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Today is the day I hate Marriott Timeshares!

jpc763

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I paid my maintenance fees today :mad:

$2609.45 for 2 weeks per year! :annoyed:

When I bought in 1999 my first unit (Imperial Palms) the maintenance fees were $702.29. Now, they are $1242.54 a 56.52% overall increase!

I wish my 401k had that kind of return over the past 12 years!
 

PamMo

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I paid my maintenance fees today :mad:

$2609.45 for 2 weeks per year! :annoyed:

When I bought in 1999 my first unit (Imperial Palms) the maintenance fees were $702.29. Now, they are $1242.54 a 56.52% overall increase!

I wish my 401k had that kind of return over the past 12 years!

For what it's worth, over twelve years, that is roughly a compounded annual growth rate (CAGR) of 4.87% compared with the DJIA's anemic .48% CAGR since Jan 2000. (But frankly, I've had a lot more fun with my timeshares than with my investments over the last decade!)
 

EKniager

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PamMo beat me to the party but I will add that if you aren't making 5%/yr on your 401(k) you are too conservative! ;)
 

Beefnot

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I paid my maintenance fees today :mad:

$2609.45 for 2 weeks per year! :annoyed:

When I bought in 1999 my first unit (Imperial Palms) the maintenance fees were $702.29. Now, they are $1242.54 a 56.52% overall increase!

I wish my 401k had that kind of return over the past 12 years!

Not to rub it in, but thatis a 76.9% increase. Your MFs have increased by $540.23 since 1999. Divide that by the original $702.29 and...damn...a big a$$ increase in 13 years.
 

Beefnot

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PamMo beat me to the party but I will add that if you aren't making 5%/yr on your 401(k) you are too conservative! ;)

Not necessarily true. The market has stagnated on average since 2000. Market timing could have produced superior returns, but that requires luck or foresight. More aggressive investing could well have produced far inferior returns.
 

EKniager

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Not necessarily true. The market has stagnated on average since 2000. Market timing could have produced superior returns, but that requires luck or foresight. More aggressive investing could well have produced far inferior returns.

LOL, I know that's why I did not include a curve of the S&P for that period and included the ;)
 

jpc763

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Not to rub it in, but thatis a 76.9% increase. Your MFs have increased by $540.23 since 1999. Divide that by the original $702.29 and...damn...a big a$$ increase in 13 years.

Good point. Math atrophy!
 

dougp26364

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I paid my maintenance fees today :mad:

$2609.45 for 2 weeks per year! :annoyed:

When I bought in 1999 my first unit (Imperial Palms) the maintenance fees were $702.29. Now, they are $1242.54 a 56.52% overall increase!

I wish my 401k had that kind of return over the past 12 years!

It could be worse. You could be like me and own at two of the higher priced Marriott's, Grand Chateau and Ocean Pointe. We own two 3 bedroom silver season weeks and pay ~ $3,200 for both.

I think the highest price Marriott resort by sq. footage would have to be Mountain Valley Lodge. I believe the one bedroom units there are over $1,000/year in MF's.
 

Big Matt

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I only have one comment.

Imperial Palms Villas are a much better property now than when you bought. Sure they are older, but they are upgraded with the most modern appliances and TVs and have granite and wonderful furniture. Great use of reserve money IMO.
 

MOXJO7282

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I know MFs are tough to handle but I feel for sure we're getting our monies worth.

I never saw much value in the 1BDRM units quite honestly because MFs for the 2BDRMs were only slightly higher but a nice Marriott 2BDRM during prime time has and continues to be a good value to own for the most part.

For instance MOC MF is $1899. Yes pricey but for a 2BDRM OV/OF during prime time that $1899 is quite reasonable.

Same is true for 90% of Marriott 2 BDRMs plats I believe.
 

OldPantry

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It could be worse. You could be like me and own at two of the higher priced Marriott's, Grand Chateau and Ocean Pointe. We own two 3 bedroom silver season weeks and pay ~ $3,200 for both.

I think the highest price Marriott resort by sq. footage would have to be Mountain Valley Lodge. I believe the one bedroom units there are over $1,000/year in MF's.
If you really want to cry, try owning in Hawaii, particularly Kauai, Ko Olina or Maui. Those MFs have risen hugely (over 70% for me at Ko Olina), and in many cases, rentals no longer cover them. That's painful.
 

EKniager

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I know MFs are tough to handle but I feel for sure we're getting our monies worth.

I never saw much value in the 1BDRM units quite honestly because MFs for the 2BDRMs were only slightly higher but a nice Marriott 2BDRM during prime time has and continues to be a good value to own for the most part.

