Shouldn’t the “skim” be a dead issue now?

[SmithOp]

I can only speak for the HGVC system.

It was designed for swapping weeks, although it allows 3 day (quasi-half-week) stays. How "breakage" is handled, I don't know. Probably from developer weeks.

Breakage is handled simply by opening up the bits and bobs to cash buyers on Hilton dot com. Developer owned weeks are sold there also. Case in point right now, a new phase just opened in Hilton Head. I can rent cash on hilton dot com, but if I look using my points nothing shows up until December.

HGVC doesnt care about breakage, the owners are paying for the underlying weeks maint fees and all the short stay booking fees and revenue are gravy.




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[csalter2]

Which is why there is little chance for non owners to reserve the most in demand options (good or bad). Each system has it's plusses and minuses as well as nuances. I like the home resort option because you can improve your chances of success by buying what you want albeit at a likely higher cost for the more in demand options. I find that in the end most systems end up fairly similarly for those that are informed prior to purchase but they often get there quite differently. DVC is inherently a points based system with a home resort priority, they sell 96-98% of the potential points with the rest going to Maintenance and breakage but they also have a premium on lockoff portions which frees up some room as well. Bluegreen is a fixed unit/ fixed weeks based system at heart even though it mostly functions on the points side. You have an underlying week but you must notify them if you want to take your week. Wyndham is a mixture though mostly points though I'm sure I don't understand it's nuances as well as I do Marriott, DVC & BG. BG & Wyndham particularly have an aggressive VIP system (more so than Marriott's). BG has been my best Value, Marriott my best overall option, DVC is my first love and we still enjoy it.

I still feel that I have an advantage at getting my own resorts when I want during my season if I am planning early. Ko Olina which I have owned since it opened has never been a problem. My Ocean Pointe and Aruba Surf Club weeks are accessible during the 12 month timeframe fairly easily as well. There was still availability last week during platinum season for Ocean Pointe and Surf Club so without a doubt planning can make a difference in one getting what they desire.

My Diamond Resorts timeshare has a home collection advantage in which owners in their home collection can make reservations from 13 months out. Those not in the collection have to wait until 10 months out to make reservations outside of their home collection. Diamond has a host of owners from various timeshares that they merged/took over. Some of the systems had points and others had weeks. Diamond offered those who were taken over to join the points system. They have let some keep their weeks and elect points to just pure weeks. Yes, there are complaints about availability, but I have never had that issue when I use my home collection advantage. Hawaii resorts are not in my home resort collection so I have to book, 10 months out, but again I have never had problems booking and I always go prime season summer or spring break and never have a problem. I usually stay in Hawaii for four or five weeks using mostly Diamond Resorts. It’s in know the system you own and planning accordingly.

I often read on forums like Redweek of unhappy people complaining about their timeshares. Often, but not all, are not aware of how to use their specific system or are not planning appropriately.

 

[Dean]

I still feel that I have an advantage at getting my own resorts when I want during my season if I am planning early. Ko Olina which I have owned since it opened has never been a problem. My Ocean Pointe and Aruba Surf Club weeks are accessible during the 12 month timeframe fairly easily as well. There was still availability last week during platinum season for Ocean Pointe and Surf Club so without a doubt planning can make a difference in one getting what they desire.

My Diamond Resorts timeshare has a home collection advantage in which owners in their home collection can make reservations from 13 months out. Those not in the collection have to wait until 10 months out to make reservations outside of their home collection. Diamond has a host of owners from various timeshares that they merged/took over. Some of the systems had points and others had weeks. Diamond offered those who were taken over to join the points system. They have let some keep their weeks and elect points to just pure weeks. Yes, there are complaints about availability, but I have never had that issue when I use my home collection advantage. Hawaii resorts are not in my home resort collection so I have to book, 10 months out, but again I have never had problems booking and I always go prime season summer or spring break and never have a problem. I usually stay in Hawaii for four or five weeks using mostly Diamond Resorts. It’s in know the system you own and planning accordingly.

I often read on forums like Redweek of unhappy people complaining about their timeshares. Often, but not all, are not aware of how to use their specific system or are not planning appropriately.

Same here but my reference was for HGVC high demand resorts like HHI during the mid summer. But the issues applies to some Marriott's as well like Maui, Aruba for weeks 5, 7, 51 & 53, HHI mid summer. But if one is informed and proactive, they will get what they want most of the time however there are some of these options you need the 13 month window and some where you actually need to lead into the 13 month window with more than 2 weeks. The bottom line is every system is different and those that are informed and proactive will have success much of the time.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I went to a presentation with HGVC and at NO TIME was the word week used. The sals people only speak in terms of points. All charts, tables and written documents discuss POINTS not weeks.

