Recent Destination Club News

[Kagehitokiri2]

mispostedxxxx

 

[AKTHUE]

Online Availability on HomeAway, VRBO

availability search was always possible on homeaway, and after they bought VRBO/others, they have added it to at least VRBO so far.

I guess I have not tried VRBO since you say HomeAway bought them. But I remember trying to use HomeAway last fall, using the online availability search, then emailing the owners, and finding several of them were not available for the dates that I had searched. They told me they have multiple sources for bookings and don't always keep the calendar up to date.

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

certainly a good point. still relying on those calendars. and sometimes the "last updated" is WAY back.

 

[Floridaski]

defintion of "professional property management"

When renting a VRBO rental I often ask about a professional property management. Sometimes this may be the resort - ie if you are renting a Slope side condo in Keystone, Colorado the property management may by Keystone Resorts - cannot get anymore professional then that. Many buildings have an on-site manger, again this helps with any vacation worries.

Another type of professional property manager might be a local company. These companies are general rated by trip adviser and the reviewers on trip adviser are ruthless. The company has to a good job to get 3 or 4 stars. Our current property management company has an on-site office, 24 hour service and has 119 reviews on trip adviser.

I also ask everyone who checks in - how was your experience. I am paying our manager for service on the VRBO guests - this cuts my profit, but I have always heard good things.

There are also property managers that run out of a lock box in a shopping center, they may not even have an employee in the area, use contract house cleaning as opposed to employees. I would not rent a VRBO unit if any of these things were present - you just have to ask the questions. Many times if the price is to good to be true - they are cutting corners somewhere.

You just cannot rent a large ski in - ski out condo or a Hawaii beach front condo for a couple hundred dollars. They cost a significant amount to purchase, to maintain and they are expensive to keep up to a Gold or Platinum level.

I get people all the time wanting to rent our condo on VRBO for half of what I am asking. My VRBO rates are 50% less then the best sale of resort rates - they get mad at me. They are offering what I pay at the Hampton Inn - it is all I can do to not give them the Holiday Inn phone number.

Anyway, VRBO is an option for any DC club member. You can get that high end unit without the huge cash outlay.

From our Keystone unit, I can see the High Country Club unit that is going to auction next week. This unit will sell for close to what they club paid for it, but some properties may not.

 

[TarheelTraveler]

These are all good suggestions, which I'll definitely use when I go outside of the DC for travel. To me it all boils down to how much you want to work the system, how much risk you're willing to take in booking the vacation, and how much risk you have with your current DC or how much risk you would have in joining a DC. All of those shape the perspectives that you see on here.

For me, I'm in an equity DC with no debt and a good backer, so there's definitely less risk there than other DCs. Furthermore, I've got limited time, we've got pretty high service and quality expectations and given my personality to run things out to the nth degree, I know that I would spend more time planning a trip than being on the trip, so my DC is perfect for me. For example, I recently spent more time booking a 3 day weekend trip to Florida than I did booking 5 weeks of DC travel, and the result was not anywhere as good, with service that was pretty disappointing.

However, at the same time, I can appreciate the perspectives on here that say I know how to game the timeshare system, find the best VRBO places, my DC is going to hell, the DC industry is going to hell, I've been burned by a DC and I want the DC industry to go to hell, or whatever. However, I do wish that some would have an open enough mind to really look at the various clubs and give one of those trial offers from a reputable DC a try before they pronounce every DC a waste of money run by a bunch of crooks.

DCs have sky high satisfaction rates from an experience standpoint that not even the best travel providers can match. I've always thought that the DC concept really is ingenious and eliminates the unknowns of whether you'll have a great vacation. Now if they can just eliminate the financial risk, they'll be set.

One side comment is that we've got a crazy upside down economy right now with economics that cannot last forever. People who own these second homes are desperate for any kind of cash, but again that's not always going to be the case. People tend to compare the present options (particularly from a pricing standpoint) and assume that it will be the case in a few years.

 

[wilkes591]

How are you guys?

Tarheal,

You are right about UE, it is not going for the middle of the road. Something is up, the secondary did not work and it is delisted currently. I wish I could talk to some of the other UE members, however with DC4M down I can not put the pieces of the puzzle together. We will see what rabbit JT pulls out of the hat in 2010.

