Schools reopening or not

[Luanne]

I just found out that the private schools in our area came up with their own plan for school openings. It appears they planned to open fully next month. That was until the district they sit in announced they would be 100% online when schools open. I don't know if this means private schools must comply with the local district, or if they're just taking another look.

 

[Ken555]

I haven’t been keeping current with this, or other, threads (which, fwiw, is actually quite refreshing).

The NYT has an article today about outdoor classes in the past. Has this been proposed for this year? If not, why not?

Schools Beat Earlier Plagues With Outdoor Classes. We Should, Too. (Published 2020)

A century ago, children in New York City attended classes during a pandemic. It seemed to work.

www.nytimes.com

Follow-up on my earlier post, today in California:

Gov. Gavin Newsom said Monday that hair salons and barbershops could offer services outdoors during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Need a trim? Newsom allows haircuts, salon services to resume outdoors amid coronavirus

California Gov. Gavin Newsom says salons and barbershops can offer personal cares services, as long as they do it outdoors.

www.latimes.com

Again, why can't we do this for schools?

 

[Brett]

Follow-up on my earlier post, today in California:

Need a trim? Newsom allows haircuts, salon services to resume outdoors amid coronavirus

California Gov. Gavin Newsom says salons and barbershops can offer personal cares services, as long as they do it outdoors.

www.latimes.com

Again, why can't we do this for schools?

probably could hold classes outside but it might get a little cold in the northern states

 

[Ken555]

probably could hold classes outside but it might get a little cold in the northern states

Read the NYT article. View the pictures. Are we so lazy these days that we can't do what was done over 100 years ago...and use a blanket and jacket?

ETA: we could even setup open tents to protect again snow, etc.

 

[bbodb1]

Again, why can't we do this for schools?

It's not that I am against the idea of outdoor learning (especially when it beats the alternative), but among the issues to address, these come to mind immediately:

• Physical space - there may not be all that many areas that are practical for outdoor teaching. Direct sun? The elements? The birds? The bugs? (Although science classes may be a lot more interesting...)
• Rest rooms? Moving kids back / forth to rest rooms..
• Keeping kids physically in check (i.e. not wandering off).
• Where / what to sit on? How to do written work...
• Essential communications within the school (office, nurse, etc)
• Students who leave class for services - how to get them to / from those services?

I like the idea you are suggesting here and my points are not meant to stop the idea, but there are definitely some things to consider (and I speak from an elementary school POV here). Middle school (and beyond) would have more security concerns I would think.

 

[Ken555]

It's not that I am against the idea of outdoor learning (especially when it beats the alternative), but among the issues to address, these come to mind immediately:

• Physical space - there may not be all that many areas that are practical for outdoor teaching. Direct sun? The elements? The birds? The bugs? (Although science classes may be a lot more interesting...)
• Rest rooms? Moving kids back / forth to rest rooms..
• Keeping kids physically in check (i.e. not wandering off).
• Where / what to sit on? How to do written work...
• Essential communications within the school (office, nurse, etc)
• Students who leave class for services - how to get them to / from those services?

I like the idea you are suggesting here and my points are not meant to stop the idea, but there are definitely some things to consider (and I speak from an elementary school POV here). Middle school (and beyond) would have more security concerns I would think.

Please read the NYT article. The pictures show how it was done over 100 years ago. I'm sure we can improve upon it.

I'm just surprised that after 200+ posts in this thread alone this suggestion wasn't mentioned. If so, I missed it. Why can't we think outside the box (literally, in this case)?

 

[geekette]

Read the NYT article. View the pictures. Are we so lazy these days that we can't do what was done over 100 years ago...and use a blanket and jacket?

ETA: we could even setup open tents to protect again snow, etc.

are we so lazy? yes, probably. Actually, I'd say we are "softer" than our ancestors. We are accustomed to Comfort.

I have to say that wearing jacket and blanket makes it hard to work. I can say that from office dwelling with AC below my tolerance. Once my hands are cold, I'm cold. putting on a fleece jacket, putting a blanket over my legs, seems like a solution, but does not remove distraction of actually being cold.

The reverse problem, too, of way too hot. Kids and teachers shouldn't have to risk heat stroke.

that said, I do hope there will be innovative outdoor solutions.

 

[Ken555]

are we so lazy? yes, probably. Actually, I'd say we are "softer" than our ancestors. We are accustomed to Comfort.

