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Today’s Confusing HRC and Welk Announcement [merged]

tahoeJoe

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I just called Hyatt Vacation Club to book part of my home week. I'm a long time owner and was excited to hear about the Welk opportunity. We can book these weeks through the Vacation Club desk. For example, I could book a one bedroom at Villas on the Green in Escondido for 870 Interval Points. The bad news is that although they say that there are 8 resorts, there are only 5 locations. Three of the resorts are in Escondido, and the others are in Cathedral City, Truckee, Branson, Cabo, and Breckenridge. Sorry fellow Hyatt Owners, but Santa Fe is not one of the resorts available to us as part of this so called merger. Based solely on location, we have a few new choices - Escondido, Cathedral City, Cabo San Lucas and Branson. Maybe our Welk owners can tell us about the differences between the 3 Escondido properties.

Cathedral City?? Have you seen that "resort" I don't think it is anywhere near Hyatt's standards and may damage the brand. The resort received a dismal 7.00 on the TUG ratings board.

https://tug2.com/resorts/resort/Welk-Resorts-Palm-Springs-Desert-Oasis?rid=11179&page=description

I'm becoming increasingly disappointed with the so-called merger.
 

Mongoose

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I'm a little bit at a loss over the decision to keep HPC and Welk separate. It seems that HPC has been struggling since inception. With no new resorts in the pipeline isn't HPC and for that matter HRC kinda dead from a developer standpoint?
 

Mongoose

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Cathedral City?? Have you seen that "resort" I don't think it is anywhere near Hyatt's standards and may damage the brand. The resort received a dismal 7.00 on the TUG ratings board.

https://tug2.com/resorts/resort/Welk-Resorts-Palm-Springs-Desert-Oasis?rid=11179&page=description

I'm becoming increasingly disappointed with the so-called merger.
I agree. Its like what is the point?! It really does nothing for Hyatt. The only thing I can think is they have future plans that have not yet been announced. Some type of HGVMAX type of cross sell?
 

mjm1

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I just called Hyatt Vacation Club to book part of my home week. I'm a long time owner and was excited to hear about the Welk opportunity. We can book these weeks through the Vacation Club desk. For example, I could book a one bedroom at Villas on the Green in Escondido for 870 Interval Points. The bad news is that although they say that there are 8 resorts, there are only 5 locations. Three of the resorts are in Escondido, and the others are in Cathedral City, Truckee, Branson, Cabo, and Breckenridge. Sorry fellow Hyatt Owners, but Santa Fe is not one of the resorts available to us as part of this so called merger. Based solely on location, we have a few new choices - Escondido, Cathedral City, Cabo San Lucas and Branson. Maybe our Welk owners can tell us about the differences between the 3 Escondido properties.

Thanks for sharing that information.

We used to own Welk, so I can share information regarding the Escondido property. There are three sections. The Lawrence Welk Resort Villas are the original section. Fixed week/2 BR units that are large by today’s standards and nicely laid out. Only two floors in each building. Some, perhaps many of them, sit on an Executive Golf Course. We liked staying in these units, especially after they were updates. The next section is Villas on the Green. This is a floating ownership, the units aren’t as big and if I remember correctly there are usually 3 floors in each building. They are lock off units. The most recently built section is the Mountain Villas. This section, as the name suggests, is located further on the side of the mountain and sits on the outskirts of the entire property. The units were sold strictly as part of the Platinum points program and have lock off units (2 and 3 BR). Each section has one or more pools.

We actually enjoyed the resort, but over time decided the location in Escondido was too far from what we wanted. That said, it’s about 45-50 minutes north of San Diego (all times subject to SoCal traffic patterns), 30-35 minutes to the beach, 20-40 minutes to wine tasting in Temecula, and 25-30 minutes to the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.

Best regards.

Mike
 

mjm1

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Cathedral City?? Have you seen that "resort" I don't think it is anywhere near Hyatt's standards and may damage the brand. The resort received a dismal 7.00 on the TUG ratings board.

https://tug2.com/resorts/resort/Welk-Resorts-Palm-Springs-Desert-Oasis?rid=11179&page=description

I'm becoming increasingly disappointed with the so-called merger.
I agree. Its like what is the point?! It really does nothing for Hyatt. The only thing I can think is they have future plans that have not yet been announced. Some type of HGVMAX type of cross sell?

