Sell DIY instead of a Broker or Purchasing without a Broker

[Reisenbeis]

@Reisenbeis Glad to hear this worked out for you. Sometimes families want out (for example, a spouse dies) and they don't know the value, may be in grief and shock. But that's why they hire a broker who knows the market.

Was this a listing that the broker was representing (and was getting paid a commission by the seller) and she negotiated down price with the owner/seller that she was representing? or was this offered by a different broker?

If this was the former this is a dereliction of duty to get the best price as representative broker for the seller. The broker should know these deeds are worth much more.

She was not working in a dual agency situation. She was just representing me as the buyer.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I am glad it was not Judi's. It sounds like she earned your commission given your situation. This dereliction is on the selling broker then.

What most buyers and sellers don't realize is that most timeshare brokers work on a fixed commission. Unlike a primary home sale where there is a commission percentage of final price, there is little if no incentive to get the seller the best price. It is a volume business so closing the deal is the only way they get paid no matter what price the seller ultimately nets. Sellers may be looking to the broker to get them the best price, but selling brokers are not incented to do so.

 

[GT75]

This dereliction is on the selling broker then.

Well, it depends on what the seller’s instructions were to the broker. The seller could have said, “sell as quickly as possible” for some reason.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Well, it depends on what the seller’s instructions were to the broker. The seller could have said, “sell as quickly as possible” for some reason.

It's possible and some sellers don't care about the difference. However I believe the actual population is quite small. $1500 is a lot of money for many people.

But don't you think it is ethical/incumbent on the broker to advise the seller as to what comps are selling for given they are paying a fixed commission of $750 - $1500+ for this broker to get the best price for them?

Perhaps the family is in grief/shock from death or failing health so it is especially incumbent on the broker to advise and disclose so they can make the right decision. That is only further damage to a seller that is vulnerable and is trusting the broker.

Bottom line: The selling broker gets the same commission no matter the selling price so it is possible the broker wanted to close quickly to earn the commission and move on. It is important to understand how people are compensated so you know how they will act.

 

[HuskerATL]

It's possible and some sellers don't care about the difference. However I believe the actual population is quite small. $1500 is a lot of money for many people.

But don't you think it is ethical/incumbent on the broker to advise the seller as to what comps are selling for given they are paying a fixed commission of $750 - $1500+ for this broker to get the best price for them?

Perhaps the family is in grief/shock from death or failing health so it is especially incumbent on the broker to advise and disclose so they can make the right decision. That is only further damage to a seller that is vulnerable and is trusting the broker.

Bottom line: The selling broker gets the same commission no matter the selling price so it is possible the broker wanted to close quickly to earn the commission and move on. It is important to understand how people are compensated so you know how they will act.

I would think that the broker would advise the seller of a reasonable amount based on current market conditions...

 

[CalGalTraveler]

In theory yes. Clearly this was not current market conditions based on recent comps for similar deeds. I suspect that the listing was in a general real estate MLS which is not a great source for promoting timeshares. Perhaps the selling broker was not a timeshare real estate broker and was ignorant as to where to best list timeshares. So perhaps the property sat a long time on the MLS because of that ignorance and the family became impatient.

We will never know whether this broker acted responsibly by following the wishes of the seller, or was an inept timeshare broker, or pushed the seller to sell so they could get their commission and move on. Regardless this is a great case study and cautionary tale to help owners to understand what brokers will and will not do for them when it comes time to exit.

 

[drucifer]

I am glad it was not Judi's. It sounds like she earned your commission given your situation. This dereliction is on the selling broker then.

What most buyers and sellers don't realize is that most timeshare brokers work on a fixed commission. Unlike a primary home sale where there is a commission percentage of final price, there is little if no incentive to get the seller the best price. It is a volume business so closing the deal is the only way they get paid no matter what price the seller ultimately nets. Sellers may be looking to the broker to get them the best price, but selling brokers are not incented to do so.

Realistically, most brokers of homes also don't care that much about the selling price.
That is, if a house is worth $500k, and they get $450k, essentially taking a 10% cut to market value, the commission is 6% and split between the buying and selling broker at 3% each (at least around here).
So would a broker prefer an easy sale with a $13,500 commission and move on to the next deal, or work really hard for a $15,000 commission? Most brokers will take the easy sell and try to do a couple more of those a year than struggle to get the full value (or more) out of a house.