You are 100% right about the DC Vacation Experience, it is excellent. I sure hope the economics turn around for all clubs.

Regards

 

[TarheelTraveler]

It's good to see DC4MS members like Wilkes, travelguy, Kage and others posting over here. I don't think there's that critical number of posters yet to match the dialogue over at DC4MS, but it is nice to have this fix and help close the DC information gap since DC4MS went down.

Anyone know when the UE Q4 financials come out? Should be informative.

 

[AKTHUE]

UE Financials

Anyone know when the UE Q4 financials come out? Should be informative.

Shouldn't they be out already?

The real trick will be to see if it possible to separate out from the resported financials, which use accrual accounting, the effects of the special one-time assessment, the costs and cash of the Secure America merger, and the non-paying members. Remember, they reinstated all the suspended members, and then invoiced them for dues. Once they invoiced them, they may be counting it as revenue even if the suspended members have no intention of being active dues-paying members. They may not need to disclose this until their Q1 financials, but if there is a bump in accounts receivable it may be possible to make some estimates. UE's financials are confusing enough and have enough one-time events to make analysis difficult.

 

[UnhappyInCT]

I think as a small company they have 90 days after year end to submit their 10K

 

[wilkes591]

The Cash Flow Statement will say it all!

I would not concern myself with Income Statement. I want to see the Cash on hand and the cash burn. I think JT thought the economy would turn around by now and might have placed some bets to that effect. It looks to me like UE is looking for cash again and with the secondary failing there is only one place to go.

 

[TarheelTraveler]

You are 100% right about the DC Vacation Experience, it is excellent.

Interesting article on a survey about timeshares:

http://www.realestatechannel.com/us...hare-survey-redweekcom-randy-conrads-2108.php

Anyone know if those results are typical?

It's interesting to see that DCs have vastly better satisfaction scores. ER, A&K and other clubs have >90% scores. However, as I mentioned earlier, the bane of DCs has been on the financial side. We've still got a few landmines out there in DC world, but I do think there are now a couple of clubs that are either in good shape or have made tremendous financial strides.

Another area that has seen marked improvement is on Club transparency. Just two or three years ago, there were probably only one or two clubs that provided audited financials, and now most do. Of course, now it's clear why those clubs weren't providing financials. Exclusive Resorts was one of the last holdouts, but I'm pretty sure they've caved on that now and will provide financials.

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

the problem(s) are exchanges, and for most ski fractionals the amount of ski usage.

for higher end fractionals that dont advertise exchange options, and ski fractionals that allow unlimited space available use, the satisfaction levels are probably higher.

higher end will also generally have higher satisfaction.

and with (most?) DCs you can resign.

 

[TarheelTraveler]

A lot of it is availability. Seems like I remember seeing a fractional study, and the satisfaction rates were higher than timeshares, but lower than DCs. But I think certain higher end fractionals have had higher levels of satisfaction than the average fractional.

 

[SciFrog]

H A P P Y

Just back from Vail, amazing home, to extend our stay we had to pay almost $3k a night to a nice but nowhere near the quality of the house, although better location with small kids...

Anyone with good insight on very high end timeshares/fractional in Vail, please raise your hand! We love Vail!

DCF has been down for too long, this is strange at best...

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

moving from Q property to rental?

http://quintess.com/vail 4K and 6K ft2 4BR. what development is that? love the design.

four seasons vail opens this summer, unfortunately fractionals arent amazing like top residence
(only montage deer valley's top residence compares, along with top suite @ les airelles in courchevel) (ski hotel units)

http://www.solarisvail.com/ looks amazing, but not sure epiphany is still doing 19 fractionals... and again, they werent going to be the top units. epiphany's site is down. (http://villasattristant.com/ was epiphany's first fractional, in telluride)

btw - what is avail looking like for raffles canouan and la samanna?

 

[SciFrog]

Stayed in the big house in Vail, amazing, right on the creek, close to the slopes but not real ski In/out. They are on forest rd, just two adjacent homes.

Going to Canouan next month, la Samanna is booked solid even next year.

I will have to rethink my whole holiday scheme when my kids will be in higher grades. If we decide to go to Vail every year during a holiday period, no DC or rentals/VRBO will help us. We stayed in a 4br at the Arrabelle, we were shocked how cheap some details were for a place on sale for a cool $5.8mio...

