[ Thread is unlocked ] Megarenter Rap Lawsuit

[HitchHiker71]

I’m not trying to change any minds either, (maybe just open some)

there are systemic problems with points based timeshare systems that go deeper than just commercial use. The mega renters no doubt caused some problems, but not all of them.

There are only so many condos in Orlando. not every owners kid is going to get to see Mickey

there will still be couples like my wife and I that need a two bedroom unit (one of us snores) that ice the families with kids out of the larger units

But mainly there will still be owners, that feel entitled to what they want when they want it,,, and that’s a problem that getting rid of the mega renters won’t solve

Agree 100% - there's no one solution that will resolve the entire problem - but that's not the intent here - the intent is to implement solutions that provide actual owners access to the inventory in the system - as opposed to tens of thousands of renters consuming that same amount of inventory. As @paxsarah has said - the planners will likely benefit the most from the solutions being put in place. The early bird always gets the worm so to speak. Those who wait until the last minute to try to find inventory during prime season at high occupancy rate resorts are going to continue to have to learn to live with disappointment - even if every single MR is removed from the current system. As you have said - it's owners chasing reservations with points.

 

[Eric B]

The other thing that bothers me is that it's not just effecting rentals, but also exchange with independent exchange companies. There are some that Wyndham used to have direct relations with and would confirm reservations for deposits (e.g., Trading Places International). Despite including that as a perk for purchases in the Outrigger Resort Club, they no longer do the confirmations for those deposits (as reported by someone that attempted last year). The result is that using an independent exchange company requires a guest certificate to complete the exchange - I get it that Wyndham wants you to use their exchange company, but there are often better exchanges to be had elsewhere. When I do that, I'm not engaging in that activity for "commercial purposes" or with any other intent besides getting a better bang for my buck than I can get through Wyndham/RCI.

The fundamental problem I see with this whole thing is that Wyndham's go to attempts to curb megarenting activity amount to only the stick and no carrot - if they gave decent value for the money (e.g., at least covering the MF cost for reservations turned over to Extra Holidays) instead of allocating all risk of the transaction to the owners and 60% of the rewards to themselves, they would get more of the rental activity. Similarly, if they hadn't decided to cut themselves off from the competition in the exchange world, they would be able to get a slice of that.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I did not receive a cease and desist letter. But then, I only own 168K in resale. My point was that by the definition of some on the forum anyone who rents if violating intent and is an evil MR. Yet, one who does complain loudly has rented via LMR and has also taken compensation for rooms rented for coveted Daytona Bike week. I'd just like to know where the line is. It's time Wyndham defined the line!!! And, since no line exists, it seems that we most likely are all in violation of the rules since we have all either rented for cash or taken some type of compensation for putting friends and family up in room at a Wyndham resort.

Wyndham will never define the line - no attorney will ever allow them to do so - the wording is intentionally kept as a very high level by design.

 

[Eric B]

Wyndham will never define the line - no attorney will ever allow them to do so - the wording is intentionally kept as a very high level by design.

... and as a result there are no clear and present violations of the Commercial Use Terms and Conditions. That fact will leave the system design as the only way to try to disincentivize the behaviors that don't benefit them and another crop of folks will spring up to fill the void created by the intentional ambiguity and the current round of changes to get the current megarenters. If the corporate management really wanted to set things up in a manner that actually addresses the problem, they could do so explicitly. I'm glad to hear that you've seen the light on this.

 

[Cyrus24]

So while the "new crew" here on TUG might be in the minority today - we are the future - the "old crew" represents the past - and the past is going away -

I really take exception to the old crew/new crew chatter. What defines Old? Age, Wyndham ownership time, TUG membership time, attitude, MR/everybody else, Wyndham only owner versus Hybrid/Resale owner? Perhaps you could define this as I take offense to the terminology since I don't really know where the line is drawn. I don't need a dissertation, just a quick statement as to the line.