I have to say that wearing jacket and blanket makes it hard to work. I can say that from office dwelling with AC below my tolerance. Once my hands are cold, I'm cold. putting on a fleece jacket, putting a blanket over my legs, seems like a solution, but does not remove distraction of actually being cold.

The reverse problem, too, of way too hot. Kids and teachers shouldn't have to risk heat stroke.

that said, I do hope there will be innovative outdoor solutions.

These are all solvable issues. With all the noise and complaints about distance learning and closing of schools, I would have thought a reasonable solution like outdoor classes would be most welcome.


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[bbodb1]

Read the NYT article. View the pictures. Are we so lazy these days that we can't do what was done over 100 years ago...and use a blanket and jacket?

ETA: we could even setup open tents to protect again snow, etc.

Well, right off I can see they are using a ferry boat as a classroom. Not the worst idea, but I do not see any flotation devices on these kids.

Look, I don't want to sit here and just nit pick the idea to death. Outdoor learning certainly could work but look at the differences in education and safety requirements some 100 years later. Our schools need to be redesigned and rethought - I am in agreement with those thoughts.

The best way to see if this works would be to implement in somewhere - in small scale - first. Someone (well, some district) has to be the guinea pig here (so to speak). Ideally, it should be a school (or district) in the north 1/3 of the U.S. in order to avoid heat (although this point gets back to something that infuriates me about school in the south - namely we start way too early - mid August - right in the middle of the worst heat of the year).

 

[Ken555]

Well, right off I can see they are using a ferry boat as a classroom. Not the worst idea, but I do not see any flotation devices on these kids.

Really? That’s your comment about this *example* of what was down over 100 years ago?

Look, I don't want to sit here and just nit pick the idea to death.

Why should this thread be any different?

Outdoor learning certainly could work but look at the differences in education and safety requirements some 100 years later. Our schools need to be redesigned and rethought - I am in agreement with those thoughts.

The best way to see if this works would be to implement in somewhere - in small scale - first. Someone (well, some district) has to be the guinea pig here (so to speak). Ideally, it should be a school (or district) in the north 1/3 of the U.S. in order to avoid heat (although this point gets back to something that infuriates me about school in the south - namely we start way too early - mid August - right in the middle of the worst heat of the year).

Ok, good. So the CONCEPT is sound. You agree with it. Sure, there are issues to resolve. What is frustrating is that here we are months into this pandemic, it’s obvious that schools would be significantly impacted by this, and the decision by many is either to hope that one day the virus will magically disappear or that schools must be closed. There’s been almost no compromise, no innovative solution, nothing..that I’ve seen.

I’m certain beyond doubt that we can find solutions to the issues of holding classes outdoors. I had numerous classes outdoors, and they were great (of course we didn’t do much when it was snowing...but we could put up tents...). Naturally we have some constraints due to the current situation, some of which have been mentioned, but really... my point was not so much why we aren’t doing this but why we haven’t been discussing it.


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[Cornell]

I'm back in this discussion. My elation over our school district's plans has been taken away. The teacher union's backlash was swift & opposed. Here in IL , most of the announcements of the high school plans (hybrid or whatever) are now being walked back. I think it is VERY unlikely that our high schools will be open in Aug. The teachers unions are arguing that no in person learning is safe for them, no matter what protocols are put into place. It's extremely discouraging .

My hope is that if school is done virtually that the teachers have to do their instruction from their classrooms, and not their kitchen counters.

 

[Ken555]

My hope is that if school is done virtually that the teachers have to do their instruction from their classrooms, and not their kitchen counters.

Why?

If you can work from home, why can’t they?


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[Cornell]

@Ken555 Because last spring my kid would be in class with some of her teachers with their kids in the background, making appearances on video, etc. I think it's unprofessional and distracting.

I also think if the teacher is in the classroom it sets a certain tone for the student of "this is serious / we are in school".

 

[Ken555]

@Ken555 Because last spring my kid would be in class with some of her teachers with their kids in the background, making appearances on video, etc. I think it's unprofessional and distracting.

I also think if the teacher is in the classroom it sets a certain tone for the student of "this is serious / we are in school".

I interpret your comment as requesting that teachers be professional. I think that’s reasonable. That does not exclude their ability to performing their job from home just like many of us are doing these days.


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[geekette]

These are all solvable issues. With all the noise and complaints about distance learning and closing of schools, I would have thought a reasonable solution like outdoor classes would be most welcome.

Not crapping on your ideas. I don't have a horse in this race. Just feeling like if I didn't think it was something that I could do, I couldn't see kids being able to.