If what you’re saying here is true, then the HGVC is quite similar to Marriott as a week has to become available for points to b used.

Similar WRT home week but different in 2 key ways:

1) all units in HGVC are enrolled and eligible for conversion to club points and avail to internal traders. When an HGVC property is purchased there is a flat $599 mandatory fee to enroll in point system. Vistana Staroptions runs similarly. I have read that only about 50% of MVC units are enrolled which cuts availability for trades off the top in half.

2) Most HGVC owners do not use their home week making high end units avail to others. Some want to save points and downsize to smaller unit, some want larger unit, some want short week at same resort, diff checkin day etc. Must convert to points to do this. I am staying in a 3 bdrm OV penthouse in Hawaii during an event week with HGVC Vegas points for $1200 / week because an owner traded their home week. Most HGVC owners think in terms of points except for a small portion of units e.g. event weeks, July Aug in Waikiki, pres day ski week.

 

[csalter2]

Similar WRT home week but different in 2 key ways:

1) all units in HGVC are enrolled and eligible for conversion to club points and avail to internal traders. When an HGVC property is purchased there is a flat $599 mandatory fee to enroll in point system. Vistana Staroptions runs similarly. I have read that only about 50% of MVC units are enrolled which cuts availability for trades off the top in half.

2) Most HGVC owners do not use their home week making high end units avail to others. Some want to save points and downsize to smaller unit, some want larger unit, some want short week at same resort, diff checkin day etc. Must convert to points to do this. I am staying in a 3 bdrm OV penthouse in Hawaii during an event week because an owner traded their home week. Most HGVC owners think in terms of points except for a small portion of units e.g. event weeks, July Aug in Waikiki, pres day ski week.

Well, if what you have here is true, then I don’t see any real difference from MVC. The salesman at the presentation told me the HGVC started out with points. She stated that since they came into the game late they looked at what everyone else did and listened to what folks liked and did not like and made their system. Marriott started with weeks. They gave all weeks owners an opportunity to be in the points program. Many have taken advantage of it and many have not. Many who haven’t are not participating either because they don’t understand the program, don’t get real value of points because the points they get are not enough to exchange into other resorts or they just enjoy what they have. However, Marriott does have inventory of its own, there are lots of weeks owners like myself who do elect points and the unsold inventory was placed in the trust. I don’t know if it’s half or not. It doesn’t sound like there is too much of a difference.

 

[jtdillian]

I have a question? How many of us would check in on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday at our home resorts if we were given the same amount of points from election that it would take to reserve? I ask because with our home resorts we cannot check in on those days! But how much is airfare during the week vs. weekends (when our check in days are only available) ....the cost savings on the air could make up more than the difference of paying the skim! Aruba can be $1000 difference for a family of four! Aruba is also I think the only resort that has 5 day check in for weeks owners...but Tuesday and Wednesday is cheaper for flights! But you can’t check in w weeks only points! Got Skim!

 

[klpca]

Well, if what you have here is true, then I don’t see any real difference from MVC. The salesman at the presentation told me the HGVC started out with points. She stated that since they came into the game late they looked at what everyone else did and listened to what folks liked and did not like and made their system. Marriott started with weeks. They gave all weeks owners an opportunity to be in the points program. Many have taken advantage of it and many have not. Many who haven’t are not participating either because they don’t understand the program, don’t get real value of points because the points they get are not enough to exchange into other resorts or they just enjoy what they have. However, Marriott does have inventory of its own, there are lots of weeks owners like myself who do elect points and the unsold inventory was placed in the trust. I don’t know if it’s half or not. It doesn’t sound like there is too much of a difference.

The biggest difference between HGVC and MVC is that everyone (even resale owners) can participate in the points program in HGVC and Marriott has shut out post June 2010 resale owners. Also there's no skim in HGVC. I get 7,000 points for my week, it costs me 7,000 points to trade back in.

I am a former MVC resale owner. I couldn't enroll my weeks so I traded through II and have never had any problem getting what I wanted. I am just now using my final two Marriott trades. The studio side was getting increasingly more difficult to uptrade - fair enough - and with the high maintenance fees I decided to sell my weeks (through Marriott at the time - that was a very nice perk). The main benefit to owning a resale Marriott was to trade back into a Marriott. We aren't big resort people for the most part, and I found that we were frequently trading into non-Marriott resorts (usually for location), so owning them as an expensive trader seemed like overkill.

