Timeshares never came back after the recession of 2008. Resales are not recovering value.

[OldGuy]

So I didn't think of this until the other night, but:

So far, I'm not seeing any data points to even support the theory/assumption that *prior* to the recession that timeshares "held their value" better than post recession. (Although OP was simply asking if things had held their value, so not busting on the OP).

I think I'm one of the few that actually posted real numbers (post recession), but I did all my resale purchasing post-recession (can't remember when my first developer purchase was--before I found TUG. Wanna say maybe 2007?)

In other words:
Let's pretend that pre-recession one bought an HGVC 7,000 point Platinum in Vegas resale for say, $15,000 in 2000.
Then in 2005 that was "worth" say, $10,000

Then we'd need to compare a post-recession purchase resale, of same thing and see what it's worth later.

At least in my mind, to be able to adequately answer the original question.

I think I/we have as complete of a combination as can be.

We bought (1989 and 1990), and sold our original two, retail, way pre-recession. The resale price was much less than the retail price had been, which has almost always been the case, but there was a resale market at lower prices.

I/we bought three resale pre-recession (one of them a foreclosure in 1992, so that has been an issue for a lot longer than the recession, and the other two from the association in 1999, so they were holding weeks pre-recession), and had to give them away post-recession, the last one a deedback just this year.

I/we bought four in 2007/2008, m/l at the precipice of the recession, from post card companies, so the collapse of the retail market had begun, sold one of them immediately at a depressed price from what they had been selling for resale, gave two of them away, and have held onto one, for amenities rights. At the time we bought these, there was a strong resale market at that resort, for amenities rights, and a waiting list for resale weeks, but that soon ended, 2009-ish.

I/we bought one resale in 2016 from an older couple who had bought it resale, and got too old to travel, for $450, and sold it in 2017 for $950, at a sold out legacy resort where there is a fairly stable resale market at $1500-$2000. We bought it for amenities rights also, and sold after we bought a better week. We also were able to rent out that week at a profit, the only one we were able to do that with.

Then, our final purchase, in 2017, we bought a week from that same resort for $700, a week they had taken back by non-judicial foreclosure. That was at the Association auction, where stuff pretty much went to current owners like us. Weeks to the public are still $1500-2000. Within the last couple of weeks I've asked the main guy if there are new ones forthcoming, and he said yes, in October or November, for the next auction.

Lengthy, but a thorough accounting, my answer is:

1. Originally there was a resale market, but much lower than developer prices.

2. For some there is virtually no resale market.

3. For some, in some locations, there is a stable, realistic resale market, at lower prices than developers would have, if there were still any developers, which there isn't.

 

[sail27bill]

So, the demise of some timeshares can be blamed on people who bought timeshares. That is a novel take.

Yes, because value is in the eye of the beholder. What something is worth is what someone is willing to pay for it. If the perception is it is worthless....then the value is negative. If people perceive it to have value then it does. Negative perceptions shared on a platform as extensive as the internet does drive down prices. And so does a person's behavior. If they bail on MF's, then the timeshare HOA is affected, and as a result, the timeshare operations itself suffer. The timeshare falls into disrepair and the value is now negative.

There comes a time when a persons lifestyle changes because of health, loss of job, death in the family, etc. I understand that. And I sympathize. But their actions unfortunately affect the value of the product if they fail to pay the MFs or trash the concept because they want out. The market downturn affected my family hard...and yet we persevered. Although I was disheartened to learn that what the timeshare person told me wasn't totally true, I learned to maximize my timeshares to the best of my ability. And maximize it I have. I didn't complain when life gave me lemons, I made lemonade. I also made plenty of mistakes in my life. I just wish that people would not trash timeshares because I believe the product has VALUE. To each his own.

After I bought SVV and Harborside retail, I looked at resale prices. SVV KW in 2005/2006 could be had at the time for about $4000-5000 and Harborside II 2006 about $8000 if I remember correctly. Now, I would have to give Harborside away and SVV would at best get $1000. So yes, post recession, both have taken an extreme hit. The value I get however through exchanging is amazing. I stay at 4 and 5 star places for 25% of the cost. I also get a lot of other perks from the ownership that non hotel brands do not get.

