Starwood buying/selling price database?

[aeroflygirl]

Please add:
Section within resort
Mandatory or Voluntary
StarOption Value

 

[LisaRex]

Starwood location
section (if applicable)
View (if applicable)
EY or EOY
Season (Platinum, Gold, Silver)
Fixed or Float
If fixed, week
Size of unit (studio, 1 bdrm, 2 bdrm, 3 bdrm)
L/O or no? (lock-out; can you split your unit?)
month/year of sale
Sales price:
Closing costs:
Seller: Developer/resale
If resale, venue: Website (e.g. SellMyTimeShareNow, Redweek, eBay), Broker
Mandatory or Voluntary
StarOption Value (studio/1 bdrm/2 bdrm/3 bdrm)

 

[Fredm]

Be Careful

This "database" is a good idea, in theory.

I have a couple of thoughts to contribute.

You should be very clear on the purpose it is to serve. For it to be worthwhile information, the audience served by it should b clearly defined.
For example, is it an owners guide to help them determine a fair market value of their shares? Or, is it a buyers guide to help them determine what price they should pay?

It is easy to say that the data is what it is. It serves both equally. But common sense would refute it. The fact of the matter is that the contributor population is limited to those who participate here on TUG.

If you are a seller, your buyer is likely not a member of this board.
That buyer is not influenced by the data.
But, if you are a buyer, the information is relevant.

Assuming both buyer and seller have access to the same information, the buyer and seller are almost assuredly not transacting with each other.

In fact, those owners here who are considering the sale of their share probably will outright resent a buyer who gloats over the "steal" of a deal they just made. Marketplace psychology naturally leans toward establishing market price by the lowest price paid. No one wants to pay more than someone else did.
Bragging rights rule. From this very mindset "fish stories" are born.

The integrity of the information is further compromised by the only trait that can be trusted; self-interest.
I am not simply being skeptical. It is the way of things.

Look, lets be honest. One does not need special powers of observation to recognize that on this very board helpful and sincere intentions co-exist with one's self interest without apparent contradiction. Information is shared until it is counter to one's self-interest.
Since almost all are Starwood owners, views change when owners and buyers become sellers.

With this fact of life as a backdrop, a seemingly good idea can become a bad one. Be careful what you ask for.

Having said all of this, you may want to consider adding the following information to the profile:

Use year data. - Who received it, and who paid the annual fees associated with the use? It is worth a couple of thousand dollars in the transaction.

Closing costs. - How much and who paid it. Buyer, seller, or shared?

Who is reporting: buyer or seller? If buyer, only the above is applicable to the price paid.
If seller, the net proceeds are relevant. What were sale costs? These influence the accepted sale price. If not relevant to the data base objective, simply acknowledge it is a buyers data base.

DavidnRobin bottom-lined it: "my point is - that it can go both ways - and unless everyone participated fully (and honestly) - the data will be skewed - and only really gives advantage to the buyer. "

Again, every owner is likely to be a seller at some time.

Disclosure: I am a broker. Before discounting my remarks, consider this: I am the only one to whom the outcome is irrelevant. I earn commission on the sale, irrespective of price.

I do, however, strongly believe that softening markets help no one in the long run. Not buyers, not sellers, and certainly not overall activity (from which I do benefit).

Fredm

 

[DavidnRobin]

TUG Name (optional)
There is a Plat+ season also for SVO (event week?)

If resale, were MFs included in sales price? (week reserved?)
If SVO- was a retro/requal involved? (what was requaled?)
If SVO - was ExpPkg used? (how many SPs as incentive?)
If SVO - where was the Sales Office? (sales person?)

If SVO - did the salesperson give you misinfo? [YES]

Note: {my opinion} There are sellers/brokers in the TS biz that will not appreciate putting this info in public (for good reason). Unless a complete price range of units are represented and a large number of people participate - it would not be a good statistical measure. This may not be a good measure of value, and could set unrealistic expectations.

