Still confused on Trust vs. Legacy

[swaits]

Hi all,

New to the forum. But we're not new to ownership. We own three legacy weeks at Timber Lodge. We enrolled early in the DC rollout, and bought some legacy points. That essentially tops us off to about 10k total points annually.

Now, the DC program works incredibly well for us. We don't venture outside of the Marriott system. We really enjoy the flexibility in reservation dates. And, frankly, our Tahoe weeks converted over rather nicely.

But, until really discovering this great forum, I hadn't understood that Trust vs. Legacy meant anything other than how we initially acquired the DC points.

So, in practical terms, can you all help me understand exactly what this means to someone in my situation? And to my future?

We are headed to Maui in a few weeks and Kauai Lagoons a month later. If we do another tour, I'd like to be as well educated as possible.

Thanks!

 

[jont]

you can't buy legacy points, you can only rent them. if you bought points from marriott to top off your account , they were trust points.

 

[swaits]

you can't buy legacy points, you can only rent them. if you bought points from marriott to top off your account , they were trust points.

Yes, I completely understand that. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my post.

I'm asking how my two types of points differ. Especially given the background I have provided. How does this impact me? And, my future?

 

[jimf41]

I'll try. First off you own three LEGACY weeks that can be converted into points to be used in the destination club (DC) exchange. Next you bought some TRUST points. These can be used to access inventory that belongs to the trust or, like LEGACY weeks converted to points, can be placed in the DC exchange.

Once points of either variety are used to get inventory in the DC exchange they are the same. Some will differ and chime in to the contrary but according to the VOA's they are the same. Trust points cannot access legacy weeks. Legacy weeks cannot access inventory in the trust. Both can access inventory in the DC exchange. The DC exchange inventory is comprised of legacy week owners converting to points and depositing in the DC exchange and trust points or other MVC controlled inventory deposited into the DC exchange.

When you go on the tour just smile and be non-commital but polite. If you have 10,000 points and you don't have a good understanding of the system then don't buy anymore until you do.

 

[GregT]

Yes, I completely understand that. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my post.

I'm asking how my two types of points differ. Especially given the background I have provided. How does this impact me? And, my future?

Swaits,

I wouldn't worry too much about the difference between legacy/Trust points right now. As you know, Marriott is selling points to purchasers -- and the points themselves are backed by a bunch of weeks that are sitting in a Trust, and you own a small (tiny) percentage of those weeks. From a legal perspective, these Trust Points differ from the Legacy Points that you receive when you relinquish a certain year's usage of your existing owned week. (Edited: and I see JimF has done a nice job explaining the buckets).

But at the moment, Marriott is treating the Trust Points that you purchased exactly the same as those Legacy Points and you can combine the two types of points for the purposes of making reservations. This is significant because 12 months ago, there were reports about the inability to combine points and they didn't work that well together, but those issues have been resolved. However, with respect making a reservation, at the moment, there is no real advantage that your Trust Points versus Legacy Points but some of us speculate that one day Trust Points will have additional benefits versus Legacy Points.

So enjoy your trips -- read TUG -- rent more points if you need them (don't buy more even though the sales team will tell you that you need too) -- and take great vacations.

When you visit Kauai Lagoons, can you see if you can find out from the sales team if the current-discounted points requirement is expected to continue through 2013? One of our TUGging colleagues wants to go there in late 2013 and is trying to figure out what the points requirements are going to be. Any information would be appreciated!

All the best,

Greg

 

[swaits]

Thanks to both of you.

So, practically, for someone like me who only uses points and converts all weeks to points every year, they're effectively the same. The questions is if it'll stay that way in the future.

I feel I already have a good understanding of the points system. Just not this one issue. I was reserving and managing my points online long before Marriott made it public. At our last sales presentation (Park City Mountainside in May), we were basically "set free" with our MR gift after 15 minutes because the guy clearly had nothing to tell us.

And no way in hell am I buying any more! We can use it, but it's work. I know, feel sorry for me. But we may attempt the rental thing for some of our "clean" 2013 points to offset some MFs.

I will ask at KL if the discounted point prices will remain in effect through 2013 and report back. We won't be there until October though.

Thanks again!

