Scientists Say Turin Shroud Image Created by UltraViolet Lasers

[Ridewithme38]

If that's easier to believe for you, Ride.

National Geographic and History Channel just present the facts. It's very interesting to watch, and I know a few people who didn't believe in anything they could not see and touch, literally doubting Thomases, but no longer. You don't even have to watch these shows with an open mind.

Yup, i don't know if the Shroud is real or if it fraud, but i know that we have no evidence that it was ever used on any specific person and with the thousands upon thousands of people that WERE crucified during that time frame and assuming it is real and is an image of an actual person, used in the way guessed at.....That person could be ANYONE

"Sadly, we have seen many claims spread in the Web made by journalist/bloggers that discuss the content of a paper they never read," lead researcher Paolo Di Lazzaro told me today in an email. "It is obvious that a serious scientific work cannot prove any supernatural action. We have shown that the most advanced technology available today is unable to replicate all the characteristics of the Shroud image. As a consequence, we may argue it appears unlikely a forger may have done this image with technologies available in the Middle Ages or earlier. The probability the Shroud is a medieval fake is really low. In this sense, the Shroud image is still a scientific challenge."

 

[jme]

Yup, i don't know if the Shroud is real or if it fraud, but i know that we have no evidence that it was ever used on any specific person and with the thousands upon thousands of people that WERE crucified during that time frame and assuming it is real and is an image of an actual person, used in the way guessed at.....That person could be ANYONE

anyone who wore a crown of thorns, i guess

 

[Ridewithme38]

anyone who wore a crown of thorns, i guess

Any of the thousands, according to historical reference

 

[myoakley]

It amazes me the lengths that some will go to explain away the miraculous and the supernatural. I am reminded of a trip 2 years ago to Fatima, Portugal, the site of 6 Marian apparitions in 1917. I asked a tour guide how people explained the sun "dancing" in the sky if they ruled out its being a response to the 3 children's pleadings for a miracle in order for people to believe them. The wild gyrations of the sun were witnessed by more than 75,000 people, were photographed, and published on the front page of Portuguese newspapers. Her response, "It may have been a UFO!"

 

[Passepartout]

The various TV shows, articles, scientific journals aside, The shroud is a very interesting relic. No question about it. Whether one is believer or not, the presence of the shroud demonstrates a darn good phenomenon, trick, demonstration of scientific principle or something. I don't know what caused the image to transfer to a piece of linen and neither does anyone else.

I can understand the owner- in this case the Catholic Church- not allowing further testing. Until recently, fairly large samples have required destruction to perform tests and they don't want their relic poked full of holes. Also, they have nothing to gain by finding out it's origin, makeup, and the cause of the image transfer. That they and their followers believe that it is what they say it is perpetuates the story that was put forth centuries ago.

One would hope, however, that as time goes on, testing will require ever smaller and ever less destructive methods to ascertain the characteristics of the sample. Perhaps someday they will allow testing to put the issue to rest. For the believers, enough testing has already been done. For the doubters, there will never be enough testing to prove their point beyond doubt. I doubt I will live long enough to see it.

Jim

 

[Ridewithme38]

It amazes me the lengths that some will go to explain away the miraculous and the supernatural. I am reminded of a trip 2 years ago to Fatima, Portugal, the site of 6 Marian apparitions in 1917. I asked a tour guide how people explained the sun "dancing" in the sky if they ruled out its being a response to the 3 children's pleadings for a miracle in order for people to believe them. The wild gyrations of the sun were witnessed by more than 75,000 people, were photographed, and published on the front page of Portuguese newspapers. Her response, "It may have been a UFO!"

I haven't heard the UFO claim, but alot of other scientific explanation have come forward...It was hardly a 'miracle'

Most of what's popularly reported about the sun incident, such as the colors and the spinning, comes from Father John de Marchi, a Catholic priest who spent years interviewing eyewitnesses to build evidence supporting the miraculous event. But more objective assessments of the eyewitness accounts have found very little evidence of a single shared experience. Author Kevin McClure, who also compiled eyewitness accounts, reported that he had "never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts in any of the research I have done in the past 10 years." If you were there, as a devout Catholic (otherwise you wouldn't be there), you fully believed in a miracle happening that day (otherwise you wouldn't be there), whether you personally saw anything or not you'd support the majority opinion, and probably go to your grave insisting that a miracle happened there. There's no surprise that Father de Marchi was able to form a consensus description of a spinning color wheel of a sun, and no need for any actual event to justify his consensus.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110

 

[Ridewithme38]

I can understand the owner- in this case the Catholic Church- not allowing further testing. Until recently, fairly large samples have required destruction to perform tests and they don't want their relic poked full of holes. Also, they have nothing to gain by finding out it's origin, makeup, and the cause of the image transfer. That they and their followers believe that it is what they say it is perpetuates the story that was put forth centuries ago.

