Shill bidding in private auction

[Saintsfanfl]

At the end of the day shilling is no different then a reserve price.

Perhaps no different mathematically but legally there is a big difference. Shilling is fraud in every state and criminal in some, while a reserve price is legal everywhere.

I would argue though that even mathematically there is a difference. I generally won't waste my time with a reserve auction but I may get hit with a shill on a non-reserve.

Also, sniping does not prevent a shill. Shill bidders can snipe just like the rest of us. Or the earlier shill max bid is unknown until your snipe hits.

 

[ronparise]

Perhaps no different mathematically but legally there is a big difference. Shilling is fraud in every state and criminal in some, while a reserve price is legal everywhere.

I would argue though that even mathematically there is a difference. I generally won't waste my time with a reserve auction but I may get hit with a shill on a non-reserve.

Also, sniping does not prevent a shill. Shill bidders can snipe just like the rest of us. Or the earlier shill max bid is unknown until your snipe hits.

sniping doesnt prevent a shill, but it does assure me as the buyer that I wont pay any more than I want to. Could I get it cheaper if there was no shill bidding? maybe...do I care?...no

Please understand I am not trying to justify shills, Im just telling you what I do to work in a world where they exist

 

[tug1873]

Perhaps no different mathematically but legally there is a big difference. Shilling is fraud in every state and criminal in some, while a reserve price is legal everywhere.

I would argue though that even mathematically there is a difference. I generally won't waste my time with a reserve auction but I may get hit with a shill on a non-reserve.

Also, sniping does not prevent a shill. Shill bidders can snipe just like the rest of us. Or the earlier shill max bid is unknown until your snipe hits.

In livestock auctions and other live auctions shill bidding is allowed and happens everyday in most states.

If an auction is open to the public then it's legal to bid on even if it is the seller.

Ebay has a policy against it and you agree to those rules that is why it may be considered fraud. Most people convicted of auction fraud do much more then shilling.

I don't like shills either but I also don't let it bother me either

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

 

[Saintsfanfl]

In livestock auctions and other live auctions shill bidding is allowed and happens everyday in most states.

If an auction is open to the public then it's legal to bid on even if it is the seller.

Ebay has a policy against it and you agree to those rules that is why it may be considered fraud. Most people convicted of auction fraud do much more then shilling.

I don't like shills either but I also don't let it bother me either

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

No. For the shilling to be legal it would have to be disclosed. That is the difference. It isn't fraud if the seller bidding is disclosed, but it is always fraud when it's not. There have even been federal indictments related to deceptive shill bidding. Below is an excerpt of an FBI indictment of Mastro Auctions which involved fraud on a massive scale. This is just the section of the indictment related to the same practice some eBay sellers use to inflate prices. Since the charges were federal, they would apply to all 50 states.

each Mastro Auctions catalog represented that “items are sold to the highest bidder.” In fact, Mastro, Allen, and Theotikos allegedly knew that certain items were not sold to the highest bidder because they canceled sales and engaged in and facilitated shill-bidding to fraudulently inflate prices to the detriment of bidders;

 

[ronparise]

I have a couple of timeshares in an LLC, I plan to sell these sometime next year on ebay. or if I cant get the price I want I will transfer them to one of my personal accounts.

The problem I have is how to do that without being accused of shilling. I could set a reserve price, but has been said here, that chases away a lot of buyers, or I could set my reserve by asking a trusted friend to put in an a bid with esnipe, but thats shill bidding and against ebay policy. Or I could put the thing up on my website, and on ebay. and if the e bay bidding doesnt get to where I want it to go, Ill just tell the high bidder "sorry it sold at the last minute off my website" and it did, My LLC sold it to me.

The last option is what some other ebay sellers do

I think my plan is valid and in no way illegal (selling it to the high bidder, which is me unless Im offered a better price on ebay) What do you think? and do you have any other ideas on how to accomplish it.

 

[csxjohn]

I have a couple of timeshares in an LLC, I plan to sell these sometime next year on ebay. or if I cant get the price I want I will transfer them to one of my personal accounts.

The problem I have is how to do that without being accused of shilling. I could set a reserve price, but has been said here, that chases away a lot of buyers, or I could set my reserve by asking a trusted friend to put in an a bid with esnipe, but thats shill bidding and against ebay policy. Or I could put the thing up on my website, and on ebay. and if the e bay bidding doesnt get to where I want it to go, Ill just tell the high bidder "sorry it sold at the last minute off my website" and it did, My LLC sold it to me.

The last option is what some other ebay sellers do

I think my plan is valid and in no way illegal (selling it to the high bidder, which is me unless Im offered a better price on ebay) What do you think? and do you have any other ideas on how to accomplish it.

Rather than a reserve price just set the starting price where you need it to be. If that's too high for the lookers they wont' bid and you're only out the listing fee.

No explanations need be given to anyone and nothing shady or illegal about it.

 

[tug1873]

Csxjohn is correct just list for the minimum your willing to accept.