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning

3 buckets...

sorry PerryM some plagarism here...

#1 pre 6/20/10 deeded weeks....Legacy weeks ---Exchange Company

#2 Trust inventory (unsold inventory and new inventory after 6/20/10

#3 IOU inventory

Inventory given up by deeded week owners, for MR points, DC points foreclosures etc... go into Exchange Company...

Trust inventory stays in Trust bucket

IOU inventory is when a Trust owner plucks Legacy inventory from Exchange...MVCD puts equivalent Trust inventory in Exchange company..this accounts for comingling...

It works like this... On day #1 Legacy points could only access Exchange inventory...however, Trust could access Trust and Exchange. Everytime a Trust player grabbed a Legacy inventory from Exchange an "equivalent" piece of the Trust went into the IOU which is also accessible to Legacy

After 2 years the pools comingle because Trust owners want to go skiing at Park City and Legacy owners want to go to Kauai Lagoons...

Trust?Legacy are legally distinct but functionally similiar... If you hadn't read TUG you would not have known the difference...

The sales peeps use this difference under some misguided threat of how you will be left out if you don't purchase Trust...Another sales peep was using the "all points are equal" shpiel to sell a bundled package with a resale week enrolled in DC....

sales reps with contradictions.... who would have thunk it!!!!

enjoy your vacations and join TUG...

 

[ral]

But at the moment, Marriott is treating the Trust Points that you purchased exactly the same as those Legacy Points and you can combine the two types of points for the purposes of making reservations. This is significant because 12 months ago, there were reports about the inability to combine points and they didn't work that well together, but those issues have been resolved. However, with respect making a reservation, at the moment, there is no real advantage that your Trust Points versus Legacy Points but some of us speculate that one day Trust Points will have additional benefits versus Legacy Points.

Just making sure I am understanding the above paragraph correctly. When you say that Marriott is treating the Trust Points exactly the same as the Legacy Points in making reservations, I think it must be emphatically stated that this equality occurs only in the DC exchange, not with the Trust Inventory, and the property you are attempting to reserve with Legacy Points must already be in the DC Exchange. To my knowledge, the Trust Inventory cannot be directly accessed by Legacy Points even in combination with Trust Points. What would make this completely transparent is a statement from MVC stating that if requested inventory exists in the Trust, but not already in the DC Exchange, the DVC would move that inventory to the DC Exchange for access by Legacy and/or Trust Points. At that time, Marriott is treating the Trust Points exactly the same as the Legacy Points in making reservations. On the last presentation I attended, the salesman kept saying that for reservation purposes the Trust Points and the Legacy Points are both able to directly access Trust Inventory. I respectfully disagreed, and unless a major legal change takes place within the MVC, I don't think this will ever occur.

 

[ral]

good morning

3 buckets...

sorry PerryM some plagarism here...

#1 pre 6/20/10 deeded weeks....Legacy weeks ---Exchange Company

#2 Trust inventory (unsold inventory and new inventory after 6/20/10

#3 IOU inventory

Inventory given up by deeded week owners, for MR points, DC points foreclosures etc... go into Exchange Company...

Trust inventory stays in Trust bucket

IOU inventory is when a Trust owner plucks Legacy inventory from Exchange...MVCD puts equivalent Trust inventory in Exchange company..this accounts for comingling...

It works like this... On day #1 Legacy points could only access Exchange inventory...however, Trust could access Trust and Exchange. Everytime a Trust player grabbed a Legacy inventory from Exchange an "equivalent" piece of the Trust went into the IOU which is also accessible to Legacy

After 2 years the pools comingle because Trust owners want to go skiing at Park City and Legacy owners want to go to Kauai Lagoons...

Trust?Legacy are legally distinct but functionally similiar... If you hadn't read TUG you would not have known the difference...

The sales peeps use this difference under some misguided threat of how you will be left out if you don't purchase Trust...Another sales peep was using the "all points are equal" shpiel to sell a bundled package with a resale week enrolled in DC....

sales reps with contradictions.... who would have thunk it!!!!

enjoy your vacations and join TUG...