 

[VacayKat]

I think you're underestimating the number of folks that agree with TUG in so far as the majority of the owner base is concerned. TUG is the exception not the rule. I'm an admin/moderator on a good number of the FB forums - and from what we moderate out on the FB forums - the vast majority of FB group members have no love for MRs - and there are a LOT of owners that fall into this bucket on the FB forums - far more than are apologists for the MRs. It is true that the "new crew" here on TUG may be in the minority - but as I've said previously - the new will supercede the old - that's just the way it goes in this life. So while the "new crew" here on TUG might be in the minority today - we are the future - the "old crew" represents the past - and the past is going away - on that I think we're all seeing this play out right before our eyes - and Wyndham is at the helm - and there's nothing anyone here can do to stop it. For my part - I work with Wyndham every week - and based upon my considerable amount of experience here on TUG - I'm one of the only people that actually works with Wyndham. I don't buy into the "us vs them" mantra that underlies much of the sentiment expressed by the "old crew" here ont TUG - I buy into the "let's work together" to make our collective ownership experiences better with Wyndham - because that's what I believe in doing to make things better. That said - I'm not angry over anything - but I do disagree with the premises of most of the arguments made by the MRs with respect to their beliefs - and I have been and will continue to be vocal about why that it is when appropriate.

Let me be straight- I am not in favor of megarenters as they have been described here on the forums. But Wyndham set up the system and allowed the behaviour, and essentially when it bothered them (or the got enough complaints) the decided to do something. Wyndham now saying that getting rid of these folks will be good for me is honestly something I can not buy. And if Wyndham wanted to work with me, I’d be super excited to do so because the changes they make after making me promises that the changes negate IS something that harms me. I wish Wyndham cared about me, and I wished that because I have a few resale points and a LOT of developer points I wasn’t vilified for the very few vip perks I got on them. Discounts and upgrades are far and few between, not the norm.
What I was indicating was that I do not believe megarenters are the CAUSE of the problems, that lies squarely at the feet of the company. I don’t think owners who rent here and there to use points or to cover some MF fees are the problem, Wyndham told them they could, and in many cases, showed them how. I think infighting amongst owners just makes Wyndham more resolved that they need to exert more control, give fewer perks and clamp down whenever and wherever they think they can or might have success with.
I guess the question to be posed is: are megarenters the problem who deserve all the anger and to be vilified, or would it be better directed at the company?

 

[Cyrus24]

Wyndham will never define the line - no attorney will ever allow them to do so - the wording is intentionally kept as a very high level by design.

That makes Wyndham the bad guy in this entire discussion. Why can't we all see that?

 

[CO skier]

My point was that by the definition of some on the forum anyone who rents if violating intent and is an evil MR. Yet, one who does complain loudly has rented via LMR and has also taken compensation for rooms rented for coveted Daytona Bike week. I'd just like to know where the line is. It's time Wyndham defined the line!!! And, since no line exists, it seems that we most likely are all in violation of the rules since we have all either rented for cash or taken some type of compensation for putting friends and family up in room at a Wyndham resort.

I think Wyndham takes the same approach as Justice Potter Stewart did in 1964, "I know it when I see it."

There are some clues, though, from past lawsuits

"Megarenters

Owners who are operating a commercial vacation rental business

A Megarenter is an Owner who amasses millions of points in their account for the purpose of booking large amounts of inventory so that they can rent out the units for a profit. They are conducting a business by using our business!"

and

"Wyndham employees periodically used the term “Megarenter” to describe high-volume owners, like Plaintiffs, who used their points to operate rental businesses."



Owners who rent a few reservations probably are not considered to be a "Megarenter."

 

[Sandi Bo]

The Blackout Program seems to be working. BC has openings every weekend, except one, for the next 60 days. I have to wonder if we won't see this type of bump in availability after the MR's are gone and the Blackout BS is stopped? Or will MR's just suck up weekends at full point cost then just start charging more in rent for the units? Could a person still not come out ahead renting at a price similar to that being offered on EH by Wyndham?
Still not sure that availability will improve after the MR point ownership is reduced.

