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Recent Destination Club News

the point of nonrefundable is that you are ensuring members are committed. so highly unlikely they will stop paying dues anytime soon, but they can if they want.

You have to have an incredible level of confidence in the management team and home portfolio and business model to agree to this.

I think a equity club with the members having the right to replace the management firm is the best model.

Of course, for the clubs who promised refundability of the deposit, they haven't really delivered on that, so perhaps the members have been better off to treat it as non-refundable.
 
I think a equity club with the members having the right to replace the management firm is the best model.
can do that if nonrefundable. doesnt matter.

Of course, for the clubs who promised refundability of the deposit, they haven't really delivered on that, so perhaps the members have been better off to treat it as non-refundable.
exactly.

the whole point here is resigning is a problem. so remove it.

and investment vehicles are combining things. other route = simplify.

with ER's deferred plan, the only part that is 75% refundable is the part that you pay AFTER 10 years. so if you resign before that, you lose 100% of the first part. if people are doing this, IMHO that suggests nonrefundable is a workable model. it just becomes a question of target audience.
 
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Once you start co-joining a non sustainable concept, with probability, and maybe -- and toss in peoples cash flow, ie savings - you're creating an unspecific algebraic equation that likely pushes them towards nightly rentals, right? How is anyone, in this economy, with these dartboard prices on real estate supposed to make a quantitative decision on where to "join" or what to do? Isn't it easier then just to go to VRBO? Faced with lack or regulation (not that it would help) and the consistent failures in this industry - I again ask, would anyone (is anyone, really - verifiably) buying DC's? Not 1 or 2 year trials, but actually writing checks for full deposits. I say they're not - or the redemption lists would be much smaller...

As to the concept of "no refund" membership deposits - why do it? What do you gain? You add the limitations of restricted travel rules, and locations, and give up your cash? I don't see it. What am I missing? Just call the Ritz at that point and say "I want to go here." At least you get what you pay for, and lose the "wonder if I will get my money back" or "can't believe I paid for this" part of the equation.
 
access... discount... (and exchange-free...)

mentioned earlier >
- quintess - raffles canouan ($16,200) la samanna ($9,720) amangani ($5,568)
- banyan tree private collection - banyan tree seychelles ($5,200)

also >
- ER - little dix ($4,680+) arabelle vail ($4,540+)

Q has 5BR at amangani, hotel only has 4BR in inventory

ER also previously had this 3BR at FS costa rica (now up to $19,065) and similar 4BR as well
(before this one was added to hotel inventory) http://www.fourseasons.com/costarica/guest_rooms_and_suites/casa_de_la_luna_residence_estate.html

also re ER >

at sea island and ritz carlton grand cayman, ER owns hotel-managed 4BR pool villas. the hotels have no pool villas in inventory. nor do there exist hotel-managed pool villa residences. (if there were, you might be able to rent privately, depending on minimum lease.)

at ritz carlton ft lauderdale, ER owns all 8 3BR condohotel units. (XX02, XX03, XX08, XX09 on 15th/16th floors) 1603 is the best condohotel unit (in the building) with a very large terrace. the condo residences have a 1 year minimum lease.

at trump chicago, ER owns 7 out of 10 xx00 units (floors 18>27) (the larger/nicer of the 2 2BR floorplans, which can connect to a 3rd BR [xx04].) (the other 2BR floorplan is laid out like its a 1BR + studio, even though it isnt, and doesnt connect to a 3rd BR.) ill have to check residence min lease sometime.

they also own 4 2BRs on the world. the world requires 6 nt min for bookings. ER doesnt. and ive only seen 1 private rental. (OTOH while cheaper, ER and the private rental are not all-inclusive.)

re ER once in a lifetime - the seabourn charters would be great for a demographic change to one unlike any luxury all-inclusive cruiseline, and at one point they offered top hotel(s) on st barts. IF they were available over NYE, that is something that is not normally bookable - they are sold out to regular guests more than a year in advance.
potentially the most interesting "hybrid" - belvedere @ karma kandara >
DC-style use + rental income from owned hotel condo/villa + possible quintess exchange
lose the "wonder if I will get my money back" or "can't believe I paid for this" part of the equation.