I agree with both of your assessments of this property. It is a converted apartment building located in Cathedral City. Welk would promote it as Palm Springs, which has a better image. The only way I can see bringing this up to Hyatt standards would be to tear it down, sell the land and rebuild it somewhere else. Rancho Mirage, Palm Desert or La Quinta come to mind. Of course that won’t happen. I wonder if they end up selling it to an independent group.

Best regards.

Mike
 

Mongoose

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I agree with both of your assessments of this property. It is a converted apartment building located in Cathedral City. Welk would promote it as Palm Springs, which has a better image. The only way I can see bringing this up to Hyatt standards would be to tear it down, sell the land and rebuild it somewhere else. Rancho Mirage, Palm Desert or La Quinta come to mind. Of course that won’t happen. I wonder if they end up selling it to an independent group.

Best regards.

Mike
Or tear it down and rebuild. The land is where the value is.
 

mjm1

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Or tear it down and rebuild. The land is where the value is.

I agree. My only issue with that is that it’s still in Cathedral City. Not a likely spot for a Hyatt.
 

Mongoose

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I agree. My only issue with that is that it’s still in Cathedral City. Not a likely spot for a Hyatt.
They can call is South Palm Desert.... LOL....
 

Kal

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IMHO, my take is the Welk's weeks properties are for large part marginal. Then with the Welk's points properties, there's a real step-up. Just look at the locations: Sedona, Avon CO, La Jolla, Scottsdale, Kauai, Beaver Creek, Tahoe, and Santa Fee. Those places get my interests. Let me think...Escondido rocks or Kauai anything?? So is that the driver for the Hyatt deal? Throw the HRC folks a bone in hopes they will come to HPP.
 

dannybaker

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To be fair, there really are no big “winners or losers”. It’s 98% status quo. A Welk owner said they felt abused, not sure how that is the case. I had hoped for some advantages, but there is no free lunch.
I think abused in the sense that no real information has flown to owners.
 

ScoopKona

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Club members have a contractual right to club assets (the pool of intervals within the club). Hyatt can offer its owners access to Welk intervals Hyatt OWNS, or to intervals that owners have granted use of to Hyatt (via internal exchange, delinquency agreements, etc), but for Hyatt to open Welk Club-owned intervals for the use of Hyatt members would be an egregious breach of contract.

I was a Hyatt salesman. One of my standard lines was, "Hyatt has the right to monkey with the program. This bit you're initialing right here says so. If they do, you will own your week in your unit at Sunset Harbor/Beach House/Windward."

They will win if sued on that. The only way is to nudge them in the right direction.
 

alameda94501

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IMHO, my take is the Welk's weeks properties are for large part marginal. Then with the Welk's points properties, there's a real step-up. Just look at the locations: Sedona, Avon CO, La Jolla, Scottsdale, Kauai, Beaver Creek, Tahoe, and Santa Fee. Those places get my interests. Let me think...Escondido rocks or Kauai anything?? So is that the driver for the Hyatt deal? Throw the HRC folks a bone in hopes they will come to HPP.

According to the Public Report document (https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hrc-to-acquire-welk-resorts-merged.314028/page-16#post-2605405) some of the Welk Collections have pretty steep competition, since Welk has 32,000 members already. I took the Public Report and put it in a spreadsheet, ordered by the weeks availability. It looks to me to be a real snipe hunt for Avon CO or Scottsdale.


