a Marriott apologist who will never, ever, EVER, NEVER NEVER NEVER! D - yes, that manically!) speak one bad word about Marriott. That isn't entirely true - I don't like when any Marriott reps misrepresent the product or don't take every opportunity to clear up misrepresentations or misconceptions whenever they occur. It drives me absolutely batty that Marriott doesn't allow an official TUG rep to participate on TUG, where it would be possible for them to put the product in the best possible light in front of folks who already love timeshares as well as folks who know nothing about them but are searching for info because they may be interested. It makes me bonkers that Marriott thinks of TUG as a nuisance when so many of us here contribute to make it so much more than that. But other than that, I will happily admit that I am and expect to remain a very happy Marriott timeshare owner. We have gotten from our timeshares everything that we were led to expect - both good and bad. I couldn't ask for more.

As far as buying in the future? Prior to the DC I'd said many times that if only Marriott would develop a system consisting of a marriage of their resorts with a Points system similar to DVC's that offered flexible stays and banking/borrowing options, I'd be in timeshare heaven. I enrolled in the DC because it gives my Weeks an option that closely resembles that DVC system. We haven't at all considered buying any more Weeks because we simply don't have time to use them. IF we ever get to the point where it might make sense to buy more, I will look closely at Marriott Trust Points. But I really don't envision that we'll ever be at that point, and if we are, buying Points won't be a slamdunk (the way a Week would have been) because I just don't understand the system well enough to buy in. I don't feel like it can be fully understood until we see how resale Trust Points are able to be transferred and used. I guess the answer is, I'm not completely against another direct purchase but I don't know enough about the product to buy now.

Gah, writing another novel ... bet you didn't expect that. Thanks for the chance, though, to rave about Marriott again. It's easy for me.

 

[OldPantry]

Honestly, no lie, going in to our first Marriott sales presentation we were armed with a copy of the latest "Timeshare Resales" mag and we had the benefit of timeshare knowledge that I'd learned from reading the disboards, TUG and other sites for a few years. Of course we couldn't have had any idea of just how much our investment dollars would devalue through the years, but when we bought we did know that there would be devaluation and virtually no chance of making money on the deal.

I know I have this reputation here of being a Marriott apologist who will never, ever, EVER, NEVER NEVER NEVER! D - yes, that manically!) speak one bad word about Marriott. That isn't entirely true -

OK, white flag time! I now believe you went into the deal with eyes wide open. You were also the lucky beneficiary of a totally honest and candid sales presentation. And, I assume, you've won the lottery a few times (kidding of course). I think my experience was for more typical: a presentation that was an artful combination of fact, misdirection and overwhelming detail about points scenarios that are, in retrospect, absolutely laughable.

If I had recorded the conversation, I'll bet they guy didn't actually "lie"; he just encouraged us to believe things that were, in retrospect, completely unrealistic. He uttered the words "deeded real estate" at least 30 times; he warned us of the risk of rising (retail) prices, painted rosy pictures of our great-grandchildren frolicking in the tropical sun for nearly free, and actively pooh-poohed the risk of rising maintenance fees ("of course they could go up, but ... "). It was our fault entirely, for hearing what we wanted to, and deep-sixing our normal skepticism. I would have (and have) done far better buying cars, but got lured out of my depth by those fabulous lagoons. All in all, though, I think a little resentment is justified.

Still, my daughter is at Ko Olina as I write, and having a fabulous time strolling the lagoons. So ... (insert consoling platitude here).

 

[SueDonJ]

OK, white flag time! I now believe you went into the deal with eyes wide open. You were also the lucky beneficiary of a totally honest and candid sales presentation. And, I assume, you've won the lottery a few times (kidding of course). I think my experience was for more typical: a presentation that was an artful combination of fact, misdirection and overwhelming detail about points scenarios that are, in retrospect, absolutely laughable.