doesnt get simpler than making it nonrefundable
 
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doesnt get simpler than making it nonrefundable

Maybe not...unless you're trying to actually sell members on this. So you would join a "non refundable" destination club? That's certainly a crapshoot to think it could even be conceived, isn't it? You've got some 5-6000 folks out there in DCs looking for their (eventual) refunds, and to go to market with one that says there is none isn't exactly a value proposition.

Would love to see a proposal.
 
In real life-there are no refunds on real estate. You take capital risk. Our expecting there to be a bid down 25% forever to take us out was psychotic thinking on all of our parts.

RCDC is just selling the ability to use unsold timeshares on their resorts. Wow! Wonder what the resale on those "Portfolio Memberships" looks like. The handful of folks that have teed that up, please chime in! I see timeshare resales going off down 60-90% in some cases. Recall a fellow on DC4MS trying to gin up a bid on his membership way down in the hole, and no takers. (Biggest issue is that if you buy on the secondary market, they really limit your ability to utilize other RC properties-just like Marriott Vacation Club purchases in the secondary market.)

ER will either make it, or not over the next five years. I hope they make it. If they do make it, the 10 year deferral will be an ok deal. If they don't, it won't be. To be clear, it is $175K upfront, plus any Holiday fees upfront $99K, and $175 in 10 years. So you're putting up $274K non-refundable right now if you want holidays and 40 days and still have to come up with another $175K if they make it in 2020.

Tip my hat to debt free A&K-just wonder how they'll move forward given their small size and the overhead that was built for materially more sales. I can hear the chant coming from Fortress, "We're #4 in members, we're #4 members..."

Don't know what is going on at Quintess-Are they still offering to defer half of the upfront for 5 years? Have seen the lawsuits from the two Hawaii developers-waiting to read their responses. One is titled Moku Kauhale LLC Vs Monogram Real Estate LLC. (Monogram was the LLC formed by Quintess on this transaction.)

Consolidation in the industry would be great as long as it doesn't involve another Lusso like event. If you put several of the survivors together-squeeze overhead and marketing expenses, better utilize the home. You might have a model that can work. Might......
 
I don't see a non-refundable offer flying, either.

I had narrowed down my choices to Lusso and Private Escapes because they were the two that I liked offering unlimited usage and 100% (or more) deposit refunds. In retrospect, it probably shouldn't have been my criteria since Lusso proved too good to be true and PE wasn't doing so well by the time it finally sealed the deal with UR. However, I objected to partial refunds then and I obviously wouldn't even consider one where it would be 100% non-refundable. The initial deposit would have to be really low to woo members making that kind of blind committment -- and it would probably be too low to buy properties.

DCs work when real estate prices are climbing. It clearly doesn't when they're not. When prices were inching higher through 2007 club backers didn't mind taking a hit on operating costs exceeding dues because they coudl make it up in property appreciation. The low dues attracted vacation buffs with the means to afford the initial deposits. This scenario -- on a more sober level -- may play itself out when luxury real estate prices recover. So I don't think you'd ever see a non-refundable model.
 
the guy on DC4MS was trying (desperately) to sell RC jupiter fractional.

AK is debt free but has 5% debt cap.
more re ER (all nonrefundable) >
- late 2006 - ultra upgrade $195K
- late 2007 - supplemental 10 days $99K / $159K
- early 2008 - holiday tokens $40K / $60K > $49K / $79K > $49K / $99K (increased quickly)
- late 2009? - deferred where your entire first half is nonrefundable $120K > $250K
re number of holidays - 3 peak & 3 select
 
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I understand that AKRC is "debt free" (I understand that AK is just carrying and covering their losses) and that the club is an "equity model" and the "homes are owned free and clear. But doesn't that just really mean that Fortress wrote a check for the homes and took an additional equity interest in AK global? True, it might not effect the club entirely, but someone, somewhere wrote checks for BH and Crescendo - those dollars have to be accounted for somewhere, right?