For instance MOC MF is $1899. Yes pricey but for a 2BDRM OV/OF during prime time that $1899 is quite reasonable.

Same is true for 90% of Marriott 2 BDRMs plats I believe.

It's not realistic to use these numbers without amortizing the upfront cost on top of them as well. Even if you spread them out over 20 years, the developer pricing adds at least another $1,000/yr.

So, if I-
+ spead the $20K purchase over the life of my Surf Club usage, again let's say 20 years, and...
+ rent out the lockoff to cover MF's annually, and
+ assume a lost opportunity of 5% return on my capital (another $1K/yr)

... assuming the rental revenue for my "studio" unit keeps up with the MF's, over a 20 year period it will cost me a fixed $2K/yr to stay on the beach in a one bedroom condo (remember the lockoff bedroom is gone).

In your words, that is definitely still more than "reasonable."
 

EKniager

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If you really want to cry, try owning in Hawaii, particularly Kauai, Ko Olina or Maui. Those MFs have risen hugely (over 70% for me at Ko Olina), and in many cases, rentals no longer cover them. That's painful.

I think those are like the Four Seasons units. People were paying >$40K to the developer for those units but due to the high MFs (>$2,500) they are being sold at huge discounts!
 
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MOXJO7282

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It's not realistic to use these numbers without amortizing the upfront cost on top of them as well. Even if you spread them out over 20 years, the developer pricing adds at least another $1,000/yr.

So, if I-
+ spead the $20K purchase over the life of my Surf Club usage, again let's say 20 years, and...
+ rent out the lockoff to cover MF's annually, and
+ assume a lost opportunity of 5% return on my capital (another $1K/yr)

... assuming the rental revenue for my "studio" unit keeps up with the MF's, over a 20 year period it will cost me a fixed $2K/yr to stay on the beach in a one bedroom condo (remember the lockoff bedroom is gone).

In your words, that is definitely still more than "reasonable."

In my case I don't "assume" any lost opportunity because I financed ALL my purchases from 0% credit cards for the last 10 years believe it or not. We always had good credit with high limits and thankfully enough steady income to pay down the "loans" as we went.

For years it was like taking candy from a baby because there were so many offers and no associated fees, so I would flip at times several $100k around every 12 months for free. Over the lst 5 years they started to grandually introduce transfer fees but those are still manageable so I still pay the game successfully.

The last one I still have a balance on is MOW. I start by using my MAR Visa to pay a large portion for the points and then used a 0% card to pay off.

Incidentally my first 2 Mauis and Aruba Surf I paid full with MAR Visa first for big points but they stopped allowing full payment with MAR Visa a number of years ago.

I'm down to $1800 on the $25k I "borrowed" for the MOW. I have paid some financing because of the fees but nothing close, probably 1-2% on some over the course of time, but nothing near 5%.

The fact is we do this with almost every major purchase because we still have great credit and very high limits because of what we did years ago opening up every card we could. We have one card with $95k credit limit and no annual fee. It does have a 3% fee but I can easily negotiate that into the cost of anything.

For instance just put in nice vinyl fencing for $4200. Negotiatied with 4 suppliers. Did final negotiations with lowest and favored supplier who threw in removal of existing fence which lowered price by $400. I then used the 0% credit card and wrote him a check that I don't have to pay off for 12 months.

We do this on every major purchase and it really allows us to manage our income and expenses very well and procure things we wouldn't be able to if we had to shell out for cost for the item upfront.

Even for my daughter's college costs that are on the horizon will be handled the same way. I have one card with $10k limit and only 1% transfer fee that I have ready. I can't negotiate with the colleges but at 1% I'll be happy to float the money for 12 months instead of just paying in one shot.
 

jpc763

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It could be worse. You could be like me and own at two of the higher priced Marriott's, Grand Chateau and Ocean Pointe. We own two 3 bedroom silver season weeks and pay ~ $3,200 for both.

I think the highest price Marriott resort by sq. footage would have to be Mountain Valley Lodge. I believe the one bedroom units there are over $1,000/year in MF's.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Marriott's the other 364 days of the year! :D

I use my Ko Olina week every Even year (going for sprint break this year) and use my Shadow Ridge for Thanksgiving every Odd year.

These days, I always trade the Imperial Palms week mainly because we do not want to go to Orlando during Winter, Spring Break, Summer or Christmas time (Plat Season). We need to follow the kids school schedule so for 2012, we traded a spring week for Thanksgiving week so will be able to check out what all of my Reserve Fees have been spent on.

Just grumbling about spending 2600.

J

Imperial Palms is a great property. It is very convenient to Disney
 

jont

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In my case I don't "assume" any lost opportunity because I financed ALL my purchases from 0% credit cards for the last 10 years believe it or not. We always had good credit with high limits and thankfully enough steady income to pay down the "loans" as we went.