Times change, and we adjust. That is what makes life worth living. Hopefully prices will rise. If not, I still have my timeshares....

 

[bluehende]

The thing that baffles me is the fact that "new" timeshares are going up in price and sales while resales have collapsed. These two data points make no sense whatsoever. I can come up with three factors but I find it hard to believe it is responsible for the complete disconnect.

1. The salesman are that good or that dishonest.

2. Resale buyers are much higher information consumers. At least they have to do something to find out about resales.

3. The stripping of value (or addition to value of new if you prefer) on resales from some company's.

 

[OldGuy]

That's a good explanation from an someone who persevered, and made it work for them, and you seem understand that not everyone is like you.

When they are done with something, most folks want to get rid of it, not commit themselves to a lot of effort to make it work, when they don't want to make it work.

You also seem to understand that the harder it is for those people to get rid of it, it further depresses timeshares.

If that's you're saying, that's what I've been saying, and the sooner that is resolved, the better it will be for everyone, those who stay and those who leave.

I'm not saying you are, but blaming owners who want to get rid of their timeshares, or blaming someone who would like to see this problem resolved, does nothing to resolve the problem.

What I sense is that those who want to stay are afraid of what will happen if those who want to leave leave.

 

[OldGuy]

For those who misunderstand my intentions, so (wrongly) don't regard me as an advocate of timeshares, the problems we have been discussing are not going to go away.

There will continue to be more and more timeshare owners who don't want them, for the myriad reasons that is.

Other than money, are there any reason why people who don't want them should be forced to continue with them?

The sooner this can be figured out, the better it will be for everyone, and blaming folks does not resolve it.

Or, maybe not. Maybe sell and sue can go on forever.

It, too, is costly for those owners who want their timeshares.

 

[sail27bill]

The timeshare model is a good one; it is just implemented poorly. People go for the free gifts, attend a presentation with no prior knowledge or understanding and buy something for tens of thousands of dollars they may or may not be able to afford. Many do not even attempt to learn the basics of ownership. Management companies do not provide ways for owners to resell their units which further depresses costs. Nor do all companies act responsibly or ethically. (I believe most do).

Life is hard and situations change, and I get that. I wish there was a solution that would satisfy everyone. Mostly, I wish that the consumer actually had time to understand the costs involved before signing on the bottom line. I think this would go a long way to alleviating the problem. I applaud the people that make the effort to educate themselves, either use or give their unit away responsibly. Life is too short for blame. I would like to see the problem fixed for everyone's sake. But to do that, every person and company would have to make an effort. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. In the meantime, I am planning my next vacation.

Anita

 

[OldGuy]

I used that like button, cuz that just about sums it up.

Except to say that it's a shame that it pits owners against owners, and some get a tad ugly about it.

There is no one here, or no one anywhere right now, who has the answers.

 

[BreakingAway]

For those who misunderstand my intentions, so (wrongly) don't regard me as an advocate of timeshares, the problems we have been discussing are not going to go away.

There will continue to be more and more timeshare owners who don't want them, for the myriad reasons that is.

Other than money, are there any reason why people who don't want them should be forced to continue with them?

The sooner this can be figured out, the better it will be for everyone, and blaming folks does not resolve it.

Or, maybe not. Maybe sell and sue can go on forever.

It, too, is costly for those owners who want their timeshares.

I have enjoyed this discussion. There is a silver lining if one buys where he/she wants to stay. There are some very low priced resale weeks in desirable locations.

 

[OldGuy]

I have enjoyed this discussion. There is a silver lining if one buys where he/she wants to stay. There are some very low priced resale weeks in desirable locations.

I/we followed that advice, and in 2011 bought where, m/l, I have wanted to stay since 1976, and now I/we stay there all Winter. & I/we stay where we want to stay the rest of the year, also a touristy/vacation destination.