One would surmise, since AK itself is really just a travel planning business, that Fortress (or whomever paid for the clubs) wanted collateral on the monies, right? Wouldn't the simplest, and safest place to secure that "note" be against those homes - whether listed publicly with the members knowledge, or not?

Someone from AK please tell me how that purchase worked, if you can.
 
DCs work when real estate prices are climbing. When prices were inching higher through 2007 club backers didn't mind taking a hit on operating costs exceeding dues because they coudl make it up in property appreciation.


In theory one would think this, but I disagree. I base this on the facts, documented facts, from the TH bankruptcy. It was proven that had the "then model" actually been followed, ie buying a home for every 6 that join, taking members out on a 3-1, etc. that they still would have failed. True, dues are a component of the process, but if they're unaffordable, no one will join. The alternate bidder to UR had a different concept in mind, which likely would have worked (meaning "cash flowed") but the dues needed to be in the range then where ERs are now. The fact remains, UE dues are too low. Some members pay less than they even did at TH. To the appreciation side, that was a neat sales gimmick, but also unsustainable, even if prices had risen. As prices rise, so do the taxes and carry costs. And, if people leave, the "model" would dictate that you could alleviate inventory by selling it. So, you pay say 2.5MM in XXX year for a home that becomes worth say 4MM. In theory, you've made money, but only if you sell it. If you do, you lose availability. Say you do sell it, and go to replace it - say you even sell it for 5.0MM. You should be able to then replace with two 2.5's, right? Wrong. You won't find a couple "suitable" (to member standards) homes for 2.5MM each in the same place, or lets say not as close to the beach, mountain or whatever. So to "realize" that appreciation and then reinvest it almost becomes an impossibility. As a member, would you want them to dump a home that you love for 2 crappier homes, likely further away from the activities or main attraction? Now, say you're an equity club - as a member, YOU own the ups's, right? What would you do with it then, apply it to reduced opco costs? Distribute back to original investors? Are the investors unique to the specific properties (like Everlands attempted)? So the original members of AK, as an example, own their 18 homes worth XX. They appreciate to YY over say 5 years. Do the late joining members get the same percentage of equity as those who rode it out over time? In theory, the later joiners paid more, so they should also realize something, right?

Bottom line, unsustainable no matter how you look at it, IMHO, and further, unlikely to get traction as a "no refund." Anything built on ongoing sales is going to pop when the sales bubble busts. I don't think that is specific to just this industry. Just in most, you might lose sales and margins drop, but your initial capital isn't also carried as a forward going liability on the balance sheet. Now you have no cash flow, increased costs and large debt. When sales slump, people want out. 3-1 doesn't work, and as the market has proven, shedding assets doesn't always either (especially if you're in reality short on them anyway and subsidizing availability with rentals or hotel collections) because they're not quick sales, the prices are too inconsistent and as an example, in the case if UR, would only go towards reducing the secured debt balance, not towards refund of membership deposits.
 
There are a number of models that are sustainable IMHO, which are only marginally dependent on sales (i.e., sales are not required to fund operations, but only required to fund sales and some level of desired profit). However, they seem to be limited to the smaller clubs. The bigger clubs have made great strides in increasing the dues levels to make them more sustainable, but that also has a tendency to really cut new sales (and encourage existing members to resign). Also, the debt load of the larger clubs is going to make it really hard to compete. You need to charge higher dues to pay for the debt, but then again who is going to come in and pay higher dues to support the existing debt? Definitely some issues there. However, maybe they've got the portfolio and member referral base to offset the debt disadvantage.

A couple of thoughts about specific points:

If the 250M loss by ER op. co. is correct, that surely includes massive depreciation (not cash losses) right?