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

maybe put in a "request" to a custom fractional company for a holiday week plus, in a really expensive property?

did you check what arabelle/rockresorts was charging for game creek chalet?

 

[3DH]

It's good to see DC4MS members like Wilkes, travelguy, Kage and others posting over here. I don't think there's that critical number of posters yet to match the dialogue over at DC4MS, but it is nice to have this fix and help close the DC information gap since DC4MS went down.

...agreed! Count me in on the posters/lurkers here!

 

[SciFrog]

Game Creek is too far with small kids...
Arrabelle, 4 Seasons, Solaris are close. Ritz is too far, Lodge at Vail needs a total overall.

One strange thing about Vail, kids ski school is only in Lionshead and Golden Peak, not in the village...

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

http://www.thehideawaysclub.com/

International Destination Club of the Year 2009
- Destination Club News News

http://destinationclubnews.com/News_The_Hideaways_Club_Confirms_Price_Increase.php

The Hideaways Club now has over 130 Members

 

[ClubsRDead]

It's uncanny how many of the DC4MS folks moved over here. As with the prior forum, nothing gets nor can be resolved here.

Does anyone still really believe this is a viable product, in a viable economy? Let's face the realities:

ER - has reportedly somewhere between 5-800 members on the resignation list. No surprise. Case pumps $30MM into a billion dollar hole, what does that solve? The OpCo lost over $200MM last year, and they've set their pricing now to where there is NO reason whatsoever to join. With dues giving an ADR of approx $1000/day, why would anyone pay a deposit (that they would lose 25% of, assuming one could actually be redeemed if they wanted out) when you can rent almost anywhere for $1k / night?

UR - a comment on here states that the AK lawsuit is the black eye of the industry. True, and false. That suit (which is a bunch of individual one's now, it is no longer a "Class" action - will be the show stopper, but even moreso when JT and Co file. How is he still alive? He's failed in private and public offerings. He promised redemptions to TH members he can't honor, and let's face it, the homes are mostly crap. The worst homes at TH became Jim's best, but with 3x the debt load. All the offices he maintains, why? They are (like everyone) selling nothing.

AK - Equity Club? You think? Well Intrawest was carrying all their debt and now they're in a restructuring, and close to a possible filing. AK has no assets to speak of, and their burn rate is incredibly high, in addition to not selling any memberships. So between the lawsuit and Intrawest's overlapping financial and legal issues, there is NO WAY that AK can grow the club, much less stay open.

Quintess, and others -- who cares.

All the dinky clubs with 5-20 homes and 150 or so claimed members are close to expiration.

So call it what it is folks - DEAD. No one in their right mind would write a check today to join ANY club.

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

luxus vacation properties = only owned homes with no debt and point system
it is literally not possible to be any more conservative.

and again the whole point of DCs is that they are exchange-free.

why would anyone pay a deposit...when you can rent almost anywhere for $1k / night?

i gave examples of massive discounts via Q and BT private collection. ER also has some large discounts at a number of hotels. whether they are of interest is a matter of personal preference, but to deny they exist is ridiculous.

OTOH theoretically it is possible to rent under the table from members of clubs where anyone can use. (including ER ultra members) with Q, they charge a $25K fee to add nonfamily members to your usage list of up to 8 people, not including spouse/partner.

Well Intrawest was carrying all their debt and now they're in a restructuring, and close to a possible filing. AK has no assets

first, absolutely no idea what you mean re AK having no assets. AKRC? AK? owned properties? who cares?

and youre kidding re AK and intrawest right? AK was the best thing in intrawest's portfolio. intrawest had nothing to do with management, and i doubt they had anything to do with operating expenses. but that is all moot, because when fortress bought intrawest they moved AK out of intrawest's portfolio, and into their own portfolio. so now you want to talk about fortress having problems? great. still doesnt matter, because again AK is a great part of their portfolio, and fortress simply wants to make money off them - they dont want to manage, and yet again i doubt they have anything to do with operating expenses. (not the same as capital investment.)

who disagrees about bad business practices? no one. i think a lot of people are moving towards the "who cares what happens" (if theyre not already there) even if they belong to the club in question. lawsuits are happening, more will happen, will anyone besides lawyers continue to succeed? who knows. (obviously the people filing care at least a little bit.)

the industry is clearly messed up, but hey, at least its because they charged too little. (vs timeshares) i personally define "destination club" as "exchange free" so that model is not going anywhere. who knows if we will ever see more DCs with reasonable business practices. who cares? would be nice, but so would a lot of other things.

and just to clarify, while cynical i still say keep hope alive, and i obviously wish the best to people who are currently members, or those in the midst of lawsuits to recover deposits/etc. i care about their losses, even if theyve done a lot of DC travel, although that certainly helps.