But, your suggestion is moot for those who just don't want to own timeshares.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I have enjoyed this discussion. There is a silver lining if one buys where he/she wants to stay. There are some very low priced resale weeks in desirable locations.

I concur that this is the trend and there are some fabulous resale opportunities. We bought Maui OF at a fraction of the price of retail and plan to use for the next 20+ years. We keep pinching ourselves about how little we paid because trying to buy a condo next door with the same OF view would cost millions. Same with our HGVC NY property on billionaires row with a view of Central Park. If we can't sell them, we'll just live in our timeshares...hmm...Hawaii OF and billionaires row in NYC is that so bad? We may leave these properties with our kids to use and a trust to pay the MF...they are not building any more beach on Kaanapali...Besides, the more years we use, the more the resale capital cost depreciates. Who cares if it is zero if you have used for 30+ years, saved a ton over renting, and you paid < $12k to begin with?

With resale you can't lose capital you didn't invest in the first place; developer purchases have much more capital to lose.

Trading loopholes were huge but are getting closed over time and if you don't stay on top of it, like a day trader in the stock market, you will get burned.

 

[CO skier]

So far, I'm not seeing any data points to even support the theory/assumption that *prior* to the recession that timeshares "held their value" better than post recession.

These are some numbers for Club Wyndham in 2006. The first number is the final bid, and the second number is the closing cost. Most of these resorts now sell for $1 or not much more, plus closing costs.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/prices-really-are-crazy.230123/#post-1782736

Recent completed auctions for comparison:

182k EY Pagosa $255 + $0 closing costs
https://www.ebay.com/itm/REDUCED-Wy...085816?hash=item23c3845838:g:uBYAAOSwaD5dVG6f

84k EY Smokey Mountains $1 + $299 closing costs
https://www.ebay.com/itm/84-000-Ann...230336?hash=item3410dd2f00:g:9YkAAOSwWXddUYoI

126k EY Palm-Aire $1 +$299 closing costs (did not sell at this price, relisted)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-PA...572862?hash=item3b3757d27e:g:9ZMAAOSw-9tdRKJq

312k EY Grand Desert $770 + $849 closing costs
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Gr...147499?hash=item2f349cb2ab:g:Fj4AAOSwrhZdQKNu


For a number of years post-recession, there would be a bump in resale pricing in the summer months. This has not been seen in the past couple of years. The bargains are now year round.

Club Wyndham Access was introduced after the recession. It offers Advance Reservation Priority at most Club Wyndham resorts, instead of only one. Resales in 2014 were in the $10-15/thousand points. These contracts can now be had for $2/thousand points.

When Wyndham's buyback program, Ovation, was introduced, there was speculation the supply on the secondary market would decline and resale prices would increase. There was no effect on the resale market pricing.​

 

[OldGuy]

Back to Cindy's point, the collapse of the resale market, it was the resale market that the industry relied on to purge dissatisfied owners. Granted, you had to disregard the misrepresentative implications made in developer presentations of 25 or 30 years ago, that timeshares were going up in value, leading prospects to believe that they were like real real estate, and they would be able to sell at a profit some day, at least they could sell at some price, albeit disappointing in most cases.

But, at least there was a way to purge dissatisfied owners.

It was at the point when so many could not sell at any price, and started giving them away to charities, and then the charities stopped taking them because they could not sell at any price, and that situation snowballed and compounded year after year, with more and more wanting out but not having a way to get out, that we got to where we are today.

The number of owners wanting out is just going to increase.

There is no way that associations want to or find any enjoyment in dealing with dissatisfied owners, and there is no way they want to or find any enjoyment in suing and placing liens on dissatisfied owners, but they are ill prepared to deal with this issue. In most case they are not prepared to sell timeshares, operate rental programs, and so forth. In most cases, they have not been provided with another option.

Whether there is an exit option or whether they sue unproductive weeks, both options cost money, the number of productive owners goes down, and fees go up, if the associations don't use other options.