The big problem here is the word "EQUIVALENT". Equivalent in terms of what? Equivalent with regard to total number of points? eg., three 1,000 point weeks put into DC Exchange from Trust for one 3,000 point week received from the Exchange. Equivalent with regard to season? eg., Platinum given for Platinum received or 3 Gold weeks put into DC Exchange from Trust for one Platinum Plus week received from DC Exchange. The various permutations are mind-boggling! If only MVC would provide complete clarity and members given completely transparent information regarding this situation. Then and only then, will Marriott begin to repair the once well regarded relationship between itself and Legacy owners.

 

[CashEddie]

Just making sure I am understanding the above paragraph correctly. When you say that Marriott is treating the Trust Points exactly the same as the Legacy Points in making reservations, I think it must be emphatically stated that this equality occurs only in the DC exchange, not with the Trust Inventory, and the property you are attempting to reserve with Legacy Points must already be in the DC Exchange. To my knowledge, the Trust Inventory cannot be directly accessed by Legacy Points even in combination with Trust Points. What would make this completely transparent is a statement from MVC stating that if requested inventory exists in the Trust, but not already in the DC Exchange, the DVC would move that inventory to the DC Exchange for access by Legacy and/or Trust Points. At that time, Marriott is treating the Trust Points exactly the same as the Legacy Points in making reservations. On the last presentation I attended, the salesman kept saying that for reservation purposes the Trust Points and the Legacy Points are both able to directly access Trust Inventory. I respectfully disagreed, and unless a major legal change takes place within the MVC, I don't think this will ever occur.

Rakl,

You bring up some very good points. I was making a reservation into OceanWatch for next summer. I was told there was a OF available but it was in the trust so I couldn't book it. I only have enrolled points and I rented some additional enrolled points to make the reservation but in this case I was "locked out" of the trust inventory that was available at OW.

The question then becomes: How does this OF trust only OW get transfered into the exhange company? Since pure trust owners don't have a home resort so how does Marriott know when to deposit OW trust week into the DC exchange company to fufil a request be either legacy or trust owners? (According to Puck, once the week gets into the exchange company, its fair game to be reserved by any owner as long as you have enough points to reserve it)

I'm gussing the exhange between the two ownerships would play out like such:

1. Legacy Owner deposits a OW week into DC exchange company and gets X number of DC points that can be used for exchange.

2. That legacy OW week is now "tagged" in the system as being available because its been deposited to DC exchange company. Its fair game to all to book.

3. Pure trust owner books Marbella with his points and gets his ressie. Since pure trust owner doesn't have a home resort, his points are spread across all trust only inventory and when he deposits those trust only points representing the trust inventory, his points start to fill all the tiny buckets for each week in the trust.

4. Once enough points from pure trust owners gets deposited into the DC exhange company to fill that trust only OceanWatch week, it gets pulled into the DC exchange company and is now fair game for anyone to book.

So in my case with the OF room at Oceanwatch, that week had not been pulled into the DC exhange as yet because not enough trust points had been deposited to pull in that trust week. Now someone with pure trust points would have "direct" access to that week since its all in trust.

So when you purchase extra trust points with your legacy enrolled points, it helps fill those trust buckets faster to get those trust weeks into the exchange where they are fair game to all owners. Now I understand when the sales people say you will have "access" to the trust inventory if you purchase additional trust points because you now become an extra force pushing those trust weeks into the DC exchange company.

 

[GregT]

I think it must be emphatically stated that this equality [of Trust Points and Legacy Points] occurs only in the DC exchange, not with the Trust Inventory, and the property you are attempting to reserve with Legacy Points must already be in the DC Exchange. To my knowledge, the Trust Inventory cannot be directly accessed by Legacy Points even in combination with Trust Points. What would make this completely transparent is a statement from MVC stating that if requested inventory exists in the Trust, but not already in the DC Exchange, the DVC would move that inventory to the DC Exchange for access by Legacy and/or Trust Points.

Ral,

I've underlined the point of your post for discussion purposes, and added a [comment]. You are technically correct that the Legacy Points are not able to directly access Trust Inventory. You've also pointed out the lack of a transparency in how Marriott is handling the inventory. Both good and appropriate comments.

But I have an example of why I believe -- at the moment, that Trust Points are functionally = to Legacy Points. The thing that intrigues me is not whether only Trust Points can access Trust Inventory, what intrigues me is that, it's not clear if you can access Trust Inventory with Trust Points?

