Still confused on Trust vs. Legacy

[FractionalTraveler]

I'm not sure I understand how orphaned days turns into lost revenue. If the weeks and points are already sold, Its should be the owners who are eating it. If 10% of all available days go unused due to breakage, then 10% of the total points will have no where to make a reservation. So I guess if Marriott skimed all the legacy owners of 15%, then there would still be sufficient supply.

You are not thinking like a business person.

If the unit is empty and you didn't fill it with a reservation, you lost an opportunity to make additional cash. In the lodging industry this metric is called "REVPAR" (i.e. Revenue per available room). The average is usually reported for hotel establishments and this metric is used to compute revised nightly fees and is a predictor for the relative strength of the market adjusted for seasonality and geography.

 

[MALC9990]

This issue of broken weeks is where I think Marriott missed a trick that the Asia Pacific Club points system has got fixed. In fact it has never been a major problem for that points system.

Here is how works. AP points owner may book stays of 7 or more nights from 365 days before check in. A stay of from 3 to 6 nights can be booked from 180 days before check in. A stay of 1 or 2 nights may only be booked from 90 days before check in. Only premier plus points members may override these rules. A premier plus owner may book any thing from 395 days before check in.

Now to get to premier plus in the AP points system an owner must have purchased 65,000 points - basically that would cost 65,000 USD. Overlay points from weeks owners enrolled weeks DO NOT COUNT for status only purchased points count for status.

So you can see that AP points owners looking for stays of 7 or more contiguous nights get a massive head start on those looking for only 6 or less nights and the owner looking for just 1 or 2 nights can only do so 90 days out from check in.

This approach really goes some way to stopping too many broken weeks in the resorts and there are not going to be many premier plus owners with the 65,000 USD spend required to qualify - I personally have only ever met one such owner.

There is no Premier Status level - so only the few premier plus owners who have spent 65,000 USD or more have the ability to book just 1 or 2 nights from 395 days before check in. Almost all AP points owners have to wait until 90 days before check in to book 1 or 2 nights and 180 days before check in to book 3 to 6 nights.

I think these are more restrictive reservation rules than the DC since in the DC enrolled owners can achieve premier plus status.

So once again Marriott seems to have ignored the experience of the Asia Pacific points system which has been up and running for about 5 years now.

As an enrolled owner with Premier Plus status in the DC I can reserve a single night 13 months before check in, as an overlay weeks owner in the AP system with insufficient purchased AP points to make premier plus stats I can only reserve a single night 90 days before check in.

I believe that these small differences help preserve unbroken weeks in the AP system until 180 days before check in and that whole weeks get taken in that 265 to 180 day period. Only where owners reserve more than 7 nights do broken weeks start to appear and these odd days unused in the weeks are what the owners coming into the system at 180 and 90 days before check in can see as available to reserve because by then most if not all of the full weeks will have been reserved.

 

[GregT]

Here is what is available for 1-Night using my Trust Points:

Week 36 Sept. 1-3
Week 38 Sept. 15, 20
Week 39 Sept. 22
Week 40 Sept. 29

I also checked the website and got same results (confirmed points were all from Trust). There is also availability for 2-3 nights but not a full week anywhere in September 2013 right now.

FT,

That's really interesting -- and suggests that transferred Trust Points don't have full access to the Trust. I'm surprised, because Disney (which is a model for marriott in many ways), when you transfer points for a property, they keep their home resort booking advantage.

If this finding is confirmed, it suggests that truly only Trust Points Purchasers will get to directly access the Trust -- and that Trust Point rentals carry no different value than a Legacy Point rental. Interesting stuff...

Thanks for posting this.

Best,

Greg

 

[SueDonJ]

FT,

That's really interesting -- and suggests that transferred Trust Points don't have full access to the Trust. I'm surprised, because Disney (which is a model for marriott in many ways), when you transfer points for a property, they keep their home resort booking advantage.

If this finding is confirmed, it suggests that truly only Trust Points Purchasers will get to directly access the Trust -- and that Trust Point rentals carry no different value than a Legacy Point rental. Interesting stuff...

Thanks for posting this.

Best,

Greg

I agree, very interesting. I'm not surprised in that it's similar to the Owners' status as a Stan/Prem/PremPlus Member not transferring with the transfer of Points. But I do wonder if there is language anywhere in the Trust ownership docs which supports the non-transference of Trust Points status, and if so, has anyone found it?

 

[jimf41]

It would seem to me that if a transfer of trust points to a non-trust owner occurs they would have to place those points in the exchange pool as the legacy owner has nowhere else to put them. Trust points taken out of the trust and placed in the exchange pool can no longer get inventory in the trust just as legacy weeks placed in the exchange pool can no longer get legacy weeks inventory.

I would think that a trust point exchange between two trust point owners would keep the ability of the transferred points to access trust inventory.

 

[fluke]

FT,

That's really interesting -- and suggests that transferred Trust Points don't have full access to the Trust. I'm surprised, because Disney (which is a model for marriott in many ways), when you transfer points for a property, they keep their home resort booking advantage.

If this finding is confirmed, it suggests that truly only Trust Points Purchasers will get to directly access the Trust -- and that Trust Point rentals carry no different value than a Legacy Point rental. Interesting stuff...

Thanks for posting this.