Bonnet Creek has always had availability this time of year. Starting the 2nd week and for sure the 3rd and 4th weeks. Kids are back in school (for the most part - of course even that has changed over the years for a variety of reasons). I would venture to guess the last 2 weeks of August and into September might be one of the lower usage times at Bonnet Creek. The only way to really know if blackout dates worked would be able to compare to usage to the previous times in past years (and still realize there are always reasons that effect usage). IMO, BC doesn't belong on blackout lists for that time frame.

 

[VacayKat]

I'm fine with the proposed items above. Richelle and I have explicitly had several conversations and proposals for item 4 above, dependent upon the use cases in scope. I continue to push this option as a valid part of an overall solution. I've also seen suggestions to simply stop allowing for purchase of additional GCs. That's not something I've considered in the past - I need to think about this option more as it relates to any possible F&F program.

Question - how would you add to the friends/family list if it was incorporated? I mean, one would presume you wouldn’t add all the people you know to the list and expect it to remain static.
For the record, if this worked and was implemented well it would eliminate most, if not all the problems.

 

[VacayKat]

The other thing that bothers me is that it's not just effecting rentals, but also exchange with independent exchange companies. There are some that Wyndham used to have direct relations with and would confirm reservations for deposits (e.g., Trading Places International). Despite including that as a perk for purchases in the Outrigger Resort Club, they no longer do the confirmations for those deposits (as reported by someone that attempted last year). The result is that using an independent exchange company requires a guest certificate to complete the exchange - I get it that Wyndham wants you to use their exchange company, but there are often better exchanges to be had elsewhere. When I do that, I'm not engaging in that activity for "commercial purposes" or with any other intent besides getting a better bang for my buck than I can get through Wyndham/RCI.

The fundamental problem I see with this whole thing is that Wyndham's go to attempts to curb megarenting activity amount to only the stick and no carrot - if they gave decent value for the money (e.g., at least covering the MF cost for reservations turned over to Extra Holidays) instead of allocating all risk of the transaction to the owners and 60% of the rewards to themselves, they would get more of the rental activity. Similarly, if they hadn't decided to cut themselves off from the competition in the exchange world, they would be able to get a slice of that.

Trading places program was terminated due to ‘low usage’ by the HOA. There was little to no notice (nov meeting, end of that same year termination, no letter sent to owners)

 

[VacayKat]

Bonnet Creek has always had availability this time of year. Starting the 2nd week and for sure the 3rd and 4th weeks. Kids are back in school (for the most part - of course even that has changed over the years for a variety of reasons). I would venture to guess the last 2 weeks of August and into September might be one of the lower usage times at Bonnet Creek. The only way to really know if blackout dates worked would be able to compare to usage to the previous times in past years (and still realize there are always reasons that effect usage). IMO, BC doesn't belong on blackout lists for that time frame.

Also hurricane season!!!!

 

[Cyrus24]

For the record, if this worked and was implemented well it would eliminate most, if not all the problems.

It's Wyndham, so we KNOW it would not be implemented well.

 

[Eric B]

Trading places program was terminated due to ‘low usage’ by the HOA. There was little to no notice (nov meeting, end of that same year termination, no letter sent to owners)

I'm sure they didn't take into account the fact that TPI is owned by ILG, which was bought out by Marriott and is a competitor to Wyndham. Nice that they were able to negotiate the same terms with RCI, the only Wyndham-approved exchange to use with the ownership, thus getting owners access to the same 2 for 1 week deposit deals ... oh, wait. That would be a carrot. Easier just to have the HOA, whose board is controlled by Wyndham, decide that usage is to low and call it a day.

 

[dgalati]

That makes Wyndham the bad guy in this entire discussion. Why can't we all see that?

They like a moving target. They can enforce what ever they consider to be commercial activity. Why cant you understand that Wyndham is not the bad guy? Wyndham is eliminating EH competition and it also helps free up inventory so owners to book personal use.

 

[CO skier]

Could a person still not come out ahead renting at a price similar to that being offered on EH by Wyndham?