At the moment, I have doubts -- and an experiment that suggests that I can not access Trust Inventory with Trust Points.

I rented 1,000 Trust Points from a TUGger. I was curious if these would supercharge my legacy points (they don't) and I was curious if they would let me directly access the Trust (they don't).

The Trust has multiple fixed week 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 2BR Ocean-Fronts at MOC Lahaina Villas. You can see them in the Recorded Trust Documents thread and filings. There's nothing tricky here -- no reservation required by Marriott -- these fixed week/units reside in the Trust, and presumably for a Trust Point owner to directly reserve.

But if I search the online inventory looking for a single night's reservation (950 points) in September 2013 , I don't see anything. I should be able to reserve that night because 1) I'm Premier Plus and can book a single night and 2) I'm using Trust Points and 3) I know it exists in the Trust. The inventory exists. I'm not even asking them to combine with Legacy Points, i have 100% of the Trust Points needed for the single night.

So, how does Trust inventory became accessible to a Trust Point owner? Not sure.

There are a number of potential answers to this situation:

1) When you rent a Trust Point and it is transferred, it loses its status as a Trust Point
- this would be a nice thing to disclose

2) Marriott takes awhile to actually get the Trust Weeks loaded into the online inventory
- this would be a nice thing to disclose also

3) Online inventory only represents the Direct Exchange inventory, and a VOA can find the Trust inventory
- this too would be a nice thing to disclose -- but I don't think this is the reason as FT couldn't get a VOA to find Trust inventory in a similar experiment a few months ago

4) Marriott is selectively holding back their most precious Trust Inventory for Trust owners and not making it available to non-Trust Point purchasers.

I do not know which of the above is the reason, perhaps all of them. But if it is #4, that how do we have confidence in our ability to get reservations? The implications of #4 are important, and worthy of its own thread, if it turns out to be true.

So....long answer to your comments above, my apologies.

In summary, yes the technical difference between Trust Points and Legacy Points is that only Trust Points can directly access the Trust Inventory, but the way that Marriott is (currently) managing the Trust Inventory, it's not clear that anything can directly access the Trust Inventory.

Interesting stuff....

All the best,

Greg

 

[GregT]

Deleted -- duplicate post

 

[ral]

Ral,


4) Marriott is selectively holding back their most precious Trust Inventory for Trust owners and not making it available to non-Trust Point purchasers.

I do not know which of the above is the reason, perhaps all of them. But if it is #4, that how do we have confidence in our ability to get reservations? The implications of #4 are important, and worthy of its own thread, if it turns out to be true.

So....long answer to your comments above, my apologies.

In summary, yes the technical difference between Trust Points and Legacy Points is that only Trust Points can directly access the Trust Inventory, but the way that Marriott is (currently) managing the Trust Inventory, it's not clear that anything can directly access the Trust Inventory.

Interesting stuff....

All the best,

Greg

All four points are very interesting. I have a fifth possibility as to why you were unable to see this inventory: Perhaps Marriott is saving its most valuable properties for multiple night stays and not releasing inventory on a one night only basis for those prized properties. One of the touted benefits of the new system was offering any number of night bookings, but maybe it isn't exactly that way for all properties. Again, full clarity of the system would be most helpful for all concerned. Thanks for contributing to this topic. You always bring up interesting insights.

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning...

yes...

that is the $64K query...

what is equivalent?????

nobody knows....

 

[jont]

Just the fact that this program has been in place for over 2 years now and we still don't know/ have't been told these answers is very disturbing to me.
I would like to believe that Marriott doesn't have a good handle on this yet and that they are flying by the seat of their pants.
But something tells me they know exactly what they are doing.:annoyed:

 

[FractionalTraveler]

Greg,

I believe there is a #5 option as well.

Marriott is Renting these weeks and making lots of money and NOT allowing me the Trust owner to get the reservation.

I have suspected this for a while through my own experimentation.

 

[SueDonJ]

I think we have as much of a chance for Marriott to disclose all of its inventory secrets with the DC as we've had over the years with the Weeks system. Which is to say, they'll tell us only as much as they're required to tell us and we'll have to continue to try to learn more through experience.

