Shouldn’t the “skim” be a dead issue now?

[CalGalTraveler]

NO question HGVC is a more user-friendly, cost effective overall system than Marriott - and where locations are comparable - we'll use HGVC over MVC points. We bought HGVC for access to the Big Island, and secondarily, to Oahu and their other locations. With the HGVC locations, it's unlikely we'll ever use MVC points for Marriott Waikoloa Ocean Club or KoOlina. But MVC has things HGVC doesn't. HGVC can't give us Kaanapali or Kauai, and I bet the HGVC Maui location is going to be hard to get and high points when it opens. That's why we own MVC weeks there. As I noted above, to me, if we could ever get these two weeks enrolled, even sparty's theoretical $500 cost of the MVC Hawaii skim would be worth it to us for the flexibility to craft an alternate use if our needs in a given year are different. With enrollment, if we need an alternate usage in any given year, we would avoid an II annual fee and a trade fee (and avoid a process we detest), so the real cost of that skim is much less. That's why I've never really understood all the indignation about the skim.

I agree there are complementary locations where one is better than the other. HGVC in Tuscany, Portugal, NYC, Japan, Scotland, Barbados, and Mexico. MVC/Vistana on Kaanapali, Kauai, Spain, Aruba/Caribbean, and Phuket. That's why we own both HGVC and Vistana and hope to be able to enroll our WKORVN in MVC and rent points as needed. Points rental is a good feature of MVC that you cannot get with HGVC or Vistana.

For higher points on HGVC Maui, I am anticipating buying another 7k+ pt resale in Vegas (approx $8k, $900 annual MF) or borrowing from future years because we travel to Maui EOY.

 

[bobpark56]

The skim is still an issue for us. We own both with Marriott and Vistana. There is no skim when we use Vistana points (StarOptions) within Vistana, but there is a skim when we use Marriott Destination Club points for Marriott 'trades.' It will be interesting to see how BonVoy marries these two programs.

 

[JIMinNC]

The skim is still and issue for us. We own both with Marriott and Vistana. There is no skim when we use Vistana points (StarOptions) within Vistana, but there is a skim when we use Marriott Destination Club points for Marriott 'trades.' It will be interesting to see how BonVoy marries these two programs.

BonVoy has nothing to do with any integration between MVC and Vistana. Bonvoy is the Marriott hotel loyalty program and that has already been consolidated between the legacy Marriott and former Starwood brands. Its a totally different program, run for a different purpose, by a totally different company.

 

[jme]

And at what price? II is not free, nor is availability certain.

Availability isn't always there for some. Or it takes a long time.
For me, and luckily perhaps, I've never failed to get the exact week I wanted at the resort I wanted.
More recently it has taken a couple of months longer than in the past, but not over that,
and the week finally comes through.

I never ask for two or more dates or two or more resorts,
only one specific week at one specific resort. I do submit the request early if I desire an on-going search.
For some situations, I do the trade online, get the EPlus, and keep checking back to upgrade.

And almost always, near 90%, any trade I've made has been an upgrade....been that way for 20 years.
The 10% would be a lateral move in perceived quality and experience, never lower, but still what I want.
Since most have been upgrades, the fee is welcomed, and the experience I'll obtain from the trade more than offsets the cost....
we've had some amazing stays in places whose rent would have been prohibitive.

I continue to keep trading a week or two each year.
And with Eplus, the upgrades are excellent....3BRs instead of 2, and I also work my way up
from 1BRs or studios to 3BRs.....or a 2BR at least.
The fees to me are nothing compared to what we get.

 

[BocaBoy]

What never seems to get mentioned is that it is sometimes possible to get a week for FEWER points than the points you get for turning in your week. Sometimes it is even in the same season. Maui, for example, is Platinum all year round, and for some parts of the year I can use fewer points to get a week than I get for giving up my week. I also feel that the ability to get more time in a 1BR by giving up the 2BR for points is very valuable. I have NEVER thought the "skim" is unreasonable, especially since there are no nickel and time reservation fees, and I don't feel cheated in the least.

 

[GregT]

I’ve never liked the skim, as longtime TUGgers know. I’ve accepted it as how the system was designed and view it as a hidden cost of the system, sometimes a significant cost.

For me, each of my 3BR weeks was skimmed 1,575 points, or almost $1,000 per week. Therefore I very rarely redeem them for points.

I still believe the reason they did it was because it would force the week owner to need to buy points — and they did. We will see if they skim the Vistana owners in whatever overlay comes out — and will be curious what their reaction is to being skimmed.