ResortCitySTWeeksPlatinumPointsWeek%PP%
Lawrence Welk Resort VillasEscondidoCA 10,588 2,541,120,000
23.3%​
22.4%​
Villas on the GreenEscondidoCA 9,619 1,760,610,000
21.1%​
15.5%​
Desert OasisCathedral CityCA 5,638 676,560,000
12.4%​
6.0%​
Mountain VillasEscondidoCA 3,942 1,201,320,000
8.7%​
10.6%​
Northstar LodgeTruckeeCA 3,906 1,717,890,000
8.6%​
15.2%​
Sirena Del MarCaboMx 3,744 1,347,840,000
8.2%​
11.9%​
Lodges at Timber RidgeBransonMO 3,120 741,360,000
6.9%​
6.5%​
Pono KaiKapa'aHI 734 140,175,000
1.6%​
1.2%​
RanahanBreckenridgeCO 572 269,010,000
1.3%​
2.4%​
The Cliffs at PrincevillePrincevilleHI 562 103,680,000
1.2%​
0.9%​
One Village PlaceTruckeeCA 433 182,250,000
1.0%​
1.6%​
El Corazon de Santa FeSanta FeNM 410 179,400,000
0.9%​
1.6%​
Eagle Crest ResortRedmondOR 364 64,110,000
0.8%​
0.6%​
Four Seasons Residence Club - AviaraCarlsbadCA 327 141,750,000
0.7%​
1.3%​
Villas of Cave CreekCave CreekAZ 301 56,880,000
0.7%​
0.5%​
Red Wolf Lodge at Squaw ValleyOlympic ValleyCA 263 16,860,000
0.6%​
0.1%​
Stoneridge ResortBlanchardID 200 19,632,000
0.4%​
0.2%​
Arroyo Roble ResortSedonaAZ 188 55,950,000
0.4%​
0.5%​
Red Wolf Lakeside LodgeTahoe VistaCA 182 9,930,000
0.4%​
0.1%​
Falcon PointAvonCO 150 21,445,000
0.3%​
0.2%​
Four Seasons Residence Club - Troon NorthScottsdaleAZ 140 63,000,000
0.3%​
0.6%​
Poste Montane LodgeAvonCO 128 20,670,000
0.3%​
0.2%​
TOTALS 45,511 11,331,442,000
 

alameda94501

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I was a Hyatt salesman. One of my standard lines was, "Hyatt has the right to monkey with the program. This bit you're initialing right here says so. If they do, you will own your week in your unit at Sunset Harbor/Beach House/Windward."

They will win if sued on that. The only way is to nudge them in the right direction.

I agree, @ScoopLV, that for the legacy program as a deeded program Hyatt has complete flexibility since we're really "just buying the unit week" and CUP is a "bonus".

My guess is that in consumer-friendly states, buying into a pure points program (whether HVC or HPC) affords a little more parity/protection, since the consumers has no fallback of tangible real estate.
 

Kal

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Club members have a contractual right to club assets (the pool of intervals within the club). Hyatt can offer its owners access to Welk intervals Hyatt OWNS, or to intervals that owners have granted use of to Hyatt (via internal exchange, delinquency agreements, etc), but for Hyatt to open Welk Club-owned intervals for the use of Hyatt members would be an egregious breach of contract. Note that changing the name of the club doesn't alter the contractual obligation to its members. Every system that swallows up a club has to engineer any interclub transactions so that the club it acquired remains intact.
With deeded ownership, all you own is Unit X during Week Y. The thought that someone "owns" the pool of intervals as an asset is not specified in the deed.
 

Kal

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According to the Public Report document (https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hrc-to-acquire-welk-resorts-merged.314028/page-16#post-2605405) some of the Welk Collections have pretty steep competition, since Welk has 32,000 members already. I took the Public Report and put it in a spreadsheet, ordered by the weeks availability. It looks to me to be a real snipe hunt for Avon CO or Scottsdale.