On A&K member sales, I clearly stated in the sales numbers that they were vastly tilted towards the trial memberships (particuarly last year), which, of course, wouldn't result in additional homes being purchased. To the extent equity sales were made, it went to pay out resigning members (remember they went 1 in: 1 out).

A&K IMHO went too big early on with the DC. Maybe it would have worked for good times, but definitely not given the economic situation. While they've kept the front line member facing folks, they've made very significant overhead reductions on management, marketing, sales, back office, villa leasing, etc. We'll know for sure the impact of that in the next month or two when we get the financials, but my impression is it's pretty significant, with the stated goal of breaking even for 2010. The good thing about the model from the perspective of a member is that the members didn't incur debt for the start-up costs or any shortfalls.

IMHO, that's the way a start-up ought to be funded, rather than on the backs of members without the members really knowing. If you look at what happened with the non-equity DCs, either real estate got loaded up with debt to pay the start up costs and operational shortfalls and/or less money from new members went into real estate, with more debt resulting. A&K instead picked up these costs.

However, if you're looking for a negative way to look at it, I guess you could say that they perhaps invested more (e.g., bought the CR and BH management companies and bought additional houses to beef up the portfolio) and that they are going to expect higher sales in order to want to stick with it long term. But no matter what, I am 100% sure that the members own the houses that they have purchased debt free and that A&K nor Fortress has any collateral interest in those houses. They can't collaterize assets that they don't own. The operative documents cannot be any more clear. A&K cannot be any more clear when they list out the houses that are owned solely by the members, and the ones that they own.
 
http://investor.shareholder.com/com...F4163D99&filename=Final_FY_2009_Form_10-K.pdf
In 2009, we established a special purpose entity to maintain ownership of real estate for sale of a Portfolio membership in The Ritz-Carlton Destination Club (“RCDC Club”). Although we have no equity ownership in the...RCDC Clubs themselves, we absorb the variability in the assets of the...RCDC Clubs to the extent that inventory has not been sold to the ultimate...RCDC Club member...RCDC Clubs are variable interest entities because the equity investment at risk is not sufficient to permit the entities to finance their activities without additional support from other parties. We determined that we were the primary beneficiary of these entities based upon the proportion of variability that we absorb compared to...RCDC Club members...At year-end 2009, the carrying amount of inventory associated with the RCDC Club was $13 million, all of which resulted from the consolidation of the special purpose entity. The creditors of these entities do not have general recourse to our credit.

Anyone know what the RCDC info. from the 10-K quoted by Kage means?

It sounds like they don't own the properties in the member's entity. They are trying to use unsold inventory, and they've got price risk on their hands until the properties are sold to the ultimate member. Anyone have a different take?
 
re everlands, they actually had members directly purchase the point resort. cant seem to find the details.

re AK, werent the 2 trials because of excess inventory? and then the discount to decrease the excess inventory?

actually re RC DC, i edited out references to the asian TS (it always said both at the same time) to make it clearer, but thinking about it, isnt it kind of odd to be talking about the asian TS and the RC DC at the same time?

it was in the Q3 report that confirmed they were using unsold fractional inventory. >
The company will sell a portion of its fractional inventory as part of the new portfolio membership program in Ritz-Carlton Destination Club ("RCDC").

exchange on DC4MS >
Portfolio Members will OWN a beneficial interest in a "Florida Land Trust" that owns the actual properties. There is no expiration date as this is a deeded interest.

When I asked about availability and how many properties are actually owned by the trust, that information was not available. However, the club will never sell more than 80% usage nights (points) per property.

Also, the club will allow members to stay in developer owned properties that have not been sold (i.e. the fractional units) if there is a high demand at a specific property during a specific date.

TarheelTraveler said:
Very odd legal structure. I've not ever seen a trust concept combined with deeds for those with an interest in the trust. Maybe this is common in Florida. Does RC have part ownership or a beneficial interest in the trust? Can owners of a portfolio membership be assessed?

perhaps there is a connection to banyan tree private collection model here? terms like "asset-backed" etc?
 