No one in their right mind would write a check today to join ANY club.

if true, that would mean timeshares wouldnt exist. and a lot of other things. (im going along with you here, ignoring any established value.)

also re ER >

at sea island and ritz carlton grand cayman, ER owns hotel-managed 4BR pool villas. the hotels have no pool villas in inventory. nor do there exist hotel-managed pool villa residences. (if there were, you might be able to rent privately, depending on minimum lease.)

at ritz carlton ft lauderdale, ER owns all 8 3BR condohotel units. (XX02, XX03, XX08, XX09 on 15th/16th floors) 1603 is the best condohotel unit (in the building) with a very large terrace. the condo residences have a 1 year minimum lease.

at trump chicago, ER owns 7 out of 10 xx00 units (floors 18>27) (the larger/nicer of the 2 2BR floorplans, which can connect to a 3rd BR [xx04].) (the other 2BR floorplan is laid out like its a 1BR + studio, even though it isnt, and doesnt connect to a 3rd BR.) ill have to check residence min lease sometime.

they also own 4 2BRs on the world. the world requires 6 nt min for bookings. ER doesnt. and ive only seen 1 private rental. (OTOH while cheaper, ER and the private rental are not all-inclusive.)

re ER once in a lifetime - the seabourn charters would be great for a demographic change to one unlike any luxury all-inclusive cruiseline, and at one point they offered top hotel(s) on st barts. IF they were available over NYE, that is something that is not normally bookable - they are sold out to regular guests more than a year in advance.

 

[TarheelTraveler]

It's uncanny how many of the DC4MS folks moved over here. As with the prior forum, nothing gets nor can be resolved here.

Does anyone still really believe this is a viable product, in a viable economy? Let's face the realities:

ER - has reportedly somewhere between 5-800 members on the resignation list. No surprise. Case pumps $30MM into a billion dollar hole, what does that solve? The OpCo lost over $200MM last year, and they've set their pricing now to where there is NO reason whatsoever to join. With dues giving an ADR of approx $1000/day, why would anyone pay a deposit (that they would lose 25% of, assuming one could actually be redeemed if they wanted out) when you can rent almost anywhere for $1k / night?

UR - a comment on here states that the AK lawsuit is the black eye of the industry. True, and false. That suit (which is a bunch of individual one's now, it is no longer a "Class" action - will be the show stopper, but even moreso when JT and Co file. How is he still alive? He's failed in private and public offerings. He promised redemptions to TH members he can't honor, and let's face it, the homes are mostly crap. The worst homes at TH became Jim's best, but with 3x the debt load. All the offices he maintains, why? They are (like everyone) selling nothing.

AK - Equity Club? You think? Well Intrawest was carrying all their debt and now they're in a restructuring, and close to a possible filing. AK has no assets to speak of, and their burn rate is incredibly high, in addition to not selling any memberships. So between the lawsuit and Intrawest's overlapping financial and legal issues, there is NO WAY that AK can grow the club, much less stay open.

Quintess, and others -- who cares.

All the dinky clubs with 5-20 homes and 150 or so claimed members are close to expiration.

So call it what it is folks - DEAD. No one in their right mind would write a check today to join ANY club.

Seems like you've got an axe to grind. Are you a former employee of a DC or former member of a defunct club? Kage at least has his facts straight, and he's not a member of a DC so he's a heck of a lot more impartial than most that post on here.

A couple of additional thoughts. ER had 379 members on the resignation list per the ER year in review (not 500-800). http://www.exclusiveresorts.com/images/BR-YIR2009-PROSP.pdf Page 21.