 

[Gypsy65]

Some keep arguing that there’s no way out of a TS
Sure there is. Just the same as there’s a way out of a bad marriage or out of that home you bought for a $1,000,000 that’s only worth $500,000

The problem is you don’t like the way out
You feel entitled like a millennial and you want it your way with zero effect to your credit, pride, or lifestyle

You signed. You agreed and you never read your contract ( neither did I )

Want out?
Simply let it go and take the consequences associated with your decision
Might get sued. Might take a credit hit. Might even lose your home or be forced to sell but that’s life
I’ve made many bad decisions

The price of freedom whether from a marriage. Home. Or TS is not always what we’d like

 

[CalGalTraveler]

We have now circled back to the discussion with:

The "haves" hotel-branded timeshares with exit programs and deep pockets because they need to defend their brand reputation in order to keep their license with the hotels.

and

The "have nots" independent HOAs without the resources to fund an exit program.

Based on this discussion, I would not touch an independent TS for fear of getting stuck.

 

[Gypsy65]

Just a side note post

Someone made the post about how a neighbor brought over a handful of $100’s for an old Escalade I think?

Very much doubt the poster bought it new from the “ developer “ as the $$$ is high
A 2020 Escalade is close to $100,000
In 10 years when it too sells for a stack of hundreds tell me where the profit is

 

[Roger830]

These are some numbers for Club Wyndham in 2006. The first number is the final bid, and the second number is the closing cost. Most of these resorts now sell for $1 or not much more, plus closing costs.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/prices-really-are-crazy.230123/#post-1782736

Recent completed auctions for comparison:

182k EY Pagosa $255 + $0 closing costs
https://www.ebay.com/itm/REDUCED-Wy...085816?hash=item23c3845838:g:uBYAAOSwaD5dVG6f

84k EY Smokey Mountains $1 + $299 closing costs
https://www.ebay.com/itm/84-000-Ann...230336?hash=item3410dd2f00:g:9YkAAOSwWXddUYoI

126k EY Palm-Aire $1 +$299 closing costs (did not sell at this price, relisted)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-PA...572862?hash=item3b3757d27e:g:9ZMAAOSw-9tdRKJq

312k EY Grand Desert $770 + $849 closing costs
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Gr...147499?hash=item2f349cb2ab:g:Fj4AAOSwrhZdQKNu


For a number of years post-recession, there would be a bump in resale pricing in the summer months. This has not been seen in the past couple of years. The bargains are now year round.

Club Wyndham Access was introduced after the recession. It offers Advance Reservation Priority at most Club Wyndham resorts, instead of only one. Resales in 2014 were in the $10-15/thousand points. These contracts can now be had for $2/thousand points.

When Wyndham's buyback program, Ovation, was introduced, there was speculation the supply on the secondary market would decline and resale prices would increase. There was no effect on the resale market pricing.​

Wyndham is a poor proxy for the timeshare resale market.

As I mentioned previously, I paid about $4000 for each of my weeks 4,5,6 at Hollywood beach Resort from 2000 to 2012 that are now selling for $5000-6000.

I didn't mention that in 2014 on ebay I bought a Wyndham converted fixed week 7, 9th floor in Pompano, FL for $78.77. This year a 2-bed went for $13,000 with three bidders in Hollywood.

 

[clifffaith]

Here in the DFW area it is not a problem. You just call a charity, Kars for Kids. They have been doing it for many years and will take anything. If it has value, you will get a tax deduction. If no value, you are rid of the car...

George

K A R S Kars for Kids...Donate your car today. Now I'll have an ear worm for hours. That little ditty has made us aware of car donations. We donated our last car to KUSC radio. Not sure how much they got out of it by the time the car picker uppers took their cut, but it got it out of our front yard with just a phone call or online form filled out.