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My Look at RCDC....

It strikes me that their "trust" is akin to a closed end mutual fund/or Limited Partnership that does not trade ever, wherein they receive the proceeds of new share issuance and receive the ongoing management fees, and are the sole provider of any new assets going into the fund at a price that is profitable to them. Sounds great, for them!

Think the 10-K makes it clear that Marriott get all the ups there.

RCDC Clubs are variable interest entities because the equity investment at risk is not sufficient to permit the entities to finance their activities without additional support from other parties. We determined that we were the primary beneficiary of these entities based upon the proportion of variability that we absorb compared to...RCDC Club members...At year-end 2009, the carrying amount of inventory associated with the RCDC Club was $13 million, all of which resulted from the consolidation of the special purpose entity. The creditors of these entities do not have general recourse to our credit.
 
Don't know what is going on at Quintess-Are they still offering to defer half of the upfront for 5 years? Have seen the lawsuits from the two Hawaii developers-waiting to read their responses. One is titled Moku Kauhale LLC Vs Monogram Real Estate LLC. (Monogram was the LLC formed by Quintess on this transaction.)

Quintess Jerry Fuller vs. Quintess Lawsuit
claims Q owes >
$1,078,000 ($44,000 per month * 24.5 months) (jul 15 2008 > jul 31 2010)
$53,000+ late fee
$225,000+ interest
$20,000+ utilities/etc
$2,240,000 damages

Quintess Complaint - Moku Kauhale LLC vs. Quintess
claims Q has not paid anything, has not released money in escrow, stole $300K worth of furnishings, and did not pay for $300K worth of damages caused by members.

:eek:

thanks TarheelTraveler for sending me the docs.

ah, previously >
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=867902&postcount=13
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=868177&postcount=14
 
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I understand that AKRC is "debt free" (I understand that AK is just carrying and covering their losses) and that the club is an "equity model" and the "homes are owned free and clear. But doesn't that just really mean that Fortress wrote a check for the homes and took an additional equity interest in AK global? True, it might not effect the club entirely, but someone, somewhere wrote checks for BH and Crescendo - those dollars have to be accounted for somewhere, right?

One would surmise, since AK itself is really just a travel planning business, that Fortress (or whomever paid for the clubs) wanted collateral on the monies, right? Wouldn't the simplest, and safest place to secure that "note" be against those homes - whether listed publicly with the members knowledge, or not?

Someone from AK please tell me how that purchase worked, if you can.


I can basically guarantee that the homes are free and clear. The only way they wouldn't be is if there was fraud. The docs are clear, the docs don't allow the club to borrow more than 5% of assets. Every piece of documentation supports what Myself and Tarheel are saying. So, unless it's a big scam (it's not), there is no debt on the homes. PERIORD. END OF STORY. Please stop saying otherwise, unless you have some proof to the contrary.
 
Even More Litigation News!

In the Norring Vs UE/PE lawsuit, UE prevailed on getting most of the suit tossed. Not over-but a win for UE for the most part.

Read the Cervantes/Priest Vs ER lawsuit today-it is being done Pro Se by the member. Appears she is a lawyer by training as is her spouse-who actually has a pretty nifty resume/credentials. They appear to be one of the first joiners on ER ($295K & $18K a year in dues for 60 nights). They're crying foul over their dues going up to the $995 a night level over the next couple of years.
 
In the Norring Vs UE/PE lawsuit, UE prevailed on getting most of the suit tossed. Not over-but a win for UE for the most part.
declaratory judgement was not dismissed though
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=881607&postcount=9
Read the Cervantes/Priest Vs ER lawsuit today-it is being done Pro Se by the member. Appears she is a lawyer by training as is her spouse-who actually has a pretty nifty resume/credentials. They appear to be one of the first joiners on ER ($295K & $18K a year in dues for 60 nights). They're crying foul over their dues going up to the $995 a night level over the next couple of years.
how did it read? if theyre amazing lawyers, sure will be interesting. surprised it took this long for this kind of situation, considering net worth stats ER and Q toss around.

aha, from another ER member >
most members had written clauses that locked in their dues rates for 10 years. These clauses were an essential reason that they joined. Exclusive has repudiated these dues clauses, claiming that they can change anything in the contracts in their discretion and/or with the consent of a “member steering committee” that is controlled by management.
 