The question of whether transferred Points retain their Trust/Legacy origin when transferred is a good one, but I think the question of how and when Marriott elects to make Trust inventory available through the Exchange Company would go much further to explain inventory controls. So far it appears we've seen a change that makes it possible for VOA's to sometimes instantly perform that transaction, but we have no idea of the exact circumstances that must be in place in order for them to do so.

Specific to Greg's questions about Trust inventory and availability, I think it's quite possible that Trust inventory is held back for Trust Members - not necessarily Trust Points users - in much the same way that Marriott can finagle Weeks inventory for Weeks Owners and II bulk bankings. And we still don't know all the dynamics of that system.

**********
(now with my Moderator hat on ...)

Greg, as a Marriott Owner I appreciate all the finer details and nuances that we discuss here on TUG. But as the board mod, I think it's impossible for posters and readers to keep to a single finer detail in each thread. If we were to break out every specific question to a separate thread, we'd have umpteen threads with duplicate posts among all of them. For that reason I'm merging these posts into the already-ongoing thread in which this topic was first raised.

However, in the event that we're lucky enough to learn from Marriott any official, published explanations of the finer details, that info will always be allowed to stand on its own. Thanks for understanding.

 

[GregT]

All four points are very interesting. I have a fifth possibility as to why you were unable to see this inventory: Perhaps Marriott is saving its most valuable properties for multiple night stays and not releasing inventory on a one night only basis for those prized properties. One of the touted benefits of the new system was offering any number of night bookings, but maybe it isn't exactly that way for all properties. Again, full clarity of the system would be most helpful for all concerned. Thanks for contributing to this topic. You always bring up interesting insights.

Ral,

You may be spot on with this theory -- I watched with interest how Ko Olina had 12/13 month availability up until about June 15 2013 -- and then the timing of loading inventory during the summer become spotty (but eventually did appear with some consistency). Maui Ocean Club, by comparison, never had reliable inventory. When it did appear, it was often broken weeks.

We may learn over time that Marriott is managing its most prized weeks carefully -- but how is it getting released?

Greg,

I believe there is a #5 option as well.

Marriott is Renting these weeks and making lots of money and NOT allowing me the Trust owner to get the reservation.

I have suspected this for a while through my own experimentation.

FT, you may be right, but I hope not. That's a whole new can of worms. I don't have a problem if they rent the stuff that's not yet in the Trust, but renting the weeks that's in the Trust before a Trust owner can reserve it? Uh oh.

Best,

Greg


Edited: Sue, no problem with the combined thread -- thx!

 

[gblotter]

Greg,

I believe there is a #5 option as well.

Marriott is Renting these weeks and making lots of money and NOT allowing me the Trust owner to get the reservation.

I have suspected this for a while through my own experimentation.

Ding ding ding ding ding - we have a winner, folks.

I would be shocked if this is NOT the case.

MVW quarterly report confirms that there is a lot of revenue from rentals.

 

[m61376]

Greg and FT- Wouldn't it be possible to put #4 to rest if you coordinated with each other and checked whether the inventory seen with rented trust points (assuming you still have them in your account) was any different than seen with owned trust points? You're right- it would be good to know if there was a difference. I think that may be getting things too complicated though- although there's so much convolution already anything's possible.

 

[MALC9990]

To be honest - as a newly enrolled DC legacy points member from European resorts I simply cannot understand why Marriott made the DC points system so COMPLEX.

I am also an owner of points in the Asia Pacific points system. In that I own 30,000 points - basically equivalent to 3000 DC Trust points. In the AP points system, owners of weeks at Phuket Beach Club, can if they purchased their AP points appropriately, exchange their weeks at PBC for AP points - these are known as overlay points. You get the same number of points for your week as it takes to reserve the equivalent week. In my case my Plat weeks get 32,700 AP points.

The main point here is that points are points in the AP system. So I can exchange a week at PBC for 32,700 AP points and then I have 62,700 AP points to play with that year. Those points are all the same - there is no distinction, no different buckets.

So if Marriott set up the AP system that way - why not the DC system - I just do not get it.