Best,

Greg

This also begs the question about banked or borrowed trust points. Will they maintain their trust status?

I know at least one other point system (DRI) where banked or borrowed points lose their home collection reservation preference.

 

[dioxide45]

This also begs the question about banked or borrowed trust points. Will they maintain their trust status?

I know at least one other point system (DRI) where banked or borrowed points lose their home collection reservation preference.

One would think that banked/borrowed points have to pass through the exchange company. Since the underlying inventory will not be used that year by the member it has to go somewhere, the exchange company would be the place. Wonder how it actually works in practice.

 

[dioxide45]

The DC is really taking its toll on the weeks breakage for sure. I have been observing the effects of breakage on the system for a while now. Based upon my observations, I expect that as the DC continues to proliferate the MVCI reservation system, less and less full weeks in prime locations at prime times of the year will be available to other forms of traditional reservations.

I simply don't understand the breakage. Only 5% of the ownership base can reserve single nights at the 13 month mark. That is a small population. Also, who is booking single nights in Hawaii? Perhaps to add on to an existing weeks reservation?

Something else to consider, only 50% of the inventory is used for 13 month reservations. 50% is reserved for 12 month reservations. Trying this test at the 12 month mark may be a good idea also.

 

[FractionalTraveler]

Ral,

You may be spot on with this theory -- I watched with interest how Ko Olina had 12/13 month availability up until about June 15 2013 -- and then the timing of loading inventory during the summer become spotty (but eventually did appear with some consistency). Maui Ocean Club, by comparison, never had reliable inventory. When it did appear, it was often broken weeks.

We may learn over time that Marriott is managing its most prized weeks carefully -- but how is it getting released?




FT, you may be right, but I hope not. That's a whole new can of worms. I don't have a problem if they rent the stuff that's not yet in the Trust, but renting the weeks that's in the Trust before a Trust owner can reserve it? Uh oh.

Best,

Greg


Edited: Sue, no problem with the combined thread -- thx!

Greg,

Maybe they are holding back some inventory for their Fall Travel Deals at 25% off all MVCI properties. These are usually announced right after labor day each year. Their rental business is very stong now.

 

[swaits]

When you visit Kauai Lagoons, can you see if you can find out from the sales team if the current-discounted points requirement is expected to continue through 2013? One of our TUGging colleagues wants to go there in late 2013 and is trying to figure out what the points requirements are going to be. Any information would be appreciated!

GregT, back from our trip, and dug up this old thread. I didn't forget you! We San Diegans stick together.

Anyway, I asked our sales guy (Gordon) at KL how long the discounts would last, he either didn't know or was playing dumb. Couldn't get anything out of him.

I also asked for his view of gaining Trust inventory vs. Legacy. He gave us an explanation, but in the end his job is to sell points, so of course he wanted to make them look good. Basically he said Trust owners get priority to Trust inventory, and vice versa. That Hybrid owners have the best of both. But, like I said. Salesman.

I also asked details on the OF units at KL. He said that two of them got sold as condos before the property was converted. So, two of those (out of approximately a dozen?) OF units are permanent residences. Then he said, when they were still selling at Waiohai pre-DC, they found themselves low on inventory and requested for some number of units from KL to sell. So, some of those units did get sold as weeks. I don't remember the quantities.

I also asked about the development situation. He was pretty sure Marriott was going to eventually finish the development. Honestly, the "Ritz foundation" is rather ugly. He says Marriott has spent millions on building permits there, and that's why he thinks it'll be developed. He also said he thinks that Dukes is looking at opening a new (different brand) restaurant in that really run down building at KL right near the fitness center along with some retail shops.

He also offered the just under $10/point price if you buy some huge quantity. I don't remember those numbers either because, thanks to TUG, I know better and didn't pay too much attention.

 

[GregT]

GregT, back from our trip, and dug up this old thread. I didn't forget you! We San Diegans stick together.

Anyway, I asked our sales guy (Gordon) at KL how long the discounts would last, he either didn't know or was playing dumb. Couldn't get anything out of him.

I also asked for his view of gaining Trust inventory vs. Legacy. He gave us an explanation, but in the end his job is to sell points, so of course he wanted to make them look good. Basically he said Trust owners get priority to Trust inventory, and vice versa. That Hybrid owners have the best of both. But, like I said. Salesman.

I also asked details on the OF units at KL. He said that two of them got sold as condos before the property was converted. So, two of those (out of approximately a dozen?) OF units are permanent residences. Then he said, when they were still selling at Waiohai pre-DC, they found themselves low on inventory and requested for some number of units from KL to sell. So, some of those units did get sold as weeks. I don't remember the quantities.

I also asked about the development situation. He was pretty sure Marriott was going to eventually finish the development. Honestly, the "Ritz foundation" is rather ugly. He says Marriott has spent millions on building permits there, and that's why he thinks it'll be developed. He also said he thinks that Dukes is looking at opening a new (different brand) restaurant in that really run down building at KL right near the fitness center along with some retail shops.

He also offered the just under $10/point price if you buy some huge quantity. I don't remember those numbers either because, thanks to TUG, I know better and didn't pay too much attention.

Thank you for the feedback from my fellow San Diegan! I hope you enjoyed the trip, and thank you very much for the information on the property.

Best,

Greg