ResortCitySTWeeksPlatinumPointsWeek%PP%
Lawrence Welk Resort VillasEscondidoCA 10,588 2,541,120,000
23.3%​
22.4%​
Villas on the GreenEscondidoCA 9,619 1,760,610,000
21.1%​
15.5%​
Desert OasisCathedral CityCA 5,638 676,560,000
12.4%​
6.0%​
Mountain VillasEscondidoCA 3,942 1,201,320,000
8.7%​
10.6%​
Northstar LodgeTruckeeCA 3,906 1,717,890,000
8.6%​
15.2%​
Sirena Del MarCaboMx 3,744 1,347,840,000
8.2%​
11.9%​
Lodges at Timber RidgeBransonMO 3,120 741,360,000
6.9%​
6.5%​
Pono KaiKapa'aHI 734 140,175,000
1.6%​
1.2%​
RanahanBreckenridgeCO 572 269,010,000
1.3%​
2.4%​
The Cliffs at PrincevillePrincevilleHI 562 103,680,000
1.2%​
0.9%​
One Village PlaceTruckeeCA 433 182,250,000
1.0%​
1.6%​
El Corazon de Santa FeSanta FeNM 410 179,400,000
0.9%​
1.6%​
Eagle Crest ResortRedmondOR 364 64,110,000
0.8%​
0.6%​
Four Seasons Residence Club - AviaraCarlsbadCA 327 141,750,000
0.7%​
1.3%​
Villas of Cave CreekCave CreekAZ 301 56,880,000
0.7%​
0.5%​
Red Wolf Lodge at Squaw ValleyOlympic ValleyCA 263 16,860,000
0.6%​
0.1%​
Stoneridge ResortBlanchardID 200 19,632,000
0.4%​
0.2%​
Arroyo Roble ResortSedonaAZ 188 55,950,000
0.4%​
0.5%​
Red Wolf Lakeside LodgeTahoe VistaCA 182 9,930,000
0.4%​
0.1%​
Falcon PointAvonCO 150 21,445,000
0.3%​
0.2%​
Four Seasons Residence Club - Troon NorthScottsdaleAZ 140 63,000,000
0.3%​
0.6%​
Poste Montane LodgeAvonCO 128 20,670,000
0.3%​
0.2%​
TOTALS 45,511 11,331,442,000
These numbers make my head hurt. On first blush, it would appear that either there's a tremendous amount of unsold inventory, or Welk only owned a portion of the resort. For the bottom seven, only 0.5% - 0.9% are in play?? Where is the attraction for Marriott to purchase this Club???
 

Ty1on

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With deeded ownership, all you own is Unit X during Week Y. The thought that someone "owns" the pool of intervals as an asset is not specified in the deed.
UDI are deeded, too, unless you are in a trust. Ownership in anything, deeded or trust, is conscripted by the contractual terms of the ownership. Could be a unit and week, could float, could be a share of a finite points pool.
 
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Kal

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UDI are deeded, too, unless you are in a trust. Ownership in anything, deeded or trust, is conscripted by the contractual terms of the ownership. Could be a unit and week, could float, could be a share of a finite points pool.
When you join the "Club" you are provided a set of rules. There is no contract negotiation. The rules call out all the terms of exchange and point values, etc. Hyatt owns the system and they can and have changed any aspect of the rules at their leisure. If an individual resort desires to remove itself from the Club (as determined by the resort owners and BOD), Hyatt is removed and so are the rules. The resort is then free to retain another management firm and that firm provides new rules. In that case, there is still no contract or negotiation thereof with any individual owner.

Irrespective of the ownership issues, it would be extremely burdensome and costly for an owner to challenge the system or part thereof. Convincing the ownership pool to challenge Hyatt or Marriott would be like herding cats. In most resorts it is a real challenge just to get 30% of the owners to even vote on an issue.
 
Last edited:

RunCat

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These numbers make my head hurt. On first blush, it would appear that either there's a tremendous amount of unsold inventory, or Welk only owned a portion of the resort. For the bottom seven, only 0.5% - 0.9% are in play?? Where is the attraction for Marriott to purchase this Club???

you are correct about the limitations of ”The Experience Collection” resorts. From my understanding, Welk basically did what is recommended here: buy resale. They just did it in large blocks at a handful of resorts that were deemed attractive and provided an increased footprint. A point value was provided to those units and the points were added to the Trust. Those points could then be sold at retail; quite brilliant IMO. But to address your question, the inventory at each of them is quite limited. It may be only 1-3 units/week at each resort during non-peak seasons.

Why was Welk purchased? 1) I think the Welk family was motivated to sell due to: the changing timeshare landscape, financial strain due to a $5M judgment and loss of a Kauai purchase due to finding artifacts on the property, and challenges finding family members to lead the company. 2) Welk had a massive amount of unsold inventory. This would provide Marriott a way to less expensively create product for sale. And perhaps grow the Hyatt vacation club. 3) Welk’s sales cost were quite high. Marriott maybe saw a way to directly profit by just lowering those costs. 4) With the consolidation in the timeshare market, Welk would likely be acquired by somebody. Marriott may have decided it made more sense to bring the Welk customers into the Marriott program rather than letting them go elsewhere, 5) there is also additional land to add buildings/units in Breckenridge, Escondido, and Cabo.

FWIW, I own with both Vistana and Welk. Not too long ago they were both independent. They have now both been acquired by MVC. But not much has changed in either my use nor available resorts. With the “pending (?) unification between MVC and Vistana that may change. I suspect it will be another 1-2 years before we see any real change with either HRC and HVC.
 