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I don't know anything about Luxus.

I can't understand what the economic incentive / ie value proposition would be to a "no refund" club membership? Why would someone join?
 
I don't know anything about Luxus.
>
luxus vacation properties = only owned homes with no debt and point system
it is literally not possible to be any more conservative.
again luxus is ONLY no-debt owned properties.
...
I can't understand what the economic incentive / ie value proposition would be to a "no refund" club membership? Why would someone join?
>
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=880648&postcount=129

and
In real life-there are no refunds on real estate.

and ER is already successful obtaining huge nonrefundable amounts
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=880742&postcount=133

(not to mention UE - assessment, stock sales, dues advances, extra dues)
 
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I can basically guarantee that the homes are free and clear. The only way they wouldn't be is if there was fraud. The docs are clear, the docs don't allow the club to borrow more than 5% of assets. Every piece of documentation supports what Myself and Tarheel are saying. So, unless it's a big scam (it's not), there is no debt on the homes. PERIORD. END OF STORY. Please stop saying otherwise, unless you have some proof to the contrary.


You saying that you personally can guarantee something isn't really at question here, but nor is it a guarantee. Fraud wouldn't be such a far jump in this industry. Both McGrath and JT changed and manipulated their club docs on a whim. Not saying AK did that, but you can't say it won't, doesn't, or hasn't happened.

Instead, since you are obviously passionate about your club and it's structure, why don't you answer what I asked someone on the inside to do - how were the monies paid to acquire BH and Crescendo accounted for? Who wrote that check (presumably NOT AK out of their funds), was it Fortress? And if so, did they just take an ever larger equity stake in AK? So while the homes might not have any listed debt themselves, does the opco? Does AK? Without getting defensive, can you just please explain the transaction?
 
>


...

>
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=880648&postcount=129

and


and ER is already successful obtaining huge nonrefundable amounts
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=880742&postcount=133

(not to mention UE - assessment, stock sales, dues advances, extra dues)

Kage - I guess when you infer that a non-refundable club model might work, I think that you actually mean a non-refund of the membership deposit. I don't equate a holiday usage rider (like ERs) or a mandatory assessment (like UEs) to a "model" itself. I equate those dollars being charged as a supplement to a model that in fact doesn't work. To me, stating what people did in 06 or 07 when the club industry still had some signs of a pulse is different than one entering the business with a hybrid plan that would say "pay this, and you won't get it back." In the prior scenarios you've referenced, IMO, you're equating "must pays" to keep traveling, i.e., I'm already a member say of ER, I've paid my $300k (example), I can't get the travel dates / holidays I want, I can't redeem (the list is too long) and I've already lost my 20-25% based on my membership -- the place looks like it will be open for a while, so why not pay $90k, etc. to get the dates I want?

UE's assessment was similar. Members were already invested, had trips on the books, the company gave them two choices - pay or we go into liquidation.

Those, to me, are entirely different scenarios than someone new coming out of the box. At that point, why hand someone else your cash for travel when you could just keep your cash and travel when you wanted too. As this forum eludes too, there are many options are there.

Again, not saying it couldn't work - just don't see a financial model supporting that. Past history of certain events doesn't mean something works. It merely means there was little other choice, right?
 