 

[mountainboy]

Not always. Had one a while back where they used something else and it was a total train wreck.
But I do agree that Grand Vacations title does get things done very quickly (and expensively, IMO, compared to LT Transfers)

Same experience here :-(

 

[mountainboy]

An interesting viewpoint(s) I've seen on the FB pages for HGV "ownership" (there's two I'm in) regarding resale purchases is that folks are very leery of resale purchases period EVEN THROUGH BROKERS/REALTORS. Thus they feel comfortable buying direct (and paying a LOT more). While I personally don't see that viewpoint (I'm all about saving money--haha and learned my lessons the hard way), I can definitely see why folks (who have that viewpoint) would also want to sell via Broker/Realtor vs. DIY.

I have sold units DIY on FB and used LT Transfers both times. Worked flawlessly/great.

Agree, LT Transfers is AMAZING!

 

[mountainboy]

Agree that this is much simpler than selling "normal" real property particularly with HGVC. I don't have any experience with other systems but HGVC provides the estoppel to confirm ownership interest and identify delinquent MFs due - and will not let a sale proceed if there is an encumbrance (mortgage) on the deed. Combine that with a reputable closing company that sets up an escrow for the closing, that really takes away the fear of fraud.

I'm just getting in the system so I don't expect to sell anytime soon - but when I do I plan on doing it myself.

re: Selling DIY. Because it is deeded many owners equate buying and selling a timeshare to the complications of buying and selling a home. Far from it. You use Redweek verified to verify the deed exists, and a reputable 3rd party escrow company. That's it. No inspections nor disclosures nor staging nor open houses like a primary home. No more difficult than writing up a listing and renting out your timeshare week on Redweek.

What value does the broker bring to a timeshare sale? I have used brokers who have made errors on the initial contract**, put clumsy errors on the listing, have been unresponsive about updates and slow responding to buyers, and did no checking of the final paperwork. The third party escrow company communicates with the developer to set up your account and obtain the estoppel. In one case we had to file a corrective deed because of an error we discovered. Brokers were no where to be found.***

Many owners don't even know DIY is an option. Yet I see on TUG and Facebook people arguing about $1000 and $2000 offer differences yet they don't question this element of the sale. IMHO I would much rather see an owner earn this money because it is doesn't require much effort.



** The escrow closing companies will provide you with standard sales contracts where you fill in names of the seller and buyer in the blanks. You don't need a broker for this.
*** We have never worked with Judi so YMMV.

Agree 100%.

Much simpler buying from individual owner; able to review points statement, zero balance on HGV website/app and even deed on Clark county website (for Vegas deed) before moving forward with transaction. Esp with LT Transfers, Estoppel etc, very easy process & very fast/efficient communication.

With broker, she was like, 'your closing co will see on Estoppel' (re clean title, zero balance etc), 'not my job' (?)
You would think one would/should get more better svc/better communication with broker, for paying extra/premium to buy from them, but was exact opposite experience for me

Also, do NOT use LT Transfer with a Broker. LT has to route everything through the broker (with inherent slowdowns). Every communication is sent separately to seller vs the buyer, and vetted through broker 1st. More fees (LT also charges an extra $100 fee on top of usual fees), for extra work for them to send everything to broker 1st etc. + Admin Fees ($500) and commission for broker (usual $1000-1500, from seller, but effects 'sale price')

The brokers (& their staff) are likely too busy (& much slower in responding), so everything moves much slower.

I will likely never buy from broker again, unless deed unavailable elsewhere

 

[yodaDaenerys]

I am trying DIY, after listing with Judi for a while. My EOY window passed, so they didn't expect much activity for a while, hence I think they wouldn't be marketing it much until later.

My question is, when do I engage LT Transfers? As I market it, and hopefully get some contact/offers, to what stage do I take it before LT comes into the picture? Do I need a contract, or purchase agreement before engaging LT?

 

[HuskerATL]

I am trying DIY, after listing with Judi for a while. My EOY window passed, so they didn't expect much activity for a while, hence I think they wouldn't be marketing it much until later.

My question is, when do I engage LT Transfers? As I market it, and hopefully get some contact/offers, to what stage do I take it before LT comes into the picture? Do I need a contract, or purchase agreement before engaging LT?