Jim

One could, very validly, argue that they have ALOT to loose if the origin, makeup and cause are proven against them...

 

[derb]

The fact that a piece of cloth could generate so much attention by so many people from so many places over such an extended period of time with no positive conclusions is a Miracle in itself.
Even the Catholic church neither confirms nor denies its authenticity.

 

[rickandcindy23]

One could, very validly, argue that they have ALOT to loose if the origin, makeup and cause are proven against them...

Ride, you are such a Doubting Thomas. Seriously. You need to look into it more.

You should watch the shows and then make up your mind. See why scientists studying the shroud have been both baffled and changed.

I don't want to have this thread closed, so let's keep it away from a religious discussion, although I know it's difficult

There is another head cloth called the Sudarium, which is in Spain. This piece of cloth has a longer history. It also fits well with the Shroud.

 

[Ridewithme38]

The fact that a piece of cloth could generate so much attention by so many people from so many places over such an extended period of time with no positive conclusions is a Miracle in itself.
Even the Catholic church neither confirms nor denies its authenticity.

I think its more of a miracle that people like the Kardashians and Paris Hilton are famous

 

[easyrider]

There are many early Christian relics. All of these relics have a story and a purpose. The Shroud of Turin is the only relic to show the Holy Face of Jesus and has been the subject of pilgrimages by many including Pope Paul and Pope Benidict.
In the same way a Cross or Crucifix is used on an alter of a church, the shroud is an object of devotion for many.
The new scientific evidence is that the image on the shroud was created by the "Light of the Resurection" which can not be replicated by man.

 

[Ridewithme38]

The new scientific evidence is that the image on the shroud was created by the "Light of the Resurection" which can not be replicated by man.

I wonder about 'scientific evidence' that can't be reproduced, i'm pretty sure from what i remember from college, you can't have 'scientific evidence' without reproducible results

 

[myoakley]

There is another head cloth called the Sudarium, which is in Spain. This piece of cloth has a longer history. It also fits well with the Shroud.

Thanks, Cindy and Rick for mentioning the Sudarium. I had never heard of it, but I did some research, and the facts concerning it are quite compelling, also.

 

[scrapngen]

It amazes me the lengths that some will go to explain away the miraculous and the supernatural. I am reminded of a trip 2 years ago to Fatima, Portugal, the site of 6 Marian apparitions in 1917. I asked a tour guide how people explained the sun "dancing" in the sky if they ruled out its being a response to the 3 children's pleadings for a miracle in order for people to believe them. The wild gyrations of the sun were witnessed by more than 75,000 people, were photographed, and published on the front page of Portuguese newspapers. Her response, "It may have been a UFO!"

It fascinates me that a "UFO" would be more believable in today's culture. I don't think that would have been a legitimate answer 50 years ago...

Personally, I find the scientific study of the shroud to be very interesting as it relates to a belief specifically because they haven't been able to DISprove it! That in itself lends credence to the claims... (hmmm...was I able to say that without violating TUG rules?? - I tried )

 

[Ridewithme38]

. Using a two-part hypothesis I put forward in 1983, Italian chemist Luigi Garlaschelli has produced a replica shroud with such superficial staining.

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...n-a-flash-italian-researchers-resurrect-claim

It's disproved many times, the problem is that nothing can rule out 100% of all possibilities, the scientists that have disproved it have been attacked by claims so ridiculous that they are laughable, but some are desperate to believe in the supernatural, that even those ridiculous claims are believed...The ufo believers and the people that believe in 'global banking conspiracies' are the same way

 

[rickandcindy23]

Thanks, Cindy and Rick for mentioning the Sudarium. I had never heard of it, but I did some research, and the facts concerning it are quite compelling, also.

They talk about the Sudarium cloth in the specials I keep telling people to watch. I heard of it years ago and forgot all about it.

A forensics specialist in the National Geographic special studies the cloth meticulously, and he talks about blood flow and blood type, the type of wounds the victim suffered, the folded thumbs, wounds on the head, and every little detail of the cloth.

It's old fabric, and because of its age, the Vatican is very careful to only allow viewing occasionally. How many pieces of cloth survive air, fire and water, as this cloth has? It's not a miracle its survived (maybe?), but it is definitely a testament of how special it is to so many. When it was in the fire, there was great concern about that piece of cloth. It survived the fire because it was important to people.