 

[icydog]

I have had no problems with my Disney Vacation Club points. They have always held their value. My Marriott Lakeshore Reserve weeks went from I think $18,000 each to maybe $2500 a week. And I anticipate they will be worthless soon because the maintenance fees are ridiculous. I trade my weeks for DC points but it is such a bad value it makes me a little sick.

I have been sold three of my weeks in the last few months. Ironically two of last three have all been ROFR'd by Marriott. I only have two weeks left that don't trade for DC points. I can't believe Marriott Rofr'd my platinum Willow Ridge week but I only had it listed for $1000. I only paid $1000 so I listed it for what I paid for it.

I plan on getting rid of my last two this year as well.

 

[BreakingAway]

I/we followed that advice, and in 2011 bought where, m/l, I have wanted to stay since 1976, and now I/we stay there all Winter. & I/we stay where we want to stay the rest of the year, also a touristy/vacation destination.



But, your suggestion is moot for those who just don't want to own timeshares.

For those who want to have a really nice vacation with upscale amenities in a really nice location, resale timeshare weeks are a great vacation value. An example is a resale week I bought for $1,000 two years ago with a maintenance fee of $1600. It can be rented directly from the developer with a senior discount for $4,500. I rented it this past spring for $2,300. In the second year of ownership, I will have recovered all my costs. When my life changes, I am quite confident that I could give it away here on TUG. In the meantime, the financial cost of ownership is $0. The enjoyment and life memories are priceless.

 

[dagger1]

That's a good explanation from an someone who persevered, and made it work for them, and you seem understand that not everyone is like you.

When they are done with something, most folks want to get rid of it, not commit themselves to a lot of effort to make it work, when they don't want to make it work.

You also seem to understand that the harder it is for those people to get rid of it, it further depresses timeshares.

If that's you're saying, that's what I've been saying, and the sooner that is resolved, the better it will be for everyone, those who stay and those who leave.

I'm not saying you are, but blaming owners who want to get rid of their timeshares, or blaming someone who would like to see this problem resolved, does nothing to resolve the problem.

What I sense is that those who want to stay are afraid of what will happen if those who want to leave leave.

Actually I don’t care at all if people who want to leave, leave. We will stay until we don’t want to. Then we will leave.

 

[OldGuy]

My words always were, "We'll just walk away."

Ten year walk, so, we didn't, of course.



Since this was misinterpreted, and used against me, again . . .

I came back to add that seven posts above I explained our entire timeshare history, all of our acquisitions and all of our disposals, and it is obvious from that full disclosure that we never actually walked away for any.

The point I was trying to make was that when people say they will walk away, or they will leave, it's something they say at the point in time when they are still using and enjoying their timeshares.

But, when that day actually comes, good, respectable, law-abiding, financially-responsible people with an 809 FICO score don't just walk away.

For responsibility, and credibility on the subject, I'll put our 30 years of making timeshare payments up against anyone.

 

[Gypsy65]

So
Having the attitude that we will just walk away after we get “ ours “ is my exact problem with the world we live in. And a statement made or thought at the time of purchase

Not my issue. Once I get mine I’ll throw the burden on the resort. Society or whatever the plan

Deadbeats by design have no place but they still exist by the millions

I’ve always said.
10% of the people run 90% of the world
And here we are. Proving my point once again for the past 30 years

 

[rickandcindy23]

I didn't see anyone saying to dump the burden to the other owners. You can still give away a good timeshare.

 

[OldGuy]

I didn't see anyone saying to dump the burden to the other owners. You can still give away a good timeshare.

If it's a good timeshare, the Association should be happy to take it back, sell it, and make a lot of money to ease the burden on the others owners.

If it's not a good timeshare, has no resale or rental value, the resort is in trouble, regardless.

 

[Gypsy65]

I didn't see anyone saying to dump the burden to the other owners. You can still give away a good timeshare.

Really?
What does just walk away imply?

Didn’t see we will sell or give away. But rather I read walk away as in let it go

Now I know that’s allegedly not what always happens but to have the idea in your head when buying or anytime is a display of someone who can be a burden