For years it was like taking candy from a baby because there were so many offers and no associated fees, so I would flip at times several $100k around every 12 months for free. Over the lst 5 years they started to grandually introduce transfer fees but those are still manageable so I still pay the game successfully.

The last one I still have a balance on is MOW. I start by using my MAR Visa to pay a large portion for the points and then used a 0% card to pay off.

Incidentally my first 2 Mauis and Aruba Surf I paid full with MAR Visa first for big points but they stopped allowing full payment with MAR Visa a number of years ago.

I'm down to $1800 on the $25k I "borrowed" for the MOW. I have paid some financing because of the fees but nothing close, probably 1-2% on some over the course of time, but nothing near 5%.

The fact is we do this with almost every major purchase because we still have great credit and very high limits because of what we did years ago opening up every card we could. We have one card with $95k credit limit and no annual fee. It does have a 3% fee but I can easily negotiate that into the cost of anything.

For instance just put in nice vinyl fencing for $4200. Negotiatied with 4 suppliers. Did final negotiations with lowest and favored supplier who threw in removal of existing fence which lowered price by $400. I then used the 0% credit card and wrote him a check that I don't have to pay off for 12 months.

We do this on every major purchase and it really allows us to manage our income and expenses very well and procure things we wouldn't be able to if we had to shell out for cost for the item upfront.

Even for my daughter's college costs that are on the horizon will be handled the same way. I have one card with $10k limit and only 1% transfer fee that I have ready. I can't negotiate with the colleges but at 1% I'll be happy to float the money for 12 months instead of just paying in one shot.

Thanks for sharing Joe.
That's an interesting way of approaching it. I'm not sure I would have the
will to try that but I admire your creatitivy and insight.:)
Enjoy your upcomming trip to Maui.
 

EKniager

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In my case I don't "assume" any lost opportunity because I financed ALL my purchases from 0% credit cards for the last 10 years believe it or not.

The lost opportunity I was referring to was the money to be made on your capital. That is, whether you borrowed it or paid in cash, the opportunity is to invest that money in something that appreciates. (BTW, if you can borrow at 1% and get a guaranteed return of >1%, that's called printing money!)

I'm not sure what the number is today, as I left "corporate America" a while ago, but before we would invest in anything we had to prove that the return was greater than the cost of capital, i.e., 10%. If you couldn't beat that, there was no reason to take on the risk.

Every time I read a post here where someone says, "Ya we lost money but we have great memories," my jaw drops. You can have great vacation memories without owning a timeshare property. If the economics are not profitable to own them, rent them (or some other hotel room, condo, etc.) and invest the upfront money!
 

SueDonJ

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... Every time I read a post here where someone says, "Ya we lost money but we have great memories," my jaw drops. You can have great vacation memories without owning a timeshare property. If the economics are not profitable to own them, rent them (or some other hotel room, condo, etc.) and invest the upfront money!

Obviously you're somebody who doesn't think your money is "working" for you unless it's making you more money. I expect that if you feel so strongly about money invested in timesharing being wasted unless it couldn't have earned you more money elsewhere, you probably feel that way about all the money you invest in other "luxury" spending as well - eating in restaurants, driving any car but the lowest-priced brands, shopping for clothing at any place but consignment or discount houses, using electronic gadgets where cheaper alternatives are still available ...

I like the balance where anybody is free to choose how much of his money needs to be designated as "working" money and how much of it can be spent on indulgences that aren't meant to do anything other than please the purchaser in ways that make sense to him. If I'm happy with the experiences that I've gotten from my timeshares and I haven't sacrificed or jeopardized my financial security by purchasing them, why are you induced to drop your jaw simply because I've chosen to pay a premium for the convenience of owning timeshares? If I wanted to forever play the vacation rental game then I wouldn't have bought the timeshares. If I wanted to vacation in structures/locations that aren't timeshares then I wouldn't have bought timeshares.

If I am not spending YOUR money, why do you feel a need to comment negatively on the way I'm spending? It's one thing to say that you're not comfortable with purchasing timeshares unless certain conditions exist, but it's quite another to insinuate that anyone who buys under any conditions but the ones you accept is doing it wrong. As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY timeshare purchase that's wrong is the one that puts the purchaser in a financial hole from which s/he can't recover. Timeshares are no different in that way than any other luxury spending.
 