If I had recorded the conversation, I'll bet they guy didn't actually "lie"; he just encouraged us to believe things that were, in retrospect, completely unrealistic. He uttered the words "deeded real estate" at least 30 times; he warned us of the risk of rising (retail) prices, painted rosy pictures of our great-grandchildren frolicking in the tropical sun for nearly free, and actively pooh-poohed the risk of rising maintenance fees ("of course they could go up, but ... "). It was our fault entirely, for hearing what we wanted to, and deep-sixing our normal skepticism. I would have (and have) done far better buying cars, but got lured out of my depth by those fabulous lagoons. All in all, though, I think a little resentment is justified.

Still, my daughter is at Ko Olina as I write, and having a fabulous time strolling the lagoons. So ... (insert consoling platitude here).

The type of sales presentation you had? If ours had started that way we would have walked out and never looked back. I knew they could happen that way but it's amazing to me that so many of them do go that way. They're exactly the kind of thing that I'm talking about when I say Marriott doesn't deserve any love when they behave a certain way. I am glad, though, that you and your family are still enjoying your vacations, that you haven't allowed that crappy experience to color all of your dealings with Marriott. We have that in common, at least, that we love our Marriott stays.

Now about the lottery ... I don't play it often but back when I worked in a local neighborhood office I'd stop on the way in a couple times a week to a convenience store for a cup of tea and a $5 scratch ticket. One morning I hit for $500 yay! so at lunch I bought another $5 ticket and stuck it in my pocketbook. After supper I remembered it was there and scratched it, yay! another $500 winner! That was the luckiest day of my life (if you're only counting money winnings.) But I held on to both tickets for about a week and it was the most nerve-wracking week - I thought for sure I'd lose them or somehow damage them or some other stupid thing would happen to make them not give me my winnings. Really, I don't know how winners of the gigantic lotteries don't lose their minds to paranoia! :hysterical: :hysterical:

 

[OldPantry]

Sorry, my edit, to clarifiy that I don't have great-grandchildren (or even grandchildren) yet caused a total dupe. Unintentional.

 

[m61376]

It is interesting how divergent the pictures different salespeople paint can be. Our experience, also at Ko'Olina, was similar to OldPantry's. We received a detailed explanation how we would break even in costs in 10-20 years and then basically have free vacations. It was clearly a monetary driven presentation, replete with real estate appreciation and the like. We were shown online all the properties we could easily trade our studio unit for, insinuating the trades were available practically just for the asking. He constantly touted the thousands of dollars we'd be saving in the long run.

Looking back even a month afterwards- after a crash course in Timeshare 101 from Tug- I could see that most of what the salesman said on the face was kinda true, except that what he left out clearly changed the picture. Ultimately, the only fiscally based analysis which made any dollars and cents sense to us was to buy resale, which we ultimately chose to do.

In reality, the only really truthful part of his presentation, which is often mocked here on Tug, is that ownership forces one to take vacations and that time spent with family and friends does create priceless memories. It sounded kitchy when he said it, but that is the one part of his presentation that really does ring true.

 

[EKniager]

Although I believe each sales rep has their own unique "style" and ethical line in the sand, my life experiences would cause me to believe that the buyers, i.e., us, listen and hear more differently than the disparity among sales pitches. (Heck, just read the response to comments on TUG threads and you can see that everyone interprets the same words differently!) Remember, they all get trained from the the same template and they are sensitive to breaking laws and getting sued. Plus, if you are really unhappy and have a bad experience you are not referring friends, a key lead generator for them.

My wife and I spent 3+ hours with the rep before buying. We had lots of questions and did lots of calculations. Sure we got the cost-is-lower-than-staying-at-hotels-over-your-lifetime pitch and my wife is still convinced that that is true. However, we never for a moment thought MFs would remain flat or that we could exchange and go to any other resort on the week we wanted every year. (Although, owning an Aruba platinum week has worked out well in that regard. The small locked off bedroom has, knock on wood, traded into larger units everytime so far!)