At some point the remaining Asian weeks resort (PBC) and the ASIA Pacific points system will be rolled into the DC. At that point Marriott face a challenge - how do they merge the two points systems. All the AP points owners have become used to the fact that points are points - whether purchased from Marriott or overlay points from a week.

I know Marriott already have people working on bringing the PBC weeks owners into the DC - that will be fun for those PBC owners like myself who already "enrolled" their PBC weeks in the AP points overlay scheme. Can my weeks be "enrolled" in two different Marriott points systems ?

I've now taken 3 of my European weeks and exchanged them for DC legacy points.. That is for 2013. I plan to bank those points into 2014, trade another week or two from 2014 for points and look to use them for a vacation in either the Caribbean (NOT Aruba) or possibly CA and Hawaii. Since we always try to avoid peak seasons - what can I expect to get I wonder?

 

[dioxide45]

Greg, Rather interesting find. The thing is though that September is not peak time in Hawaii, so I don't know why they would be holding that inventory back for Trust owners. It is possible that they are holding on to it to place in the rental pool on Marriott.com, but since you can really only search on Marriott.com at the 11 month mark, there is no way to prove that at this point.

I suppose it is also possible that those trust points when transferred get go through the exchange company and somehow "converted" to exchange company points. The only way to prove that would be to do as m61376 suggests and have a trust owner with trust points to try the same reservation. If they can see that inventory and you can't it somehow indicates that transferred points don't retain their "trust" designation upon transfer.

 

[GregT]

All,

Okay, I went back through the MOC weeks (I track what's deposited into the Trust) and I believe there are 14 fixed weeks in a 2BR OF, that are fixed weeks 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40.

I called Marriott VOA this morning and was told that there isn't a single night available in September 2013 in a 2BR OF.

FT (or someone who directly purchased Trust Points), can you call Marriott and see if they give you the same response for Sept 2013??

Can you ask for a single night (to see if Trust Points loses some of their booking ability when transferred), and also a multi-night stay (since perhaps they require several nights to make their best properties available)?

Thanks very much,

Greg

 

[FractionalTraveler]

All,

Okay, I went back through the MOC weeks (I track what's deposited into the Trust) and I believe there are 14 fixed weeks in a 2BR OF, that are fixed weeks 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40.

I called Marriott VOA this morning and was told that there isn't a single night available in September 2013 in a 2BR OF.

FT (or someone who directly purchased Trust Points), can you call Marriott and see if they give you the same response for Sept 2013??

Can you ask for a single night (to see if Trust Points loses some of their booking ability when transferred), and also a multi-night stay (since perhaps they require several nights to make their best properties available)?

Thanks very much,

Greg

Greg,

OK. Took me three tries to get thru. I couldn't wait the 15-20 minute hold times. Finally got to a VOA.

Yes, VOA confirmed MOC availability for MOC 2-BR OF September 2013.

Here is what is available for 1-Night using my Trust Points:

Week 36 Sept. 1-3
Week 38 Sept. 15, 20
Week 39 Sept. 22
Week 40 Sept. 29

I also checked the website and got same results (confirmed points were all from Trust). There is also availability for 2-3 nights but not a full week anywhere in September 2013 right now.

The DC is really taking its toll on the weeks breakage for sure. I have been observing the effects of breakage on the system for a while now. Based upon my observations, I expect that as the DC continues to proliferate the MVCI reservation system, less and less full weeks in prime locations at prime times of the year will be available to other forms of traditional reservations.

Somehow, I think that the skim was partly instituted to recover lost revenue from orphaned days that will go un-used because of DC.

I would love to get access to some of those orphaned days. Living in Florida, there are a lot of short trips I could make with these orphaned days.

 

[slum808]

Somehow, I think that the skim was partly instituted to recover lost revenue from orphaned days that will go un-used because of DC.

I would love to get access to some of those orphaned days. Living in Florida, there are a lot of short trips I could make with these orphaned days.

I'm not sure I understand how orphaned days turns into lost revenue. If the weeks and points are already sold, Its should be the owners who are eating it. If 10% of all available days go unused due to breakage, then 10% of the total points will have no where to make a reservation. So I guess if Marriott skimed all the legacy owners of 15%, then there would still be sufficient supply.