Shill bidding in private auction

[stoler527]

How can you tell if shill bidding is occurring in a auction you are interested in?

I have a bad feeling about a private ebay auction. I really want the unit, but don't want to be ripped off.

 

[vacationtime1]

How can you tell if shill bidding is occurring in a auction you are interested in?

I have a bad feeling about a private ebay auction. I really want the unit, but don't want to be ripped off.

It's difficult to tell sometimes, but it should have zero effect on your strategy.

1. Determine how much you are willing to pay.

2. Snipe bid that amount with a few seconds remaining (use esnipe.com or similar services).

You will "win" the auction or you won't, but the shill bidding will not affect the outcome as it relates to your bid.

(If you "lose" the auction and later get a second chance offer from the seller, it is quite possible your high bid lost to a shill bid; how you respond -- perhaps a lower offer than what had been your highest bid -- is up to you.)

 

[csxjohn]

I partially agree with the above post.

You should determine the max you are willing to pay and bid at the last second.

The shill bidding, if it exists, will affect what you will pay by raising the final bid amount.

So it won't or shouldn't change what you bid but it may cause the winning bid to be higher than it should be.

If the private auction you are looking at also does not allow credit card purchases then you may be walking into a double whammy by bidding.

There are a couple current threads about buyers being strung out for months with no recourse to get their money back and with no help from eBay.

 

[ronparise]

A lot depends on how you define "ripped off" If youmean pay more than its worth, I agree...dont do that. But if you mean pay more than you might otherwise, but still less than what its worth to you. You still got a deal...dont worry.

As vacationtime1 said...set your price, (a price as high as possible but no more than what its worth to you) and forget it...you cant get ripped off that way

 

[Saintsfanfl]

It's difficult to tell sometimes, but it should have zero effect on your strategy.

1. Determine how much you are willing to pay.

2. Snipe bid that amount with a few seconds remaining (use esnipe.com or similar services).

You will "win" the auction or you won't, but the shill bidding will not affect the outcome as it relates to your bid.

(If you "lose" the auction and later get a second chance offer from the seller, it is quite possible your high bid lost to a shill bid; how you respond -- perhaps a lower offer than what had been your highest bid -- is up to you.)

Shill bidding most definitely can effect the outcome of the auction. Just because you are willing to pay X doesn't mean you should be forced to fraudulently. If the winning bid is lower than your max then that is the fair price to pay. Anything higher equates to being ripped off.

Look at it this way. A big buyer buys on ebay and has total purchases of $100k during a year. $20k of it was due to fraudulent shill bidding so the total purchases would have been $80k without the fraud. This ends up being no different than if the purchaser had $20k stolen from them.

Would you pay more than list price for an item in the store just because you are "willing" to? It really is the same thing except with an auction the "list" price is not yet known.

Shilling is fraud and even a felony in some states.

 

[ronparise]

Shill bidding most definitely can effect the outcome of the auction. Just because you are willing to pay X doesn't mean you should be forced to fraudulently. If the winning bid is lower than your max then that is the fair price to pay. Anything higher equates to being ripped off.

Look at it this way. A big buyer buys on ebay and has total purchases of $100k during a year. $20k of it was due to fraudulent shill bidding so the total purchases would have been $80k without the fraud. This ends up being no different than if the purchaser had $20k stolen from them.

Would you pay more than list price for an item in the store just because you are "willing" to? It really is the same thing except with an auction the "list" price is not yet known.

Shilling is fraud and even a felony in some states.

You dont know if its shill bidding or not, but if you think it is and cant stand the thought of being taken advantage of...Then dont bid... and if you know its shill bidding call the cops, But if you want the deal, know you are playing in the wild wild west and bid

I take a pragmatic attitude to this stuff. If I want it and Im willing to pay $XX.xx dollars, and I get it for $XX.xx dollars, Im happy. and I dont care if the top $1000 or more was stolen from me. If I dont get it because I was out bid by a dollar....Im happy then too

Remember the op says he wants this deal....

 

[sjuhawk_jd]

Shilling is fraud and even a felony in some states.

Most PCCs committ both of those even without Shilling :annoyed:

 

[rickandcindy23]

I entered a bid on an auction recently, and suddenly the bid went above $1000. I only bid $109, and I was not going to bid that high for a mediocre RCI Points contract.