 

[Carol C]

who says realities of life only exist in the scientific realm? (you cannot address ANY subject without taking into account the total sum of knowledge, and you therefore cannot exclude other relevant facts.) to the contrary, they do not, and there are little hints along the way, sometimes ignored in spite of the evidence.... p.s. my life has been an ongoing study of the sciences, beginning with biology and chemistry double majors, followed by a doctorate degree. Am I unscientific? Hardly. (Merry Christmas!)

What jme said! Oh, and Merry Christmas to Marty...and to all my TUGger friends old and new!

 

[jme]

What jme said! Oh, and Merry Christmas to Marty...and to all my TUGger friends old and new!

same to you, my good friend Carol. It's a special time of year for so many reasons, but one in particular.....I received a gift that is unspeakable and immeasurable. As they say, forever is a long time. Merry Christmas

 

[rickandcindy23]

same to you, my good friend Carol. It's a special time of year for so many reasons, but one in particular.....I received a gift that is unspeakable and immeasurable. As they say, forever is a long time. Merry Christmas

Absolutely! Merry Christmas to all!

 

[pgnewarkboy]

Ride, you are such a Doubting Thomas. Seriously. You need to look into it more.

You should watch the shows and then make up your mind. See why scientists studying the shroud have been both baffled and changed.

I don't want to have this thread closed, so let's keep it away from a religious discussion, although I know it's difficult

There is another head cloth called the Sudarium, which is in Spain. This piece of cloth has a longer history. It also fits well with the Shroud.

This is a religious discussion about Christianity. It is also an example of the systemic hypocrisy of this board and its so called rules about discussing religion and controversial non travel related issues.

 

[pjrose]

This is a religious discussion about Christianity. It is also an example of the systemic hypocrisy of this board and its so called rules about discussing religion and controversial non travel related issues.

I don't see it that way.....I think for the most part the discussion is about an object, how it may have been created, and whether people need to know, don't need to know, or wouldn't want to find out.

 

[jme]

I wonder about 'scientific evidence' that can't be reproduced, i'm pretty sure from what i remember from college, you can't have 'scientific evidence' without reproducible results

True, but does that even matter? Does the unrepeatable experiment render it invalid?

science vs non-science? sorta like the getting-older timesharing couple who look forward to the children scattered off at college finally getting together for a wonderful time together. A week of laughter, hugs, long walks and long talks...

Well, science got you there, but how do you explain all the rest? the priceless time together and all the emotions of those deep relationships, and....the looks in the grand-kids' eyes playing in the surf with GrandPa and GrandMa for the first time. (just a little example...there are others)

Science and non-science?.....

Life is a necessary combination of the two......and cannot be lived apart from the other----both are vital. And frankly, life cannot be explained entirely by just one---- experiences from each cannot, by definition, be explained by the other. They are mutually exclusive, and at the same time very dependent on each other. So, if you rid yourself of all that cannot be explained by science, you have a pretty vapid existence, devoid of all emotion and love.

There are "certain" things beyond repeatable experiments that are crucial to understanding the universe. Ignoring them will be your loss.

Again I say, Merry Christmas

 

[pgnewarkboy]

I don't see it that way.....I think for the most part the discussion is about an object, how it may have been created, and whether people need to know, don't need to know, or wouldn't want to find out.

The object is a religious object dealing specifically with Jesus Christ. Otherwise nobody would care. Acting as if this is not the case is ........acting.

 

[Ridewithme38]

The object is a religious object dealing specifically with Jesus Christ. Otherwise nobody would care. Acting as if this is not the case is ........acting.

It's just a sheet used to lay over any of thousands of people that were crucified...there is zero evidence that it was laid on any one specific man, or really that it was used for that....A corporation has taken advantage of the possible age of this item so they can further their cause and expand their 'product'....this has been this corporation's MO for a long time, adapting what it can't corrupt

(i am using the generic term corporation and product to keep this away from being a religious discussion)

 

[pgnewarkboy]

It's just a sheet used to lay over any of thousands of people that were crucified...there is zero evidence that it was laid on any one specific man, or really that it was used for that....A corporation has taken advantage of the possible age of this item so they can further their cause and expand their 'product'....this has been this corporation's MO for a long time, adapting what it can't corrupt

(i am using the generic term corporation and product to keep this away from being a religious discussion)

That is your opinion. Others say it contains the face of Jesus and is a miracle. That is why this discussion is both religious and controversial -in violation of the sometimes applied rules of this board. It would be nice if the rules were applied consistently instead of arbitrarily.