@CalGalTraveler , amongst others in TUG have used LT so they can provide feedback. You can reach out to LT now though and they can tell you their process.

 

[yodaDaenerys]

i had already written LT Transfers before posting. I checked email after my post above and they've already gotten back with clear instructions that answer all my questions.

 

[HuskerATL]

everyone that I know, who have used them, have been happy with the services.

 

[mountainboy]

i had already written LT Transfers before posting. I checked email after my post above and they've already gotten back with clear instructions that answer all my questions.

LT is phenomenal! Highly responsive! (and very inexpensive)!
Highly recommended over a broker!
Suggest share details about your deed here at TUG marketplace or Redweek or FB HGV Resale bulletin board and then use LT to sell or give away!
All the best in rehoming your TS!

 

[Chris-ATX]

As a side note - it seems to me the brokers have raised their fees again in the last couple of months.

I tried really hard to buy 2 deeds from one broker, same deed (location, type, etc) and the broker wouldn’t give any consideration for the combined deal. The higher fees (plus they wanted me to also pay the transfer and estoppel charges) made the deals untenable. Which was really too bad as we wanted those. But I wasn’t going to pay double the deed price to get closed. (Deed + closing = 2x the deed price). The broker simply wouldn’t have added any value.

Honestly, I’m amazed at the sycophant grovelling many on the FB board have to the brokers.

 

[HuskerATL]

As a side note - it seems to me the brokers have raised their fees again in the last couple of months.

I tried really hard to buy 2 deeds from one broker, same deed (location, type, etc) and the broker wouldn’t give any consideration for the combined deal. The higher fees (plus they wanted me to also pay the transfer and estoppel charges) made the deals untenable. Which was really too bad as we wanted those. But I wasn’t going to pay double the deed price to get closed. (Deed + closing = 2x the deed price). The broker simply wouldn’t have added any value.

Honestly, I’m amazed at the sycophant grovelling many on the FB board have to the brokers.

Compared to retail, they are good deals... That is their comparison to many because that is what they know. Since we have been buying Craig Lodges, that only have a 195 pound legal fee and then 347 pound point activation if you want to add them to HGVC, it would be hard for us to buy one with closing fees.

 

[mountainboy]

As a side note - it seems to me the brokers have raised their fees again in the last couple of months.

I tried really hard to buy 2 deeds from one broker, same deed (location, type, etc) and the broker wouldn’t give any consideration for the combined deal. The higher fees (plus they wanted me to also pay the transfer and estoppel charges) made the deals untenable. Which was really too bad as we wanted those. But I wasn’t going to pay double the deed price to get closed. (Deed + closing = 2x the deed price). The broker simply wouldn’t have added any value.

Honestly, I’m amazed at the sycophant grovelling many on the FB board have to the brokers.

Compared to retail, they are good deals... That is their comparison to many because that is what they know. Since we have been buying Craig Lodges, that only have a 195 pound legal fee and then 347 pound point activation if you want to add them to HGVC, it would be hard for us to buy one with closing fees.

Amen to that! 100%!

 

[mountainboy]

Compared to retail, they are good deals... That is their comparison to many because that is what they know. Since we have been buying Craig Lodges, that only have a 195 pound legal fee and then 347 pound point activation if you want to add them to HGVC, it would be hard for us to buy one with closing fees.

LT's closing fee is 255 + minimal recording fees.
Had a 2 interval deed from seller; LT only charged one fee for the 2 intervals on that deed; only 1 estoppel from HGV & only 1 resort transfer fee from HGV (as both, enrolled at same time) (realize separate 715 activation fee from HGV, for each).
So, these can happen but I realize the brokers seem to have a chokehold on the deal-flow (& add to the price inflation). But if given choice of retail vs resale, brokers are still a significant saving.
Agree the FB group is mostly being used as a funnel for that broker (with every other post tooting her horn & worshipping her). Really sad, where this group could be a wonderful source for deals for both sellers & buyers rather than just leads for the broker (which it has become).