Solving temperature issues is likely getting right back to enclosed space. I just don't see herding kids into tents with inches of snow on the ground. There would need to be radiant heat or wet shoes would have cold wet feet all day. I don't know how practical the grids under a floor would be, especially if a temp structure. I'm not sure I'd want to use my laptop in a consistently humid space, either, another use of AC.

We get tornadoes here, you can't leave kids in a tent for those. Aside from driving rain entering the tent, it could blow away or collapse. Regardless, it is no protection from the elements. Which vary around the country. Consistently mild weather areas could pull it off far easier than those areas that have extreme temps or events.

 

[geekette]

Really? That’s your comment about this *example* of what was down over 100 years ago?



Why should this thread be any different?



Ok, good. So the CONCEPT is sound. You agree with it. Sure, there are issues to resolve. What is frustrating is that here we are months into this pandemic, it’s obvious that schools would be significantly impacted by this, and the decision by many is either to hope that one day the virus will magically disappear or that schools must be closed. There’s been almost no compromise, no innovative solution, nothing..that I’ve seen.

I’m certain beyond doubt that we can find solutions to the issues of holding classes outdoors. I had numerous classes outdoors, and they were great (of course we didn’t do much when it was snowing...but we could put up tents...). Naturally we have some constraints due to the current situation, some of which have been mentioned, but really... my point was not so much why we aren’t doing this but why we haven’t been discussing it.


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I think it has been discussed. Plenty. One of the problems is , where do the schools get the money to do any of this?

 

[Cornell]

I can assure you that the teachers would never agree to teaching outdoors.

 

[geekette]

I interpret your comment as requesting that teachers be professional. I think that’s reasonable. That does not exclude their ability to performing their job from home just like many of us are doing these days.


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Yeah. Agreed. Once you drag the teachers into buildings, you drag the others back in, too. there is no reason that they must be in the classroom.

We don't have ideal conditions, lack of professionalism is way down my list of big problems to solve.

 

[Ken555]

I think it has been discussed. Plenty. One of the problems is , where do the schools get the money to do any of this?

Really? Sorry, I haven’t seen those comments. But as it previously wrote, I haven’t read this entire thread.


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[Luanne]

I can assure you that the teachers would never agree to teaching outdoors.

I remember in college some professors holding classes outside. But that wasn't an every day thing.

It would be interesting to see how actual teachers would feel about teaching outdoors. There doesn't appear to be much, or any, information about that.

 

[Ken555]

Apparently Gov Newsom is open to the concept of outdoor classes.

Asked about adjusting school guidelines that might allow for outdoor classrooms, Newsom said he was open to considering that in counties that come off the state’s watch list.

California Coronavirus Update: Governor Gavin Newsom Relaxes Some Workplace Guidelines, Announces New Testing Method

California Governor Gavin Newsom said at his Monday press conference that the state was adjusting some of the workplace closure guidelines it issued last week, specifically those around hair salons and barbershops and the "personal care services industry." The governor said he had wanted to make...

www.yahoo.com

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[Ken555]

I remember in college some professors holding classes outside. But that wasn't an every day thing.

It would be interesting to see how actual teachers would feel about teaching outdoors. There doesn't appear to be much, or any, information about that.

Yup, my college also had some classes outdoors. And my high school. And my middle school...


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[geekette]

Really? Sorry, I haven’t seen those comments. But as it previously wrote, I haven’t read this entire thread.


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Oh, you're talking about Tug Board, vs what is happening in all of our communities. I haven't followed all the tug school stuff closely, but certainly some posters have revealed their local plans.

 

[geekette]

Yup, my college also had some classes outdoors. And my high school. And my middle school...


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Not here ever. It definitely depends on local conditions. Ours isn't suitable except some days of the year, which aren't known until they are imminent.

Perhaps there will be significant movement by a clever designer to accommodate the warm weather areas (the study pavillion!) but they would have to be extremely clever to deal with weather elsewhere.

 

[Chrispee]

My wife teaches grade 7 and when she returned to the classroom in June she went 100% outdoors. Her school is adjacent to a huge forest park with access to beaches as well so she was able to run a robust curriculum. We live in Vancouver, and our June weather is the definition of mild climate.

On the other hand I’m responsible for setting up summer programs at a school and quickly nixed the idea of running full outdoor programs. Just the mosquitos and sun exposure would have made it unfeasible. November through February, forget about it. Tents for 500-2000? May as well be inside. I guarantee most/all school boards considered this option and quickly ruled it out. Maybe California, New Mexico etc pondered it longer than others though?