Best,

Greg

 

[bazzap]

I’ve never liked the skim, as longtime TUGgers know. I’ve accepted it as how the system was designed and view it as a hidden cost of the system, sometimes a significant cost.

For me, each of my 3BR weeks was skimmed 1,575 points, or almost $1,000 per week. Therefore I very rarely redeem them for points.

I still believe the reason they did it was because it would force the week owner to need to buy points — and they did. We will see if they skim the Vistana owners in whatever overlay comes out — and will be curious what their reaction is to being skimmed.

Best,

Greg

For me, the skim applies to most but not all of my enrolled MVC weeks.
It didn’t force me to need to buy points and it never will.
I do though increasingly choose to redeem for points, for the flexible options, early confirmation of bookings...

 

[CalGalTraveler]

What never seems to get mentioned is that it is sometimes possible to get a week for FEWER points than the points you get for turning in your week. Sometimes it is even in the same season. Maui, for example, is Platinum all year round, and for some parts of the year I can use fewer points to get a week than I get for giving up my week. I also feel that the ability to get more time in a 1BR by giving up the 2BR for points is very valuable. I have NEVER thought the "skim" is unreasonable, especially since there are no nickel and time reservation fees, and I don't feel cheated in the least.

Same applies to Vistana Staroptions and HGVC but WITHOUT the skim...I would expect to evaluate all three systems before applying points to get the lowest cost per point best room at a desired location. Skim may ultimately be a deterrent for Vistana owners to use DP vs. SOs.

 

[mjm1]

Same applies to Vistana Staroptions and HGVC but WITHOUT the skim...I would expect to evaluate all three systems before applying points to get the lowest cost per point best room at a desired location. Skim may ultimately be a deterrent for Vistana owners to use DP vs. SOs.

I agree. However, Vistana owners would only elect DC points if they wanted to stay at MVC resorts. Otherwise, they will continue to use SO’s. They would have to decide if the skim is worth going to one of the MVC resorts. Some will and some won’t.

Best regards.

Mike

 

[Dean]

This is an issue I can see both sides but at the end of the day I hold the opinion that it is what it is and that weeks owners have lost nothing. They don't have to enroll and if they do they don't have to take points or use the points for the same week at a higher cost. Now if the DC points system starts to affect actual weeks availability in some way, which I doubt it every would, then weeks owners are affected at some resorts and for some weeks even without participating and my opinion changes to the other side. The reality is that a pure points system is inefficient and some amount of "skim" is required to balance the system. Did MVC go overboard in this area, likely so, but I personally give them the benefit of the doubt as to the reasons. Is it reasonable to balance the system differently for points than the traditional weeks, absolutely.

 

[dougp26364]

The “skim” is relative and is an issue for home week reservations based on the resort and type of week.

For instance, at Ocean Pointe, I can elect points for my silver season week and book a majority of the weeks I my season and in Gold season for LESS than the points I receive. It’s only the Nov an Dec that cost more than what I receive.

Another issue I have with the “skim” is that we are at a point in life we don’t NEED the 2 bedroom or 3 bedroom units we own. I’d LOVE to convert to points, book the master suite with points and have left over points from the studio portion for other uses. But it doesn’t work that way. For Ocean Pointe we stay during the high point requirement times. If I convert I don’t have enough to book the master suite let alone have points left over. So that leaves us booking the entire unit or locking off the studio and trying to trade up (we don’t enjoy studio units). While exchanging in the weeks program continues to have value it has become more difficult to find something we want AND trade up in size.

The skim is the skim. It’s the price of playing in points. Every system has its nuances. Every system has to be worked.

 

[davidvel]

Hopefully this thread doesn't turn into another (of many) prior skim threads. If it does, so be it. The OP was about whether skim was a moot point given the passage of time. Skim still exists, and all the old arguments about it also still exist.

 

[DannyTS]

I hope that in an integrated system they will not favor MVC inventory with the best weeks of the season and leave SO's reservations with the worst weeks thus forcing Vistana owners to use MVC points for Vistana resorts

 

[dougp26364]

Hopefully this thread doesn't turn into another (of many) prior skim threads. If it does, so be it. The OP was about whether skim was a moot point given the passage of time. Skim still exists, and all the old arguments about it also still exist.

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One thing is certain. It’s not going to change.