Ron your running into the biggest problem with ebay. It is not a auction in that sense. A real auction allows the seller to see the price that willing bidders are paying and then decide then if he wants to sell at that price.

On ebay reserve prices are a sham the bid is not binding and has no meaning. It actually hurts the seller.
I also believe the fraud cases i have seen involving ebay were because they retracted bids if they won.

 

[ronparise]

Csxjohn is correct just list for the minimum your willing to accept.

Ron your running into the biggest problem with ebay. It is not a auction in that sense. A real auction allows the seller to see the price that willing bidders are paying and then decide then if he wants to sell at that price.

On ebay reserve prices are a sham the bid is not binding and has no meaning. It actually hurts the seller.
I also believe the fraud cases i have seen involving ebay were because they retracted bids if they won.

I disagree about setting the starting price where I want. Thats no different than a reserve in that it tends to chase potential buyers away

What I dont like about ebay and what makes it unlike any other auction Ive seen is the drop dead end of it. There is an exact time an auction ends. In a normal auction the bidding continues until there are no more bids.

What I like about ebay and why Ill use it when I decide to sell, is that there is no other place that brings as many new buyers and sellers to the table. I really do believe that that's how market price is determined. And if I can get market price, Im a happy camper (as long as market price means a profit for me.)

 

[dioxide45]

I disagree about setting the starting price where I want. Thats no different than a reserve in that it tends to chase potential buyers away

What I dont like about ebay and what makes it unlike any other auction Ive seen is the drop dead end of it. There is an exact time an auction ends. In a normal auction the bidding continues until there are no more bids.

What I like about ebay and why Ill use it when I decide to sell, is that there is no other place that brings as many new buyers and sellers to the table. I really do believe that that's how market price is determined. And if I can get market price, Im a happy camper (as long as market price means a profit for me.)

So really, an auction site that is setup to allow people to bid until there hasn't been a bid for X period of time. So people keep bidding until there hasn't been a bid for say 72 hours. That would cause more people to bid early and actually help sellers. Of course it could increase the shill bidding that is the issue being discussed here.

 

[tschwa2]

Skyauction originally had auctions that ended at a certain time. A couple of years ago they went to one with these rules:

The auction closing time will be extended by 3 minutes whenever a new bid is submitted within the last 3 minutes of the end of the auction, up to a maximum of 1 hour.

 

[tug1873]

Ebay is a market place tilted towards the buyers.

I used to sell a lot on ebay but they are tweaking things always for the buyers and in the end sellers are left with nothing to show for their work.
Most buyers there are bottom feeders. I have to admit my timeshare purchases are because they were extra cheap.


I buy on ebay only if it is cheaper then elsewhere. I also avoid things easily stolen because they usually are.

As a seller ebay is something I avoid unless I just want to get rid of something. In that case anything above 99 cents is profit

 

[Bigrob]

I have a couple of timeshares in an LLC, I plan to sell these sometime next year on ebay. or if I cant get the price I want I will transfer them to one of my personal accounts.

The problem I have is how to do that without being accused of shilling. I could set a reserve price, but has been said here, that chases away a lot of buyers, or I could set my reserve by asking a trusted friend to put in an a bid with esnipe, but thats shill bidding and against ebay policy. Or I could put the thing up on my website, and on ebay. and if the e bay bidding doesnt get to where I want it to go, Ill just tell the high bidder "sorry it sold at the last minute off my website" and it did, My LLC sold it to me.

The last option is what some other ebay sellers do

I think my plan is valid and in no way illegal (selling it to the high bidder, which is me unless Im offered a better price on ebay) What do you think? and do you have any other ideas on how to accomplish it.

Ron, you might try what some other sellers are doing and set it as a BIN with Best Offer Accepted. You can evaluate the best offers. It almost ends up as a blind auction if it's desirable enough. I know Jeff Fudge lists most of his that way.

 

[csxjohn]

I disagree about setting the starting price where I want. Thats no different than a reserve in that it tends to chase potential buyers away

What I dont like about ebay and what makes it unlike any other auction Ive seen is the drop dead end of it. There is an exact time an auction ends. In a normal auction the bidding continues until there are no more bids.

What I like about ebay and why Ill use it when I decide to sell, is that there is no other place that brings as many new buyers and sellers to the table. I really do believe that that's how market price is determined. And if I can get market price, Im a happy camper (as long as market price means a profit for me.)

The difference between a reserve and a starting price is that the buyer knows the minimum price before the starts to bid.

Before you told be about esnipe I used to snipe myself. Before that I would bid when I felt like it. I once put a bid in on an item that had a reserve that had not yet been met. When I put my high bid it it registered at the reserve point.

I did not like that my bid went from very low to the reserve amount and locked me in.. Even though I was willing to pay that amount I did not expect to because no one else was bidding and I thought I'd get it cheaper than that bid that showed.

Someone ended up outbidding me so it ended well. I stay away from reserve auctions now but still will bid if I like the minimum.

 

[ronparise]

The difference between a reserve and a starting price is that the buyer knows the minimum price before the starts to bid.