The T&H A&K lawsuit did get dismissed on summary judgment in Illinois, but is on appeal. Definitely much tougher road for the plaintiffs from here on out. I could be wrong but I believe another licensor of their name, Andrew Harper, was also dismissed from the lawsuit. The similar California lawsuit is still ongoing. Seems like you'd have the same result as in Illinois, but it's California so who knows. I've read the court filings, and I feel bad for both A&K and the plaintiffs.

The A&K comments have me particularly baffled. "Equity club?" Well, yes. The members own 11 or so properties completely debt free in their corporation (A&K does not own these houses). How is that not an equity club?

As Kage points out, there is no connection between Intrawest and A&K, other than historical (Intrawest originally bought A&K) and Fortress funds now own Intrawest and part of A&K (along with the Kent family). They are not intertwined in the least. Also, as Kage mentions, A&K is actually one of their better performing assets in one of their funds. A&K is profitable and the RC is close to break even, not bad for the worst economic period in decades.

On the sales front, over the last year, A&K RC sold 60-70 of the week trials, two year trials and equity memberships (mind you last year was definitely very heavy on the week trials, as nothing was selling last year (particularly in the discretionary travel category)). 2010 has actually started out well, with a nice increase (on a member equivalent basis, I bet they've sold as much so far this year as all of last year), so I don't think it's fair to say no one is selling anything. EE is also selling well, along with the Hideaways Club, so it seems like the equity clubs are growing nicely. Not sure about Quintess and ER (other than their good December which is mentioned in the Year in Review).

Extreme comments drive me nuts, because they so rarely reflect the reality. Timeshares had an awful last year, so they must be dead. Country clubs are going bankrupt and having to be restructured, so I pronounce them dead. The financial system was on the brink of collapse at the end of 2008, with Lehman and Bear going down, so I pronounce investment banks dead.

I'm not all rosy on the DC industry, as I think we've got some more bad news coming, but at the same time, there will be survivors as DCs do solve some of the issues that timeshares and fractionals have had.

 

[ClubsRDead]

So....

...when AK wrote the checks to take over Crescendo and Belle Havens, where did those funds come from? They say "equity model," and "no debt," but someone wrote a check and is carrying that on their balance sheet? Who?

You actually believe if there's a filing with Intrawest that there would be no actual affect on AK? And if there was, that somehow these homes / assets would be magically protected? Ask some TH members how that worked for them. It's easy to appreciate someone being a current club member and defending their club, but stating sales numbers that are in no way supported in the financials is uncanny. Not to mention that the #'s you post about new sales were not echoed in their member communications or conference calls.

And lets not forget that no one has any comment to say regarding JT and his UE circus. What is he going to do for cash in this economy, with that model? Who can answer that?

And ER - their # of waiting to redeem is much higher. Watch Case's interview on CNBC and his commentary since. What lifeline does $30MM provide?

So defend, defend, defend - and "feel sorry for" those that were with TH and "lost money." Why? Just because you were with one club that others would consider "defunct," ie Cresendo and BH were before AK saved those members, doesn't mean they're making frugal decisions now.

Deep pockets and consolidation seems to be the only way out for most. And that could mean trimming services and raising dues, especially when no new sales are lining up.

Anyone who thinks selling trial memberships is the answer doesn't understand math. As a member, if you are one and actually paid, you should be pissed that people can pay a fraction of cost and get the same booking rights as you. You're probably more pissed you actually wrote a check of a much larger amount and the cheaper option wasn't available then. Especially from the AK side, who lowers prices so if you want out now, you take a hit.

So keep talking it all up as rosy and see where that gets you. This industry needs regulation. JT isn't doing much different than Bernie Madoff...

 

[travelguy]

Props to ClubsRDead for giving bullet points and specifics for his/her viewpoint. This is MUCH better than the rhetorical non-sensical anti-DC rants that usually pop up when DCs are discussed.

Other than that, Kage and TT have pretty much covered the corrected facts and a knowledgeable response.

It's important to note that most of us who are interested in the DC concept typically LOVE the travel but are UNSURE about the future of the DC business model. Various levels of optimism and pessimism mixed in with semi-transparent DC facts make for any interesting forum read!

BTW - No one is going to defend JT and his UE circus. Although he does get points for creativity in stalling the inevitable!