 

[Dean]

I hope that in an integrated system they will not favor MVC inventory with the best weeks of the season and leave SO's reservations with the worst weeks thus forcing Vistana owners to use MVC points for Vistana resorts

That's why I asked on another thread if anyone knew for certain how they determined the weeks available on the points side for a floating week resort. If they open up the entire season for each week converted to points, it likely won't make much difference but might increase demand slightly for the most demanded weeks.

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One thing is certain. It’s not going to change.

I'd adjust to say it likely won't get better but it will change over time as is the nature of timeshares.

 

[DannyTS]

Say i deposit a Lagunamar week for MVC points and another owner uses SO practically depositing his week in VsN. What will keep MVC from showing Lagunamar availability for the President's week while in VSN they show availability for week 34?

 

[BreakingAway]

Hello Everyone,

I would like to bring up an old topic, because I still read about it hear from time to time and wonder if it is still relevant now that we have had the points system in effect for nine years.

People still talk about the “skim” which is a term we lexicographers on TUG gave to the difference in points in which a weeks owner receives when they elect points and the amount of points Marriott assigns to a the unit for people using Destination points. For example, in a Ko Olina platinum season Mountain View 2 bedroom gives the owner 4025 DC points when they choose to elect points. However, a Destinations points owner, needs between 4050 and 4575 Destination points to gain access to that same unit during platinum season.

I am trying to figure out that why as a weeks owner are people so concerned about the difference in points they receive when they do not have to use points to stay at their home resort. It’s never an issue for a weeks owner. The points difference is NEVER an issue if they stay at their home resort. If a weeks owner wants to trade/exchange, they can use Interval.

Now, I know that some feel cheated because they are not given the same amount of points that Marriott requires but why is it important for you as a weeks owner. You can stay in your own resort with a simple reservation as you always have. Now if you want to upgrade which you could not before, you could go use points.

Now pure points owners have no concerns because the points are points and there is no concern. So in my opinion their is no “skim” and no need to be concerned about a “skim”. Is there something that I am missing here? I thought this was a moot point, but I still see it come up every now and then.

Perhaps a point that is not being considered that other responders have eluded to but not stated specifically is that it is not the skim with Destination Points. It is that with the Destination Points program, Marriott essentially changed the seasons at some Marriott resorts. This is the reason it takes a lot more destination points to reserve some weeks in the same season at some resorts. Destination points give Marriott the option to adjust (most likely increase) the number of destination points required to reserve certain weeks. From my perspective, it is not the skim of the Destination Points that keeps me from enrolling my eligible weeks, it is the “changing of the seasons.”

 

[bogey21]

Hopefully this thread doesn't turn into another (of many) prior skim threads. If it does, so be it. The OP was about whether skim was a moot point given the passage of time. Skim still exists, and all the old arguments about it also still exist.

Marriott probably knew when they instituted the skim that it would be controversial. They also know that over time they will profit from it and Owners will learn to live with it...

George

 

[bazzap]

Perhaps a point that is not being considered that other responders have eluded to but not stated specifically is that it is not the skim with Destination Points. It is that with the Destination Points program, Marriott essentially changed the seasons at some Marriott resorts. This is the reason it takes a lot more destination points to reserve some weeks in the same season at some resorts. Destination points give Marriott the option to adjust (most likely increase) the number of destination points required to reserve certain weeks. From my perspective, it is not the skim of the Destination Points that keeps me from enrolling my eligible weeks, it is the “changing of the seasons.”

As is often pointed out though, if MVC increase the points required for some weeks they must reduce the number required for other weeks to leave the total number for the year unchanged.
So the impact depends on how flexible your choice of weeks may be.

 

[JIMinNC]

Marriott probably knew when they instituted the skim that it would be controversial. They also know that over time they will profit from it and Owners will learn to live with it...

George

This is the key point...MVC built the skim into the system from the outset, so hate it or tolerate it, it's part of the system and we have to work with it. In systems that allow weeks to be split into shorter stays, the program manager/developer should build in some way to account for broken weeks and the unused days that result. Marriott chose to make transactions free and created the skim, other developers (like HGVC) took a different approach and kept transaction fees. Making a profit is still the reason these companies exist, so we can't expect them to offer something of value (like being able to split weeks) and not expect to pay for that privilege in some way (fees or skim). And as the OP notes, even with the skim, weeks owners are whole and have lost nothing - they can still use their week(s) as always. It's just when they decide to convert to points that MVC takes a little off the top. That may be annoying, but it's how the system works, and IMHO should be viewed as Marriott's "price" for the additional flexibility converting to points brings. Offering that flexibility adds costs to the system; the skim is a way to recoup that cost.