Kage - I guess when you infer that a non-refundable club model might work, I think that you actually mean a non-refund of the membership deposit.
so there are things besides the deposit that are refundable? please enlighten me.

yes i should not have mentioned UE.

ignoring ER holiday tokens leaves 3 other things that your argument doesnt apply to.

more re ER (all nonrefundable) >
- late 2006 - ultra upgrade $195K
- late 2007 - supplemental 10 days $99K / $159K
- early 2008 - holiday tokens $40K / $60K > $49K / $79K > $49K / $99K (increased quickly)
- late 2009? - deferred where your entire first half is nonrefundable $120K > $250K

they stopped doing ultra plan so there must have been some takers.

no idea re supplemental days.

anonymous ER member >
25% of Exclusive Resorts new memberships sold this year was with the deferred deposit plan.
 
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You saying that you personally can guarantee something isn't really at question here, but nor is it a guarantee. Fraud wouldn't be such a far jump in this industry. Both McGrath and JT changed and manipulated their club docs on a whim. Not saying AK did that, but you can't say it won't, doesn't, or hasn't happened.

Couldn't we say the same thing about every investment? There could always be some elaborate fraud that was not picked up on by other employees, the auditors, the analysts, etc. Nonetheless, saying it over and over again without any basis gets old. Particularly when it would be harder to do than most frauds committed in some back office of a company.

Here is the reality:
1. The operative documents don't allow it to be collaterized and the club documents cannot be changed in that regard (much more member protective documents IMO as compared to UE and T&H).

2. A&K plainly states it over and over again.

3. The auditor's (KPMG) audited financials say the same thing.

4. I've taken the time before to check some of the real estate records.

5. What idiot lawyer would let them collateralize something they don't own (would be obvious malpractice)?

6. What idiot judge (not trying to get overturned) would actually allow that to be effective, essentially allowing massive frauds of people collateralizing assets that they don't own?

7. I feel a lot more comfortable that the stated reality matches reality when you are dealing with major companies like RC and A&K, as compared to what PerryM says are companies started out of someone's basement.

Instead, since you are obviously passionate about your club and it's structure, why don't you answer what I asked someone on the inside to do - how were the monies paid to acquire BH and Crescendo accounted for? Who wrote that check (presumably NOT AK out of their funds), was it Fortress? And if so, did they just take an ever larger equity stake in AK? So while the homes might not have any listed debt themselves, does the opco? Does AK? Without getting defensive, can you just please explain the transaction?

Who do you mean by "asked someone on the inside to do?" You asked someone at A&K? I hope you're not implying anyone on this board, because you'd be flat out wrong (I actually wish someone from A&K corp. would post on these boards just to put a kibosh on stupid threads like this). Accordingly, I don't think any member is going to be able to tell you the details of the underlying transaction. We probably have 300-400 pages of transaction literature, and I'm a huge DC geek, but I couldn't tell you. A&K bought the BH and CR management companies, and they own the A&K DC management company. The member equity in the houses were transferred over to the new member entity. CR members paid in money/incurred debt individually to pay off any mortgages and debt on the houses. I frankly don't care if A&K or Fortress put up their own money or incurred debt to do the purchase. They own the management company and I don't. The only bearing it has on me is I'm sure they will want to sell memberships to get a return on their investment, but is that really any different than any other DC, whether it's RC, ER, or whomever? At least if that return is not sufficient, I'll be in a vastly better position than in a non-equity DC scenario.

I'm frankly confused about the line of reasoning. You argue for more regulation and protection of members. Yet, when people actually come out with DCs, where the actual dirt is owned by the members, you seem to hate it too. Isn't that structure fundamentally more protective of members than most non-equity clubs where someone else owns the real estate, can leverage the real estate with no governor, can pay themselves what they want, and your interest is governed by a contract that can in many cases be unilaterally amended by club management?
 
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5. What idiot lawyer would let them collateralize something they don't own (would be obvious malpractice)?

6. What idiot judge (not trying to get overturned) would actually allow that to be effective, essentially allowing massive frauds of people collateralizing assets that they don't own?
hmm...
Who do you mean by "asked someone on the inside to do?"
i think they meant they posted here asking for the answer from AK member.
 
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