Not unlike the value of stock sold in the stock market... price is based on fundamental company value, comparison to comparable stocks, macro-economic changes, and importantly, PERCEPTION of value.

PS. like i said...

 

[DavidnRobin]

In general I agree w/ FredM (and always appreciare his being forthright)

To play Devil's advocate - the info of a home's value is not dissimiliar - price info is readily available and life goes on. The problem w/ TSs is that price info is not readily available.

 

[DeniseM]

I'm discussing it with Brian now. The new format that TUG is introducing for the review/resort pages might be able to accommodate this. I'll get back to you.

 

[Fredm]

In general I agree w/ FredM (and always appreciare his being forthright)

To play Devil's advocate - the info of a home's value is not dissimiliar - price info is readily available and life goes on. The problem w/ TSs is that price info is not readily available.

Exactly! Your description of the problem precisely defines the issue.
There is no broad-based, impartial, fact filled, multiple listing repository.
This certainly will not serve as one. Information will be offered selectively and voluntarily by those motivated by their own guidance. And, it will only represent a narrow segment of the transactions entered into.

All I am saying is everyone should be clear about what purpose it will serve.
Just because it is offered as a well-intentioned idea, that sounds good on the surface, it may not be once reflected upon.

 

[DeniseM]

After discussing this with Brian, I think the best course of action is to wait and see if we can accomplish our goals with the new format that TUG is going to adopt for the resort/review pages.

 

[tomandrobin]

Can we keep the sticky just relavent to new sale prices and incentives?

Trying to keep resale prices may be to difficult, plus how can validate any resale price?

 

[DeniseM]

Can we keep the sticky just relavent to new sale prices and incentives?

There is just as much, or more interest in buying resale, so I don't see any reason to limit it to new sale prices.

Also - at this point, we are going to try out the new TUG historical sales feature first, and see if that will meet our needs better than a sticky. I understand that the goal is for it to be beta tested this quarter. I will see if there is a way to place a link to the feature in our Owner Resources sticky.

Trying to keep resale prices may be to difficult, plus how can validate any resale price?

I don't think there is any way to verify any sales prices - developer or resale. However, since we constantly discuss prices and are asked about prices, having the info. available in an organized manner will be helpful. At this point people can post any prices they want on the board. When the new features are available, people will be able to post their prices there.

If someone is a regular poster, I am going to believe any figures they post. If a newbie comes along and posts something completely out of line, there is nothing we can do about it, but we have enough experience here to take it with a grain of salt.

If someone gets mad because they paid too much and they see that others got better deals, well join the crowd!

My point of view is that any information is better than no information. People who prefer to keep their sales info. private, certainly may do so.

 

[rocky]

For me, the people that actively post on tug are well aware of what the market generally is for their timeshare units. And I think that's enough. Color me not in favor.

 

[DeniseM]

Hi Rocky - I was thinking it would be helpful for the newbies who show up asking pricing questions all the time. Since we openly discuss pricing info. on the board anyway, referring them to a database won't reveal any secrets, but would be more organized and convenient than repeating the same info. over and over.

It's totally voluntary, so some people may not want to reveal that kind of info., or may just not want to go to the bother of listing it. Either way, it's all good!

 

[LisaRex]

Rather than rely on stickies, as we don't want too many of them, I think it might be helpful to start threads that are clearly titled so that guests can actually use the search feature to easily find the information they are seeking.

For instance, if I want to find the current developer prices on WKV, I really don't know what to search. Why not try to standardize the vernacular we use so that it's easily searched:

"Kierland current pricing"
"Kaanapali current pricing"
"Princeville current pricing"
"Aruba current pricing"
"Steamboat current pricing"
"Vistana current pricing"

Underneath each, we can collect current information on what the developer is asking. We can even collect anecdotal evidence as to what folks paid on the resale market. When a newbie comes in, we can direct him to do a search on thread titles only using the words "current pricing" and filtering just the Starwood folder. Every property should come up without him having to know what our acronyms are.