And two things we thought were an absolute crock, okay, let me soften that, were of no value to us were:
+ the trading-for-Marriott-points option, and
+ the lifetime of memories.

With regard to the first point, the economics never made sense! Why would we pay $1,000 in MF only to trade them for $500-600 worth of points? And, wrt to the latter point, we were taking nice vacations every year and planned to continue doing so. We made our own memories at nice hotels, resorts, or condos. TS wouldn't add anything there other than to possibly steer us to go to locations that might not have come up on our radar right away. Don't get me wrong, we have nice TS vacation memories, but lots of non-TS memories as well.

It had to come down to economics and the belief that hotel costs (and condo rentals) would continue to escalate over the next 20 years. Ever check the cost of a room at the Marriott in Aruba for a night in February? Certainly the math is better with lower resale pricing, but we were still TS novices and not aware of the secondary markets. The KEY variable for us, and not having kids to vacation with, that made the TS work was... the LOCKOFF feature. It allowed us to spread the costs over two weeks.

I am not defending the sales reps, just saying that I think it is the buyers responsibility to understand what they are paying for.

 

[josh1231]

I would agree that Hawaii resorts are not as plentiful, however given a wide enough window they're still not too difficult to get. This being said, it's difficult to really to determine how much the recovering economy is contributing to the lack of trades.

I have never owned a non-marriott timeshare, however if it is as easy trading into a Marriott as it is with a Mariott, then that sounds like a good plan.

I'm not holding my breath on a recovery of the timeshare market. In 2000, the average Marriott hotel rented for $149 per night, in 2010 it was $156, or a gain of 4.5% over 10 years. Maintenance fee's have went up at most resorts by over 4.5% per year, reducing the value of timeshares each and every year.

Until Marriott becomes realistic with maintenance fee's, a recovery will not happen. In spite of all this, I'm still loving my Marriott.

I bought to trade up in flexchange. It worked for several years. I had 100% payback in 1 year, so I knew it was a good strategy. I could always dump my units when the time came. The time came, so I dumped them. When the point system was launched, the great exchanges to Hawaii resorts stopped being so plentiful. I knew that would be the case, so I was not surprise by it.

In addition, I hoped a robust rental market would emerge. If it did, I would convert my weeks into points and then rent points from other owners. That didn't happen. The economics of Marriott's are horrible. So, I am out. If I want to go to a Marriott, I'll either exchange into one or rent it. I cannot find any economic reason to own it other than to flip when the market returns, if it returns.

Marriott totally blew it with their point program. It really totally sucks. If they copied any of the existing programs, it would have been better. They had to go out and create a new one, screw it up and make it worse. As I said at the outset. Marriott sucks.

 

[m61376]

I'm not holding my breath on a recovery of the timeshare market. In 2000, the average Marriott hotel rented for $149 per night, in 2010 it was $156, or a gain of 4.5% over 10 years. Maintenance fee's have went up at most resorts by over 4.5% per year, reducing the value of timeshares each and every year.

Until Marriott becomes realistic with maintenance fee's, a recovery will not happen. In spite of all this, I'm still loving my Marriott.

That's certainly an interesting statistic. However, I'm not sure if comparing the average hotel rental rate across the board really gives a true picture. I'd be interested in the rental rate comparisons for key locations, where Marriott has also chosen to place their timeshare properties. In the last decade there have been many new Marriotts, including their lower priced lines (Residence Inn, Courtyard, etc.). What would be the real comparison is what the rate increases have been for JW's adjacent to timeshare properties.

IF there was such a small increase in the rental rates at comparable locations at the adjacent resorts, then this certainly would be food for thought.

 

[m61376]

I am not defending the sales reps, just saying that I think it is the buyers responsibility to understand what they are paying for.

Absolutely, but I do think that at least some of the reps (and thankfully not all, since Sue and others have had some very positive interactions) paint an overly rosy picture and it is easy for the novice buyer to take what they've been told at face value, especially when on the high of being on vacation.