Before you told be about esnipe I used to snipe myself. Before that I would bid when I felt like it. I once put a bid in on an item that had a reserve that had not yet been met. When I put my high bid it it registered at the reserve point.

I did not like that my bid went from very low to the reserve amount and locked me in.. Even though I was willing to pay that amount I did not expect to because no one else was bidding and I thought I'd get it cheaper than that bid that showed.

Someone ended up outbidding me so it ended well. I stay away from reserve auctions now but still will bid if I like the minimum.

John

I dont get it..If you bid I would think you wanted it and were willing to go as high as your bid price. If it were me I would say good for the guy that got it but I would say it ended well.

I think most folks are not like you, they would view the minimum like a reserve and steer clear

As for me, its not important yet. For my Wyndham points Ill wait for the day when Im confident prices are high enough to cover 2 years worth of maintenance fees...thats my target, and I dont think we are there quite yet, at least not for the highermf contracts.If we dont get there, Wyndham can have them back when I die

 

[ondeadlin]

There's nothing you can do about shill bidding. It's even possible in a pubic auction, i.e. the seller has a friend enter a bid that sets a floor in price. As noted in this thread, you just have to know what you're willing to pay and pay no more than that. I use Auction Sniper, set my amount, and forget it about it.

 

[tschwa2]

When I see a reserve on a place I am interested in, I usually message the seller and ask what the reserve is. Most sellers will tell you. As long as it isn't very far from what I consider a decent price, I still bid. My bid may or may not go over the reserve but would usually be in the same ball park.

For an auction with a minimum, if it is way above what I think is fair, I ignore it and don't bid. This covers many if not most of CJ's. If it is slightly above what I wanted to pay, I may bump up what I would have bid depending on how bad I want it.

I would much rather see a minimum listed, than deal with a company I suspect uses shill bidding. Likewise if an auction that had a high minimum is relisted at the same minimum or a slightly lower minimum, I look at more favorably than one that is relisted that had no minimum and ended with a bidder. Anytime I see this happen in a private listing I think shill.

 

[czar]

Ron, you might try what some other sellers are doing and set it as a BIN with Best Offer Accepted. You can evaluate the best offers. It almost ends up as a blind auction if it's desirable enough. I know Jeff Fudge lists most of his that way.

This is how I list - and buy - most everything on ebay now. I've sold on ebay for about a decade and times have changed. I recently won a bid auction for a product that sold for $500 less than it should. Sellers response: sorry, not letting it go for that. Likewise, I just sold something in a bidding process that went for about 30% more than it should have! and the buyer bailed.

On the flip side, buy it now makes it clear that everything is going to happen all at once - offer, acceptance, payment, shipping, etc. - and the best offer feature is a great add-on.

 

[csxjohn]

John

I dont get it..If you bid I would think you wanted it and were willing to go as high as your bid price. If it were me I would say good for the guy that got it but I would say it ended well.

I think most folks are not like you, they would view the minimum like a reserve and steer clear

As for me, its not important yet. For my Wyndham points Ill wait for the day when Im confident prices are high enough to cover 2 years worth of maintenance fees...thats my target, and I dont think we are there quite yet, at least not for the highermf contracts.If we dont get there, Wyndham can have them back when I die

My thinking at the time was that the bidding wasn't going to go anywhere near my max bid and if not and it didn't reach the reserve no one would get it.

I was surprised that when I put that bid in it registered at the reserve price. I was willing to pay what I bid but did not expect it to work that way. So when eBay says that your bid will only show as high as it needs to to beat a previous bid, that is not true in a reserve auction if you bid over the reserve.

 

[DanM]

Hi, bottom feeder here. As I've indicated before, I don't bid if there are multiple early bids, or a high reserve, or significant minimum bid. It is true that absent these things, eBay favors the buyer. That is why I am a buyer there. On the seller's side, they get more page views and bids in what buyers perceive as a buyers market. If they ran it like a traditional auction - bid until there are no bids - I suspect fewer people would participate. Ironically, that might lead to lower prices overall. It's all a trade off.
If you are willing to keep what you are selling, then a visible minimum bid is probably the least offensive to me as a buyer. On less expensive items, I do occasionally pay buy it now prices for certainty and speed, so I think that is a fair way to proceed too. Hidden reserves just annoy me.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

Ebay does not by any means favor the buyer. You could say auctions favor the buyer because they are usually fire sales, but that would be the auction concept and not just Ebay. Auctions exist because a seller needs to sell immediately, and in that sense the auction favors the seller because they are the initiator of the sale and they do so willingly.

Ebay favors Ebay. The fees are outrageous. They just sit back and collect massive revenue with extremely little risk. Their Stubhub operation is even a bigger example of sitting back and collecting billions. They take 25% of every ticket sold.

The shilling comes down to deceptive selling practices. Is it an auction? Is it a store front? Is it a store front disguised as an auction? I agree that if you know about the deception and want the item anyway then you should set your price and forget about it, but I tend to stay away from these sellers because they tend to drive the prices above my level of acceptance and the shenanigans waste my time.