 

[Dean]

I have a question? How many of us would check in on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday at our home resorts if we were given the same amount of points from election that it would take to reserve? I ask because with our home resorts we cannot check in on those days! But how much is airfare during the week vs. weekends (when our check in days are only available) ....the cost savings on the air could make up more than the difference of paying the skim! Aruba can be $1000 difference for a family of four! Aruba is also I think the only resort that has 5 day check in for weeks owners...but Tuesday and Wednesday is cheaper for flights! But you can’t check in w weeks only points! Got Skim!

You can for points though it might be more difficult to reserve. Some resorts have Monday/Thursday check in and in one case that option was added after in active sales, Surf Club I think. I have 2 that have both lockoffs and Thursday check in (3 with our new Aruba purchase once finalized) and it works great with the 13 month reservation options. But I don't think they can just arbitrarily change it to other start days for a full week so I don't see that as an option that's realistic. Plus there is an inherent inefficiency so giving full points for the entire year for the entire resort wouldn't be workable. I figure that you need a good 5% cushion for the year just to make things work. I know people calculated the skim for an entire year back when this came around but I don't recall enough specifics to quote a number. You can do that with points but you might have less points (the skim) or you might have more depending on specifics including resort and week.

 

[JIMinNC]

I have a question? How many of us would check in on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday at our home resorts if we were given the same amount of points from election that it would take to reserve? I ask because with our home resorts we cannot check in on those days! But how much is airfare during the week vs. weekends (when our check in days are only available) ....the cost savings on the air could make up more than the difference of paying the skim! Aruba can be $1000 difference for a family of four! Aruba is also I think the only resort that has 5 day check in for weeks owners...but Tuesday and Wednesday is cheaper for flights! But you can’t check in w weeks only points! Got Skim!

I prefer weekend check-ins/outs, so even if they could eliminate the skim as you suggest, I don't think that would be enough incentive for us to alter our schedule. We also don't tend to chase air fares and will almost always choose convenience/schedule over lowest price, unless the price difference is enormous.

 

[davidvel]

Hello Everyone,

I would like to bring up an old topic, because I still read about it hear from time to time and wonder if it is still relevant now that we have had the points system in effect for nine years.

People still talk about the “skim” which is a term we lexicographers on TUG gave to the difference in points in which a weeks owner receives when they elect points and the amount of points Marriott assigns to a the unit for people using Destination points. For example, in a Ko Olina platinum season Mountain View 2 bedroom gives the owner 4025 DC points when they choose to elect points. However, a Destinations points owner, needs between 4050 and 4575 Destination points to gain access to that same unit during platinum season.

I am trying to figure out that why as a weeks owner are people so concerned about the difference in points they receive when they do not have to use points to stay at their home resort. It’s never an issue for a weeks owner. The points difference is NEVER an issue if they stay at their home resort. If a weeks owner wants to trade/exchange, they can use Interval.

Now, I know that some feel cheated because they are not given the same amount of points that Marriott requires but why is it important for you as a weeks owner. You can stay in your own resort with a simple reservation as you always have. Now if you want to upgrade which you could not before, you could go use points.

Now pure points owners have no concerns because the points are points and there is no concern. So in my opinion their is no “skim” and no need to be concerned about a “skim”. Is there something that I am missing here? I thought this was a moot point, but I still see it come up every now and then.

To recap, from the 84 posts above, skim does not appear to be a dead issue.

 

[JIMinNC]

To recap, from the 84 posts above, skim does not appear to be a dead issue.

So true. The topic does seem to get TUGgers spun up!

As I said earlier, it doesn't really bother me that much because that's just the way the system works, we understand WHY it works that way, so it is what it is.

 

[bazzap]

I have a question? How many of us would check in on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday at our home resorts if we were given the same amount of points from election that it would take to reserve? I ask because with our home resorts we cannot check in on those days! But how much is airfare during the week vs. weekends (when our check in days are only available) ....the cost savings on the air could make up more than the difference of paying the skim! Aruba can be $1000 difference for a family of four! Aruba is also I think the only resort that has 5 day check in for weeks owners...but Tuesday and Wednesday is cheaper for flights! But you can’t check in w weeks only points! Got Skim!

We have total flexibility, so I would happily book to check in on whatever day of the week offered the best deal both with MVC and with the airlines.
Now, we often book best deal flights on different dates to our check in / check out dates and add stays at nearby accommodation.

 

[csalter2]

To recap, from the 84 posts above, skim does not appear to be a dead issue.

It is apparent that it isn’t. I don’t know why, but I gues it means something.

 

[Dean]

It is apparent that it isn’t. I don’t know why, but I gues it means something.