Being the consummate shopper I didn't take the bait and found Tug before making any purchase, but I have to admit the salesman had my head spinning and was very, very tempting. While he didn't literally say you could trade into any resort any time of the year, he certainly proffered a somewhat skewed portrait of the trading process, going into his own II account and showing me all the weeks coming up that his lock-off could trade into, emphasizing that this was just what was available in the next few months and that there was so much more that he wasn't showing me. Not understanding the machinations of II, all those Flexchange exchanges really were impressive; the implication was that this was what trading was like and it was easy like that for any date you wanted to travel. So while ultimately it is the buyer's responsibility to check things out, at least some of the salespeople make it very easy to walk away with a skewed picture. Most people aren't like people on this board, and don't ask as many questions.

And two things we thought were an absolute crock, okay, let me soften that, were of no value to us were:
+ the trading-for-Marriott-points option, and
+ the lifetime of memories.

I agree with the former, but I have to say that I do think that the latter point simply isn't "sales-speak." We, too, have had lots of non-timeshare vacation memories. But I do think that timeshares help create a lifetime of memories. For many, it is an impetus to schedule a vacation and not find something else to do with the money, or not bother planning, or not taking time off, or one of any hundred of other excuses not to go away. Personally, while the kids were growing up and we had a school schedule to contend with, we almost had certain set times that we made sure to go away- President's week and the week before Labor Day were typically vacation times for many years. When the kids entered college things changed and we didn't have the set schedule and vacation planning took a back burner (and I was nervous to fly after 9/11, which became an easy excuse not to bother).

Anyway, I really do think ownership helps create enhanced vacation memories. Not only does it provide the impetus to actually take vacation, but looking around during our trips I think it creates different types of vacations. While my kids were growing up I was fortunate to have two active and healthy parents, and they travelled all over with us, so extended family vacations were the norm for us. However, rarely did I see that while away and almost never within my circle of friends; in contrast, on any timeshare vacation I've gone on I've seen many extended families. Timeshares are more conducive to family and extended family vacations. Also, ownership has allowed me to invite friends along and share vacation time with people I care about. Many others here have also posted how nice it was to be able to extend invitations to family and friends who otherwise wouldn't have joined us, whether for financial or other reasons. I may be naive, but I truly think that sharing vacations with family and friends does help create a lifetime of memories that would otherwise likely not be enjoyed.

 

[josh1231]

Comparing rates across the board does give a true picture, what you are wanting is a look into certain markets that you consider key.

I don't know if there are any hard statistics showing what you're looking for. That being said, I have been traveling consistently during those 10 years and can personally vouch for the fact that hotel prices have been very flat in most of the Marriott timeshare markets, compared with maintenance fees that have been anything but flat, thus partly leading to the depressed prices the timeshares are experiencing. With the probable reduced trading power of weeks moving forward, as well as the large fee to sell points, I wouldn't bet on a recovery in timeshare prices.

That being said, if you are correctly looking at your timeshare not as an "investment", and instead comparing the numbers based upon the amount you would have paid for similar vacations, a Marriott can still be a great purchase.

I have paid $2500 in the last 2 years for 7 nights in Paris, 7 nights in Marbella, 7 nights in St. Thomas and 7 nights in las vegas (getaway), and have a 1-bedroom left.

In spite of rising maintenance fees, like the OP, I still love my timeshare.

That's certainly an interesting statistic. However, I'm not sure if comparing the average hotel rental rate across the board really gives a true picture. I'd be interested in the rental rate comparisons for key locations, where Marriott has also chosen to place their timeshare properties. In the last decade there have been many new Marriotts, including their lower priced lines (Residence Inn, Courtyard, etc.). What would be the real comparison is what the rate increases have been for JW's adjacent to timeshare properties.

IF there was such a small increase in the rental rates at comparable locations at the adjacent resorts, then this certainly would be food for thought.