We could do the same with photographs:

"Kierland photos"
"Kaanapali photos"
etc...
Just a thought.

 

[tonyh]

I think a database will be very useful. For developer prices, I think we should list not only the selling prices, but also the sales incentives that are offered. For resale prices, clearly potential sellers may be motivated to influence prices by posting higher prices and potential buyers may do the opposite, but as long as anonymous postings are not allowed, we should be able to figure out motivation behind some of the numbers.

In addition to the sale price database, I think a MF database will be useful as well (better than just a thread active only at this time of the year).

To get us started, here're some very recent developer prices and incentives:

SVV
2BR LO Prime EY $29.9k SP=40k EOY $19.5k SP=20k
2BR Std Prime EY $25.9k SP=50k EOY $16.9k SP=40k
2BR Std High EY $20.9k SP=65k EOY $13.6k /sp=35k
1BR Prime EY $18.9 SP=80k EOY $12.3k SP=40k

WDW
2BR LO
Plat+ EY $38.9k EOY $25.3k
Gold+ EY $27.9k EOY $18.2k
Gold EY $18.9k EOY $12.2k

WLM
2BR LO EY $38.95k SP=30k EOY $25k SP=15k
1BR Prem EY $27.9k SP=30k EOY $18k SP=15k

 

[Loriannf]

Season Names are not the same throughout SVO

For example, WSJ (VG) has Platinum Plus, Platinum and Gold; other resorts seem to have Platinum, Gold and Silver. Just a thought for an added wrinkle when someone designs the database.

Lori

 

[DavidnRobin]

I would be happy to share our resale WKORV and WPORV prices. I am not so inclined to do the same with our WSJ and WKV units because I think that we got them for much lower than the market value and it may set-up an unrealistic expectations.

Also - there are some places where you can find out what people paid for their SVO VOIs - e.g. the USVI Recorders office has a web-site that (with some good keyword usage) you can find out what people paid for their unit at WSJ.

Also, Also - when it comes to resale of WKV, WKORV, WKORV-N, VV, WMH - by reading here and following prices on the internet - you can get a very good idea of what one should pay - that could likely be more accurate than basing on Tuggers listing their resale purchase prices.

 

[SDKath]

I would be happy to share our resale WKORV and WPORV prices. I am not so inclined to do the same with our WSJ and WKV units because I think that we got them for much lower than the market value and it may set-up an unrealistic expectations.

Also - there are some places where you can find out what people paid for their SVO VOIs - e.g. the USVI Recorders office has a web-site that (with some good keyword usage) you can find out what people paid for their unit at WSJ.

Also, Also - when it comes to resale of WKV, WKORV, WKORV-N, VV, WMH - by reading here and following prices on the internet - you can get a very good idea of what one should pay - that could likely be more accurate than basing on Tuggers listing their resale purchase prices.

It took me 3-4 months of completely obsessive research and individual emails to sellers and renters (and 100s of hours) to realize how unreasonable asking prices are at most sites for resales. I think we should share our knowledge with others to save them this near impossible headache. Unreasonably low (or high) prices should be reported just as normal prices are. After all, sellers don't have to accept these offers if they think they can get more. I think it's important to have this info on hand for others to see. Just like buying a home.

Katherine

 

[DavidnRobin]

I am always willing to give my 2 cents (and do) on a reasonable value of certain SVO resales because of I have been watching and tracking for quite some time. (Plus, get lots of PMs asking and thanking me for saving them $1000s) But - as I think it will bare out - not enough people will post to make it a useful gauge of value.

I just got off the phone with a TS broker (still looking for my favorite VOI...) and the price I was quoted was almost 2x what I paid (I just laughed...). Another TS broker I spoke with (and used before) told me that they had a waiting list of 8 people. Now I have to ask myself how much of a disservice I did to myself in recommending this resale VOI to others on TUG.

 

[LisaRex]

FYI, I offered to do the spreadsheet, but Denise said that she was asked to refrain from doing anything until TUG launches their new & improved database.