 

[HuskerATL]

LT's closing fee is 255 + minimal recording fees.
Had a 2 interval deed from seller; LT only charged one fee for the 2 intervals on that deed; only 1 estoppel from HGV & only 1 resort transfer fee from HGV (as both, enrolled at same time) (realize separate 715 activation fee from HGV, for each).
So, these can happen but I realize the brokers seem to have a chokehold on the deal-flow (& add to the price inflation). But if given choice of retail vs resale, brokers are still a significant saving.
Agree the FB group is mostly being used as a funnel for that broker (with every other post tooting her horn & worshipping her). Really sad, where this group could be a wonderful source for deals for both sellers & buyers rather than just leads for the broker (which it has become).

Brokers have commission and the fee that their closing company charges, which may be higher than LTs. The rest of the fees are standard fees in all closing such as the estoppel, etc. Like you mentioned, all the intervals later get billed by HGV for the activation fee...which is another chunk.

I think the well known brokers are good about hand holding and making sure things are done right. I know one that got a great deal for @GT75 , that can work out also. Yes, they have additional fees but they do the heavy lifting....but you pay for it. For instance, when we dumped our Tuscany Village, Judi did it for me. She did all the work and the repeated hounding of the "buyer" to sign the paperwork. Since I have known her for a while, she waived her commission but her closing company does charge a bit more than LTs...for, essentially, the same work. So, it just depends on how hands on/hands off you want to be. We bought our Blvd through Diane and she did a great job...but, again, I paid a bit extra because of her involvement. I would absolutely use LT but I would also use some of the brokers, it just depends on the situation.

 

[jp10558]

Brokers have commission and the fee that their closing company charges, which may be higher than LTs. The rest of the fees are standard fees in all closing such as the estoppel, etc. Like you mentioned, all the intervals later get billed by HGV for the activation fee...which is another chunk.

I think the well known brokers are good about hand holding and making sure things are done right. I know one that got a great deal for @GT75 , that can work out also. Yes, they have additional fees but they do the heavy lifting....but you pay for it. For instance, when we dumped our Tuscany Village, Judi did it for me. She did all the work and the repeated hounding of the "buyer" to sign the paperwork. Since I have known her for a while, she waived her commission but her closing company does charge a bit more than LTs...for, essentially, the same work. So, it just depends on how hands on/hands off you want to be. We bought our Blvd through Diane and she did a great job...but, again, I paid a bit extra because of her involvement. I would absolutely use LT but I would also use some of the brokers, it just depends on the situation.

I think I'd try and buy without a broker "next time". I kind of got herded into a FL deed when I was responding to a listing on TUG2 that no longer existed, nor did any listed - the brokers don't clean it up and it was kind of baitnswitch. I much prefer all my other purchases via ebay or free timeshare forum where I actually can see all the details and think it over vs a phone call with kind of hurried options read out to me. I think Craig would be by next purchase if I do buy more HGVC.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@CalGalTraveler , amongst others in TUG have used LT so they can provide feedback. You can reach out to LT now though and they can tell you their process.

Yes, I have used LT transfers for both buying and selling. If you don't mind the tire kickers on the selling side (there aren't many), can list on TUG and Redweek certified (not full service) and you have a property that is in demand, what is the value of a broker?

LT has a draft purchasing contract template (I updated with a few items. For example, I specify that seller takes the deposit to cover any upfront costs the seller has incurred if deed has passed estoppel/ROFR and the buyer backs out at the last minute.)

 

[HuskerATL]

Yes, I have used LT transfers for both buying and selling. If you don't mind the tire kickers on the selling side (there aren't many), can list on TUG and Redweek certified (not full service) and you have a property that is in demand, what is the value of a broker?

LT has a draft purchasing contract template (I updated with a few items. For example, I specify that seller takes the deposit to cover any upfront costs the seller has incurred if deed has passed estoppel/ROFR and the buyer backs out at the last minute.)

sometimes, deeds are only available via a broker...such as when HGV pushes the deeds, that they have taken back, to their partner brokers. Overall though, I do agree that it can be done with LT just as easy and much cheaper. I will say though, when Judi did our Tuscany, the folks talking it needed constant hand holding and hounding to sign forms....she did that, not me.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@HuskerATL LT sends regular reminders.

BTW...that is another clause I add to the selling agreement to keep it moving forward: The buyer has 60 days to complete the terms of the deal from purchase contract signing unless there is a delay by the developer. If they drag their feet, the contract becomes null and void, purchase deposit will be taken by the seller as compensation.