It is a private auction. It supposedly "sold" for the $1000+ price, and the same thing was listed within hours by the same seller. I entered a bid with ezsniper instead of bidding on the auction actively. It has once again gotten private bids, which are now way out of my price range at over $700.

I won't try it again, nor will I buy from that seller.

 

[GrayFal]

I entered a bid on an auction recently, and suddenly the bid went above $1000. I only bid $109, and I was not going to bid that high for a mediocre RCI Points contract.

It is a private auction. It supposedly "sold" for the $1000+ price, and the same thing was listed within hours by the same seller. I entered a bid with ezsniper instead of bidding on the auction actively. It has once again gotten private bids, which are now way out of my price range at over $700.

I won't try it again, nor will I buy from that seller.

Agree...

 

[dioxide45]

I think they shill to run up the price to see what the max bid is out there. This is a problem with bidding your max early. It gives everyone else a chance to see the ceiling on the current high bid when the shill runs it up. When the shill wins, they offer a second chance to what was the real highest bid.

EBay really has no incentive to stop this since higher final bid amounts mean more fees and more profit.

ETA: This didn't happen a few years ago on an EBay auction we won. We bid in the $1200 range and we won at $800. Of course we used a snip service to bid in the last few seconds giving a shill no chance to run up the max bid. Of course this was a more reputable seller that is no longer around.

 

[jc92869]

A threat to the democratic process.

Ok. so the tittle is a bit extremist, but I think that shill bidding on auctions is akin to electoral fraud.

The point of an auction is that the price is set by the people based on the demand for the product. Auctions are democratic in nature and operate on the mutual understanding between the buyer and the seller that the final price will be set by the buyer. this is in contrast to retail, haggling, or negotiating in which the seller has greater control on the purchase terms.

Shill bidding is an artificial inflation of the price and ethically infringes on the power of the consumer decreasing his or her influence and control.

Of course the buyer can choose to not participate in an auction, but do we really want to live in a world where democracy is compromised?

 

[ronparise]

I think they shill to run up the price to see what the max bid is out there. This is a problem with bidding your max early. It gives everyone else a chance to see the ceiling on the current high bid when the shill runs it up. When the shill wins, they offer a second chance to what was the real highest bid.

EBay really has no incentive to stop this since higher final bid amounts mean more fees and more profit.

ETA: This didn't happen a few years ago on an EBay auction we won. We bid in the $1200 range and we won at $800. Of course we used a snip service to bid in the last few seconds giving a shill no chance to run up the max bid. Of course this was a more reputable seller that is no longer around.

ebays incentive is that they want to run an honest transparent auction service

timeshare auctions are fixed fees on ebay $35 to list and $35 upon sale

 

[ronparise]

Ok. so the tittle is a bit extremist, but I think that shill bidding on auctions is akin to electoral fraud.

The point of an auction is that the price is set by the people based on the demand for the product. Auctions are democratic in nature and operate on the mutual understanding between the buyer and the seller that the final price will be set by the buyer. this is in contrast to retail, haggling, or negotiating in which the seller has greater control on the purchase terms.

Shill bidding is an artificial inflation of the price and ethically infringes on the power of the consumer decreasing his or her influence and control.

Of course the buyer can choose to not participate in an auction, but do we really want to live in a world where democracy is compromised?

I agree 100% I dont want to live in such a world.....but I do, so I compromise my principles and participate...

 

[Saintsfanfl]

ebays incentive is that they want to run an honest transparent auction service

This is true. Ebay does have fraud detection software and personnel and they can and regularly do send warnings to detected shiller bidders. There have even been criminal charges pressed against shill ebayers in states like NJ where it is a felony.

 

[sjsharkie]

ebays incentive is that they want to run an honest transparent auction service

timeshare auctions are fixed fees on ebay $35 to list and $35 upon sale

I also second this. eBay spends millions of dollars on their trust and safety department. They understand that this is an important component of their overall brand.

Preventing shill bidding is one of those things where they have algorithms to detect suspected fraudulent activity. They might not catch the one offs that do it once or twice -- but they will catch the volume sellers eventually and prosecute them to the extent state laws allow.