I heard a quote on the radio a couple of days ago. "If you don't like something change it, if you can't change it, change your attitude". Certainly it would apply to those of us that have made the decision to continue to play in the sandbox.

 

[BreakingAway]

I heard a quote on the radio a couple of days ago. "If you don't like something change it, if you can't change it, change your attitude". Certainly it would apply to those of us that have made the decision to continue to play in the sandbox.

I will state this very respectfully, but I have noticed that the few previous posts (by frequent posters who are of a similar mind) are what happens when someone posts a different opinion on the TUG Marriott forum. There is a “piling on” process that essentially silences the persons who have a different viewpoint. I appreciate those who take their time to share their knowledge of the Marriott system, but when a dissenter makes a good point, there is little or no response to acknowledge that a good point was made. I have enjoyed my Marriott timeshares for 12-15 years and expect to continue to enjoy them. I am annoyed with the statement that if someone decides “to continue to play in the sandbox,” they should not voice concerns.

 

[Dean]

I will state this very respectfully, but I have noticed that the few previous posts (by frequent posters who are of a similar mind) are what happens when someone posts a different opinion on the TUG Marriott forum. There is a “piling on” process that essentially silences the persons who have a different viewpoint. I appreciate those who take their time to share their knowledge of the Marriott system, but when a dissenter makes a good point, there is little or no response to acknowledge that a good point was made. I have enjoyed my Marriott timeshares for 12-15 years and expect to continue to enjoy them. I am annoyed with the statement that if someone decides “to continue to play in the sandbox,” they should not voice concerns.

That wasn’t my intent but I think it’s applicable here. There are 2 sides to this issue and I personally fall in the middle as I think the balance of my posts here substantiated. But I did hear quote this week and it did seem to have some applicability. I think it’s reasonable to discuss but certainly outrage is unreasonable at this point. If one continues to play they’ve agreed to the terms but that doesn’t necesssarilfy mean they have to like them.

 

[BreakingAway]

That wasn’t my intent but I think it’s applicable here. There are 2 sides to this issue and I personally fall in the middle as I think the balance of my posts here substantiated. But I did hear quote this week and it did seem to have some applicability. I think it’s reasonable to discuss but certainly outrage is unreasonable at this point. If one continues to play they’ve agreed to the terms but that doesn’t necesssarilfy mean they have to like them.

Thank you, Dean, for clarifying. I agree with your post to enjoy what we have and not diminish our enjoyment with a negative attitude. For those of us who have weeks that were grandfathered in, we can decide which terms (weeks or points) work best for our circumstances. But, as previously stated above, it takes a lot of education and pro action to get what we want from either weeks or points.

 

[dayooper]

That wasn’t my intent but I think it’s applicable here. There are 2 sides to this issue and I personally fall in the middle as I think the balance of my posts here substantiated. But I did hear quote this week and it did seem to have some applicability. I think it’s reasonable to discuss but certainly outrage is unreasonable at this point. If one continues to play they’ve agreed to the terms but that doesn’t necesssarilfy mean they have to like them.

As a relatively new HGVC owner, it’s posts like these that I learn the most from. I had no idea what a “skim” was and why it was used. By taking in what posts like these are saying and giving both sides of the issue, I am able to make my own thoughts and ideas about each system and make more informed decisions. While you all are debating the merits of the skim, some new member is learning about the process. It’s what makes Tug such a great resource.

 

[Dean]

Thank you, Dean, for clarifying. I agree with your post to enjoy what we have and not diminish our enjoyment with a negative attitude. For those of us who have weeks that were grandfathered in, we can decide which terms (weeks or points) work best for our circumstances. But, as previously stated above, it takes a lot of education and pro action to get what we want from either weeks or points.

Sure. In general the admonishment is reasonable. For me personally I adhere to the adage that to be unclear is to be unkind. I tend to be hard line on matters of rules, ethics and philosophy so someone who posts say that they’re sneaking around the laws may feel shut down as you say. I also believe that far too often we’ve lost the ability to disagree without feeling personally attacked. What I think you’ll see on my posts is that in such matters I tend to post to the principle and not the person. But if I say those who drive a red car are bad and you drive a red car, so be it. That’s my posting style, it’s purposeful and it hasnt’ changed since AG invented the internet. I do agree that discussions are where people learn even if they don’t agree completely with a given post, I just don’t want them to learn that being bad is good.

 

[Swice]

Nine days or nine years... skim will always be an "issue" for those who bought weeks. The issue will never completely go away. But as time goes by and weeks are sold, inherited, forfeited or whatever, ... and more people "buy" points... skim will become less and less of an "issue."