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Kal

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you are correct about the limitations of ”The Experience Collection” resorts. From my understanding, Welk basically did what is recommended here: buy resale. They just did it in large blocks at a handful of resorts that were deemed attractive and provided an increased footprint. A point value was provided to those units and the points were added to the Trust. Those points could then be sold at retail; quite brilliant IMO. But to answer address your question, the inventory at each of them is quite limited. It may be only 1-3 units/week at each resort during non-peak seasons.

Why was Welk purchased? 1) I think the Welk family was motivated to sell due to: the changing timeshare landscape, financial strain due to a $5M judgment and loss of a Kauai purchase due to finding artifacts on the property, and challenges finding family members to lead the company. 2) Welk had a massive amount of unsold inventory. This would provide Marriott a way to less expensively create product for sale. And perhaps grow the Hyatt vacation club. 3) Welk’s sales cost were quite high. Marriott maybe saw a way to directly profit by just lowering those costs. 4) With the consolidation in the timeshare market, Welk would likely be acquired by somebody. Marriott may have decided it made more sense to bring the Welk customers into the Marriott program rather than letting them go elsewhere, 5) there is also additional land to add buildings/units in Breckenridge, Escondido, and Cabo.

FWIW, I own with both Vistana and Welk. Not too long ago they were both independen. They have now both been acquired by MVC. But not much has changed in either my use nor available resorts. With the “pending (?) unification between MVC and Vistana that may change. I suspect it will be another 1-2 years before we see any real with either HRC and HVC.
That's a very well thought out description of the Welk situation. What it really means is MCV saw an opportunity and acted. They are well aware of the extremely limited resource presented in Welk properties. Thankfully, MCV created a totally separate system without adversely impacting or diluting the existing HPP & HRC structure. Now let's watch all the frustration when owners see very slim pickings for exchanges.
 

Mongoose

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you are correct about the limitations of ”The Experience Collection” resorts. From my understanding, Welk basically did what is recommended here: buy resale. They just did it in large blocks at a handful of resorts that were deemed attractive and provided an increased footprint. A point value was provided to those units and the points were added to the Trust. Those points could then be sold at retail; quite brilliant IMO. But to address your question, the inventory at each of them is quite limited. It may be only 1-3 units/week at each resort during non-peak seasons.

Why was Welk purchased? 1) I think the Welk family was motivated to sell due to: the changing timeshare landscape, financial strain due to a $5M judgment and loss of a Kauai purchase due to finding artifacts on the property, and challenges finding family members to lead the company. 2) Welk had a massive amount of unsold inventory. This would provide Marriott a way to less expensively create product for sale. And perhaps grow the Hyatt vacation club. 3) Welk’s sales cost were quite high. Marriott maybe saw a way to directly profit by just lowering those costs. 4) With the consolidation in the timeshare market, Welk would likely be acquired by somebody. Marriott may have decided it made more sense to bring the Welk customers into the Marriott program rather than letting them go elsewhere, 5) there is also additional land to add buildings/units in Breckenridge, Escondido, and Cabo.

FWIW, I own with both Vistana and Welk. Not too long ago they were both independent. They have now both been acquired by MVC. But not much has changed in either my use nor available resorts. With the “pending (?) unification between MVC and Vistana that may change. I suspect it will be another 1-2 years before we see any real change with either HRC and HVC.
I'm not sure they were simply allowed to buy resale as there are commercial activity restrictions. They would have to negotiate T&C's with each company. They also had access to Disney.
 

RunCat

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I'm not sure they were simply allowed to buy resale as there are commercial activity restrictions. They would have to negotiate T&C's with each company. They also had access to Disney.
I could be wrong. I did talk to the folks at Poste Montane and Pono Kai about Welk's involvement. And it may not have been strictly a wholesale purchase. Welk basically negotiated the purchase of fixed weeks at these various resorts and that is how they acquired inventory. Not sure about the Disney access; but that no longer exists.
 

Kal

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The purchase of fixed weeks has been around since the dark ages. Vacation Internationale did it in the 80's
 

dOzEy22

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Has anyone been able to log onto the vacation travel center (formerly experience by welks)?
 

Mongoose

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Has anyone been able to log onto the vacation travel center (formerly experience by welks)?
Did you make reservations before Hyatt?
 
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