 

[DeniseM]

Thinks to Lisa for offering to do the spreadsheet!

I don't think the TUG powers-that-be mind if we do our own thing, but Brian reminded me that they are hoping to launch a beta version of a new sales database this quarter and I told him we'd try it first. We can always do something else if it doesn't meet our needs.

With the upcoming data base, TUG members will be able to input their own data.

 

[rocky]

Now I have to ask myself how much of a disservice I did to myself in recommending this resale VOI to others on TUG.

Precisely my point. At some point sharing all the work one does to research and find a good deal turns into ruining the good deal or resource for everyone. And again I say...... not in favor. Taking the time and doing the research is the price one should pay to get the best deal. I'm all for helping people, but am of the "teach a man to fish" school of thought.

 

[Cathyb]

Katherine: Respectfully disagree with your line of thinking. If a Tugger sees your low sales price he sure isn't going to offer the seller any more than that (and in fact offer lower) so it will drive the sales price down even further. IMHO, this type of information only helps the owners of Westin timeshares that are going UP in price, not DOWN. Sorry for being Scrooge

 

[Cathyb]

Gloom cloud: Bought WMH when the shovel was just starting in the ground to build it. Two years or so later Westin adds a new stipulation (we call mandatory vs. voluntary resort) which affected the value of our timeshare tremendously if we ever wanted to sell it -- that is that the new buyer cannot get the benefit of exchanging to other Starwood resorts like St.John or Harborside -- a huge thing!!! We were never informed of this and feel violated. Our heirs are stuck with a hard-to-sell unit if they don't want to keep it.

 

[jerseygirl]

Cathy --

Can you clarify? Was the network in existence when you bought WMH (i.e., was "trading with StarOptions" part of the initial pitch)? If yes, the voluntary/mandatory should have been spelled out in your docs (even if it wasn't clear to the normal buyer).

I don't understand how they could have changed something 2 years after the fact -- unless they added SVN after you bought. Under those circumstances, they would have been giving you an extra benefit later (the ability to trade with StarOptions) and making that particular benefit non-transferable wouldn't be out of the question. This is basically what happened with the pre-SVN owners who were given the opportunity to join -- they should have understood that the benefit wouldn't transfer ... but since they weren't "sold on it" upfront, it's sort of a moot point.

Please understand -- I think the whole voluntary/mandatory thing is very anti-consumer/anti-owner (most likely, all owners, or their heirs, will need/want to sell someday .. so ALL owners of voluntary resorts are affected whether they realize it now or not). But, I can't believe that even evil old Starwood could get away with changing the rules 2 years into the game. Say it isn't so!

Thanks!

 

[steve1000]

I can't speak for Cathy but at the time I bought WMH (from the developer) there was no awareness of any distinction between voluntary vs mandatory resorts. I knew what my rights were with respect to SVN but was not aware that the SVN rights at any of the other resorts were any different. At that point the distinction between voluntary and mandatory had not been raised on TUG. Personally, I was deciding between buying WMH or WKV as the prices and Starpoint offers were identical. My ultimate decision to buy WMH was based simply on which location I thought I would enjoy visiting more regularly. However, if I had been aware of the mandatory/voluntary distinction at the time and its significant impact on resale value I would likely have decided to purchase WKV and simply exchange into WMH. In that regard I do feel somewhat betrayed by the whole mandatory/voluntary distinction. In fact, at that time I was evaluating whether to buy Marriott or Starwood - and the relative advantages and disadvantages of each program. Had I understood the M/V difference I may have opted to go with Marriott.

That said, I have enjoyed my stays at WMH and am looking forward to my next visit in March. However, I should also note that of all the different timeshare companies/systems I own - I am least satisfied with Starwood given i) the M/V distinction and its impact on value; ii) M/Fs that are routinely increasing at a faster rate than what I have experienced in the other systems; and iii) the elimination of benefits in the elite program.