The number of recent 1,0000,000+ points contracts recently listed on Ebay suggest that at least a few megarenters have already concluded that the answer to this question is, "no" or it will not be sufficently profitable to do so.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I will concede, the one way I think a current regular owner would see benefit is from the principle behind fitness memberships - it only works if some people never show up. So unlike a megarenter who we know was eking use out of every single point of their ownership as much as possible, of the 25 or 50 or 100 or whatever number of regular owners replace them, some of them are going to be slackers who don't use or underutilize their ownership. On FB there are plenty of people who say, "I bought three years ago but I've never taken a trip," or "My dad has owned for 20 years but hasn't used his points in the last 10," etc. Those people are how we benefit. Yay.

Yes - because the intent of a commercial business is very different than the intent of an individual owner booking vacations for personal use.

 

[Cyrus24]

The number of recent 1,0000,000+ points contracts recently listed on Ebay suggest that at least a few megarenters have already concluded that the answer to this question is, "no" or it will not be sufficently profitable to do so.

Some will leave, some will stay, and others may come in to fill the void. It's like me and my little resale contract. Do I keep it and deal with the hassle or just give it back.

 

[VacayKat]

Yes - because the intent of a commercial business is very different than the intent of an individual owner booking vacations for personal use.

Yikes. If I am benefitting because others are failing to use what they purchased and are subsidizing me, I feel pretty horrible about that. Makes me feel like I am taking advantage of them. I guess I now need a shower to clean that dirty feeling away.

 

[HitchHiker71]

If they are all CWA points, which is unlikely. Far less if you count all wyndham inventory.

From what I've observed - the majority of large contracts currently on eBay aren't CWA contracts - they are CWS contracts - so I would surmise the majority of MR contracts being held are CWS contracts as a result.

 

[Lisa P]

Does Wyndham not have the same obligation to ensure that it is not taking inventory that an owner might want to reserve? Or is it just owners who are prohibited from doing such things?

I believe they do have this obligation. So far, we have seen multiple postings that EH rentals have also been cancelled when they've overlapped with the newer restricted dates for GC reservations. That says to me that there's an effort to apply those rules across the board.

I guess what I'm not understanding is how megarenters differ from Wyndham and how little folks renting out a stay here and there to manage the ever increasing MF hurt me by their intent.

It's not that they hurt you by their intent. It's that their intent puts their actions in conflict with the rules by which we (owners) all play. As the developer/manager/trustee, Wyndham has different responsibilities and rights than individual owners. If I don't like what Wyndham is doing, I can take my complaint directly to them. If I don't like what megarenters are doing (booking blocks of primetime rooms for their business), I don't have any recourse with them directly, only through Wyndham.

...every time Wyndham let their sales people tell folks to make a sale that they could rent out points to cover their MF then we have an even bigger problem because Wyndham created the problem.

Agreed (Wyndham contributes to multiple problems with their sales practices) and Wyndham needs to address it on behalf of the majority of owners. However, small time renting is not the issue here because those owners are not reserving huge blocks of units (for private business profit) right at the 13-month mark and locking everyone else out. I'd suspect that the majority of megarenter holdings were not sold to megarenters by Wyndham anyway - they largely built their megamillions portfolios through resales and freebie giveaways.

I am just trying to figure out how these folks, who most likely are not as big as everyone thinks they are, are impacting my vacation when the only time I've ever had trouble finding a place to reserve is when I can find the inventory on Extra Holidays, a resort appears to be closed [no inventory at all for months on end] or during the craze earlier this year as folks tried to use up all their covid canceled vacation points.

Understandable. We've had several instances of seeing plentiful rental inventory on Ebay and Redweek, and those are not controlled by Wyndham. Further, Wyndham has not been offering EH rentals during the newer restricted prime time reservation dates/resorts (see above).

So let me ask this, is the way that they are hurting me this: they are hurting the brand....?

I could not care less whether megarenters hurt the brand. We just want to be able to see inventory at 10 months out and if we don't see any, we don't want to discover that some individual has made a business out of taking that inventory away (lots of rentals) from fellow owners who want to personally use it for family vacations - which is what we purchased.