-ryan

 

[timesharepro]

Sellers Points of View

As a volume seller of timeshares on eBay, I can tell you that it does not make sense for us to shill bid on our auctions. We have anywhere from 50 - 130 properties per week to list on eBay. Shill bidding would be a waste of our time as we are already spending a large portion of our time trying to get buyers to send their contact information. We would rather spend our time working with a buyer who is happy about purchasing the unit for $1, then trying to bid it up to $10 and then having to send a second chance offer. Our average sales price is just under $200 on eBay. Would I like it to be more? Absolutely, but at the cost of getting shut down from eBay and not being able to list thousands of properties a year? Absolutely not.

 

[tschwa2]

But there is also no reason to keep an ebay auction private like some do. Even when someone leaves feedback you can't tell what they bought so it makes it harder to evaluate the feedback.

 

[e.bram]

The way i look at it, shill bidding is essentially the same as setting a reserve price.

 

[DanM]

Back to post two. The only practical approach to bidding in an online auction is to snipe. Any other method, regardless of rationale, is wrong. There have actually been academic studies to prove this. It is true that a shill bidder can push things higher than the snipe would otherwise go, but it is unlikely a shill would raise the bids dramatically during an auction if there were no bids during the auction. I tend to not even snipe on auctions with multiple bids because why compete with people who don't understand value?

 

[bogey21]

ebays incentive is that they want to run an honest transparent auction service...

I don't agree with this. Years ago when you checked bids on an item Ebay would show the Ebay ID of the bidder. They changed this a couple of years ago to substitute some nondescript letters and numbers for the bidders real ID. Thus they made it impossible to check the purchase and sales history of bidders. IMO the only reason Ebay made this change was to disguise the IDs of shill bidders who drive up the price and thus EBay's commissions.

George

 

[ronparise]

I don't agree with this. Years ago when you checked bids on an item Ebay would show the Ebay ID of the bidder. They changed this a couple of years ago to substitute some nondescript letters and numbers for the bidders real ID. Thus they made it impossible to check the purchase and sales history of bidders. IMO the only reason Ebay made this change was to disguise the IDs of shill bidders who drive up the price and thus EBay's commissions.

George

maybe, but higher bids and sale prices dont result in higher commissions for timeshare auctions...their fees are the same no matter the sale price.

 

[csxjohn]

I don't agree with this. Years ago when you checked bids on an item Ebay would show the Ebay ID of the bidder. They changed this a couple of years ago to substitute some nondescript letters and numbers for the bidders real ID. Thus they made it impossible to check the purchase and sales history of bidders. IMO the only reason Ebay made this change was to disguise the IDs of shill bidders who drive up the price and thus EBay's commissions.

George

The nondescript letters and numbers are consistent. It is possible to see what's going on to an extent within an auction and in other auctions by the same seller if you watch closely.

You can't do this with the ridiculous "private" auctions.

This still doesn't really help much in trying to detect shill bidding and even if you suspect it there's not much you can really do about it except not to bid.

There is an eBay seller that I won't bid on because I have seen the same bidder bid a certain way on different auctions by that seller and I suspect it's a shill bidder.

 

[bogey21]

maybe, but higher bids and sale prices dont result in higher commissions for timeshare auctions...their fees are the same no matter the sale price.

....but TS auctions are only a small part of EBay's business.

George

 

[tug1873]

It's hard to tell a real bidder from a shill bidder. Ebay has systems in place to detect shills. But I will be the first to admit shilling is a lot more common ebay then anyone wants to admit.

At the end of the day shilling is no different then a reserve price. Actually it may be worse for the seller because they have to pay fees.

The best advice is to figure out what it's worth to you and never go over that amount. That goes for any auction out there. If the seller is stuck with the item then eventually they will sell it for what it is worth. Also remember sometimes it better to lose auctions then win.

Hotel prices are on the rise so I expect the values of all timeshares are on the rise as well. That is why you are seeing higher prices on ebay.

 

[csxjohn]

...The best advice is to figure out what it's worth to you and never go over that amount. That goes for any auction out there. ....

I agree with this and on eBay it is easy to do, just put in your only bid a few seconds before the auction ends. I now use esnipe to do this for me thanks to a heads up by Ron.

This keeps emotion out of the equation, if you win fine, if you lose, sometimes better as tug1873 pointed out.