The older I get, the more I realize there is a cost for everything. At the same time, the older I get, MY ideas of value evolve. While a few years ago I was concerned about every penny, now I'll gladly give up a few of those pennies for convenience and ease of life. People will pay the skim (or dollars) based on what they deem valuable to them-- and their ideas of value will change based on their incomes, ages (stage of life) of their children, family situations, vacation time and health.

As for us, we do a hybrid every couple of years and turn one of our weeks into points. Those points extend our other weeks and give us weekend getaways in down seasons. I figure using points in lower seasons and a presentation once every couple of years for club points means I really haven't experienced much skim.

 

[Dean]

Nine days or nine years... skim will always be an "issue" for those who bought weeks. The issue will never completely go away. But as time goes by and weeks are sold, inherited, forfeited or whatever, ... and more people "buy" points... skim will become less and less of an "issue."

The older I get, the more I realize there is a cost for everything. At the same time, the older I get, MY ideas of value evolve. While a few years ago I was concerned about every penny, now I'll gladly give up a few of those pennies for convenience and ease of life. People will pay the skim (or dollars) based on what they deem valuable to them-- and their ideas of value will change based on their incomes, ages (stage of life) of their children, family situations, vacation time and health.

As for us, we do a hybrid every couple of years and turn one of our weeks into points. Those points extend our other weeks and give us weekend getaways in down seasons. I figure using points in lower seasons and a presentation once every couple of years for club points means I really haven't experienced much skim.

But is it a reasonable issue for weeks? They haven't lost anything they had before the DC came out that was contractual. And the only ways I can think of to say they've lost anything at all is to either postulate that the DC system has reduced their chances of booking their week and/or reduced the options in II (contractually stated as not guaranteed). I agree that it's value just not cost or $ savings.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

As a relatively new HGVC owner, it’s posts like these that I learn the most from. I had no idea what a “skim” was and why it was used. By taking in what posts like these are saying and giving both sides of the issue, I am able to make my own thoughts and ideas about each system and make more informed decisions. While you all are debating the merits of the skim, some new member is learning about the process. It’s what makes Tug such a great resource.

Which is why I posted the difference between the two systems in the first place. To provide a comparison between the two systems. I am not saying one system is better that the other. That is a personal value judgement and varies from person to person.

 

[Pathways]

The people I know who were unhappy with the 'skim' were those weeks owner's who didn't like the S-S week and thought the points system would allow them to change to a Tu-Tu or We-We easily at the same cost. Or do 5 or 6 days, at a lower cost.

 

[Swice]

But is it a reasonable issue for weeks? They haven't lost anything they had before the DC came out that was contractual. And the only ways I can think of to say they've lost anything at all is to either postulate that the DC system has reduced their chances of booking their week and/or reduced the options in II (contractually stated as not guaranteed). I agree that it's value just not cost or $ savings.

Dean,
I'm not sure there is an answer on a "REASONABLE" issue for weeks? There is no way to define "reasonable." What some people may complain about regarding the skim, you and I may think is silly. But the fact they're complaining says there is an "issue." That's why I say even after nine years there is an "issue." As long as week owners still have memories of the way it used to be, there will always be some who believe the skim is an issue. Anytime there is a "change in structure" somebody is going to be upset. Simply people don't like change. A timeshare resort could reconfigure a sidewalk to build a beautiful rose garden and some would complain about the sidewalk being blocked and they can't walk the old straight path to the activities room anymore. Some would love the lush landscaping and others would say it makes it difficult for the bicycles.

The hardest job I EVER had was being the President of a Homeowner's Association. Even when we had the best of intentions and thought we were doing something wonderful, people had "issues" with our actions.

 

[Dean]

Dean,
I'm not sure there is an answer on a "REASONABLE" issue for weeks? There is no way to define "reasonable." What some people may complain about regarding the skim, you and I may think is silly. But the fact they're complaining says there is an "issue." That's why I say even after nine years there is an "issue." As long as week owners still have memories of the way it used to be, there will always be some who believe the skim is an issue. Anytime there is a "change in structure" somebody is going to be upset. Simply people don't like change. A timeshare resort could reconfigure a sidewalk to build a beautiful rose garden and some would complain about the sidewalk being blocked and they can't walk the old straight path to the activities room anymore. Some would love the lush landscaping and others would say it makes it difficult for the bicycles.

The hardest job I EVER had was being the President of a Homeowner's Association. Even when we had the best of intentions and thought we were doing something wonderful, people had "issues" with our actions.

I think there is since they've lost nothing. One of my other life principles is that someone else's gain is not necessarily my loss.