 

[Eric B]

Yes - because the intent of a commercial business is very different than the intent of an individual owner booking vacations for personal use.

While I appreciate the focus on intent, it isn't intent that they're changing the rules of use on. Instead they are changing the rules on what people can actually do or not do and imposing additional costs on owners that aren't megarenters. I do not intend to engage in commercial purposes with my Wyndham points and never had - if all they are concerned with is intent, they're picking on the wrong guy. I'm sure there are a lot of other folks out there in the same boat.

Similarly, the idea that they will be using some unknown formula to determine how many complimentary VIP-eligible points in the next use year to make up for the unintended consequences of their rule changes is a bit annoying. It seems as though the net result will be to incentivize exactly the opposite behaviors from the ones they should be wanting to incentivize. My account was realigned last year because I acquired an EOY resale account and they have not historically given me any way to track where the points came from, they were all VIP-eligible and still are based on how the system treats them. Magically, some of those points will become non-VIP-eligible points in the next use year, though there is no indication which ones they will be or how it will be determined. All I know is that some people will be getting extra free points to compensate for having Wyndham hose them on point usage for next year; if I were to wait and see what my point totals will be after they figure it out, I won't get anything. However, if I were to make enough VIP reservations now to tie up all my points in the next use year, they will give me enough free VIP-eligible points to fix it. I'm not really sure that's a sound approach, but I'm not a fool and do respond to incentives like this - particularly when they're coupled with a generous cancellation policy that will give me the points back for a cancellation if it's >15 days out. With all the buggering around they did in my account, I don't know what points belong to what contracts and will not be bothered in the least if I wind up with a few extra ones because of they're gross mismanagement over the years - I've lost plenty in the past and they subsidized many of the megarenters with essentially unlimited points. In the end, my takeaway is that Wyndham doesn't seem to be able to tell their back end from a hole in the ground, which is probably not the impression they want to give their customers.

 

[CO skier]

Some will leave,

As a result of the changes in 2017, a number of large points management companies folded.

some will stay,

Some of those who stayed are now leaving, apparently.

and others may come in to fill the void.

That was the thinking in 2017, too. If it will be easy for others to "fill the void," why did so many experienced megarenters leave in 2017 and why are they leaving now?

 

[VacayKat]

I believe they do have this obligation. So far, we have seen multiple postings that EH rentals have also been cancelled when they've overlapped with the newer restricted dates for GC reservations. That says to me that there's an effort to apply those rules across the board.

Understandable. We've had several instances of seeing plentiful rental inventory on Ebay and Redweek, and those are not controlled by Wyndham. Further, Wyndham has not been offering EH rentals during the newer restricted prime time reservation dates/resorts (see above).

I could not care less whether megarenters hurt the brand. We just want to be able to see inventory at 10 months out and if we don't see any, we don't want to discover that some individual has made a business out of taking that inventory away (lots of rentals) from fellow owners who want to personally use it for family vacations - which is what we purchased.

I think this is where I start to differ- first, Wyndham owns plenty of points, so they have to be renting them in some way. They aren’t just going to lose money. From my dealings with Extraholidays, Wyndham puts these rentals on many websites, not just EH. While I get they currently are not currently promoting them for the blackout periods, are they just going to let inventory lie open at high demand resorts in the future? Maybe this is a trial run to see what the real demand is and then they will take everything in excess of that. We just do not know their plans.
Also, at 10 months out I have always been able to find what I wanted and more. I do think those who can‘t are not so much experiencing a mega renter problem but a demand by availability problem. I do not think it will go away.

 

[paxsarah]

Yes - because the intent of a commercial business is very different than the intent of an individual owner booking vacations for personal use.

I would hope the intent of an individual owner, just like the intent of a commercial business, would be to use all of their points and get their money's worth. A commercial business is just more efficient at it, and/or more motivated. So the rest of us benefit from the owners who don't actually live up to their intent.