EKniager

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Obviously you're somebody who doesn't think your money is "working" for you unless it's making you more money. I expect that if you feel so strongly about money invested in timesharing being wasted unless it couldn't have earned you more money elsewhere, you probably feel that way about all the money you invest in other "luxury" spending as well - eating in restaurants, driving any car but the lowest-priced brands, shopping for clothing at any place but consignment or discount houses, using electronic gadgets where cheaper alternatives are still available ...

LOL, obviously I don't think all timeshare purchases are a waste of money, we own two weeks! My comments are at the tail end of a longer conversation and I think taken a bit out of context, but... I'll apologize anyway to anyone who was offended by my last comment.
 

Beefnot

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Obviously you're somebody who doesn't think your money is "working" for you unless it's making you more money. I expect that if you feel so strongly about money invested in timesharing being wasted unless it couldn't have earned you more money elsewhere, you probably feel that way about all the money you invest in other "luxury" spending as well - eating in restaurants, driving any car but the lowest-priced brands, shopping for clothing at any place but consignment or discount houses, using electronic gadgets where cheaper alternatives are still available ...

I like the balance where anybody is free to choose how much of his money needs to be designated as "working" money and how much of it can be spent on indulgences that aren't meant to do anything other than please the purchaser in ways that make sense to him. If I'm happy with the experiences that I've gotten from my timeshares and I haven't sacrificed or jeopardized my financial security by purchasing them, why are you induced to drop your jaw simply because I've chosen to pay a premium for the convenience of owning timeshares? If I wanted to forever play the vacation rental game then I wouldn't have bought the timeshares. If I wanted to vacation in structures/locations that aren't timeshares then I wouldn't have bought timeshares.

If I am not spending YOUR money, why do you feel a need to comment negatively on the way I'm spending? It's one thing to say that you're not comfortable with purchasing timeshares unless certain conditions exist, but it's quite another to insinuate that anyone who buys under any conditions but the ones you accept is doing it wrong. As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY timeshare purchase that's wrong is the one that puts the purchaser in a financial hole from which s/he can't recover. Timeshares are no different in that way than any other luxury spending.

Zeesh, take a chill with the sensitivity and indignation. You may disagree, but he still raises a fair point. If, I'm saying if, it were possible to have the same (or very similar) vacations one has had by renting instead of owning, then most would choose to rent. Also, if someone is saying that they are getting their money's worth (referencing a previous post), then it is legitimate to challenge someone's math.

Small counterpoint is that most do not do that assessment up front. Hindsight is 20/20. So now that the upfront cost paid to the developer is sunk, the "practical" math now comes down to the MFs.
 

jont

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Just my 2 cents worth
The majority of people buying timeshares are like me, I think. I did not buy as an investment but more like a consumable, something to be used and enjoyed.Although they can be much more expensive and have ongoing maintenance obligations,I think of them more like cars, appliances, electronics,clothing etc, something to enjoy and use frequently. I do not expect to get a return on my money.I just try to buy smart, pay a fair price and then move on. If i'm able to rent or trade up some times, even better.:)
 

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Zeesh, take a chill with the sensitivity and indignation. You may disagree, but he still raises a fair point. If, I'm saying if, it were possible to have the same (or very similar) vacations one has had by renting instead of owning, then most would choose to rent. Also, if someone is saying that they are getting their money's worth (referencing a previous post), then it is legitimate to challenge someone's math.

Small counterpoint is that most do not do that assessment up front. Hindsight is 20/20. So now that the upfront cost paid to the developer is sunk, the "practical" math now comes down to the MFs.

Zeesh. (I like that.) Sure, it's a fair point that timesharing is frequently not the most financially beneficial way to vacation. I just don't see anything wrong with countering his fair point with another that's just as valid and shared by many, that "money's worth" does not always pertain to the financials math. That goes for timesharing as well as a whole host of other things in life.

(I think you read sensitivity and indignation into way too many of my posts, Beef, when I don't mean for it to be there. I'm not a fragile flower, believe me. None of this hurts my feelings. :) )
 

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LOL, obviously I don't think all timeshare purchases are a waste of money, we own two weeks! My comments are at the tail end of a longer conversation and I think taken a bit out of context, but... I'll apologize anyway to anyone who was offended by my last comment.

Truthfully, I wasn't offended. I do, however, feel as strongly about my opinion as you do about yours.

It seems to me that if the statement, "Ya we lost money but we have great memories," causes your jaw to drop every time you hear it, then you must feel very strongly about timeshare purchases not being financially sound unless they happen under a certain set of circumstances that you approve of (such as, the buyer must not be able to vacation in similar fashion for less money.) I don't think it's wrong that you feel that way; there are many folks who feel exactly the same.

I just wanted to make the point that other folks do not feel the same way, but that does not make them wrong either. And, your way of thinking does not make my jaw drop. ;)
 
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