 

[Superchief]

As is often pointed out though, if MVC increase the points required for some weeks they must reduce the number required for other weeks to leave the total number for the year unchanged.
So the impact depends on how flexible your choice of weeks may be.

Although the total points required for the complete units (primarily 2 and 3BR) cannot increase, I have noticed that MVC has increased the cost of the individual components at some resorts, especially during prime season. The point cost for a 1BR plus the cost of the studio often exceeds the total points required for the complete 2BR. I've also noticed increases for specific days (holidays, Fr, Sat) while the coinciding weekdays decreased.

 

[bazzap]

Although the total points required for the complete units (primarily 2 and 3BR) cannot increase, I have noticed that MVC has increased the cost of the individual components at some resorts, especially during prime season. The point cost for a 1BR plus the cost of the studio often exceeds the total points required for the complete 2BR. I've also noticed increases for specific days (holidays, Fr, Sat) while the coinciding weekdays decreased.

I knew of the specific day changes, I hadn’t noticed the individual component changes.
Presumably though, as total inventory day / component points costs are fixed, then for any higher cost selections there will be similarly lower cost selections which should be a good deal.

 

[Superchief]

I agree with JiminNC that the 'skim' is essentially the cost to cover the flexibility of the point program. MVC has to deal with a lot more unused studios and nights at various resorts due to DC program. Now that our travel habits have changed, I greatly appreciate the flexibility and am seldom impacted by the skim.

• The only time I would use points for my week in season would be if I had carryover points I had to use or the reservation was only available via points and not traditional weeks (has not yet happened). In these cases, I would likely reserve a smaller unit or avoid a Fr or Sat night.
• I am now able to stay in higher seasons in a smaller unit or for fewer nights. We do this frequently.
• We get significantly more vacation value for weeknight stays and those within 60 days.
• There are several easy workarounds to avoid paying the premiums.

My only complaint with the point program is that two of my weeks (MCV Gold and Oceans Palms Gold) receive very few points, and MF per point exceeds MF cost of trust points. I would not have purchased these had I known there future point value.

I am more unhappy with II's additional fees for larger unit exchanges than I am with anything MVC has done. I can understand paying the upgrade fee for similar season/resort quality exchanges, but most of my 1BR to 2BR exchanges through II were for lower demand resorts/weeks.

 

[Superchief]

I knew of the specific day changes, I hadn’t noticed the individual component changes.
Presumably though, as total inventory day / component points costs are fixed, then for any higher cost selections there will be similarly lower cost selections which should be a good deal.

I was told that the point cost for the individual rooms (1BR, Studios) can be increased, but only the total 2BR villa point values cannot be increased. Therefore, the one bedroom rate increase would not require a corresponding decrease for other days or for studios.

 

[Dean]

Perhaps a point that is not being considered that other responders have eluded to but not stated specifically is that it is not the skim with Destination Points. It is that with the Destination Points program, Marriott essentially changed the seasons at some Marriott resorts. This is the reason it takes a lot more destination points to reserve some weeks in the same season at some resorts. Destination points give Marriott the option to adjust (most likely increase) the number of destination points required to reserve certain weeks. From my perspective, it is not the skim of the Destination Points that keeps me from enrolling my eligible weeks, it is the “changing of the seasons.”

I think it's both. They did, and should have, adjusted for demand but they may have gone overboard. The question is why, uncertainty, caution or nefarious. I tend to assume the first 2 and not the last.

Marriott probably knew when they instituted the skim that it would be controversial. They also know that over time they will profit from it and Owners will learn to live with it...

George

Without trying to go through the numbers and assuming an efficient system that SHOULD have excess, can you sho me where there is excess and a budget line item where they have specifically increased their profits in this area?

Although the total points required for the complete units (primarily 2 and 3BR) cannot increase, I have noticed that MVC has increased the cost of the individual components at some resorts, especially during prime season. The point cost for a 1BR plus the cost of the studio often exceeds the total points required for the complete 2BR. I've also noticed increases for specific days (holidays, Fr, Sat) while the coinciding weekdays decreased.

I was told that the point cost for the individual rooms (1BR, Studios) can be increased, but only the total 2BR villa point values cannot be increased. Therefore, the one bedroom rate increase would not require a corresponding decrease for other days or for studios.

My understanding is that lockout components are not protected. Any resort that had a dedicated smaller villa size would have vicarious protection for that size unit.