Question on Upgrades Math

[ju5tcuriou5]

Hi TUGers. I have some questions on Wyndham upgrade sales.

Looking online, you can find what Wyndham's annual timeshare sales are, what % of that was to existing owners, and how many existing owners there are. Based on some simple math you can figure that the AVERAGE existing Wyndham owner spends about $1,300 EACH YEAR on new timeshare weeks or points.

So my question is... who is doing that buying, and why are the doing it?

A) happy owners who love their first timeshare so much, they want to spend 2 weeks a year with Wyndham, instead of 1? So, you could have like 5% of the existing owner population each year spending $26,000 on a new week.

B) frustrated owners who are unsatisfied with their ability to get good vacations with their existing points, and figure if they buy more points, reach VIP, whatever... they will finally be able to make it over the hump and get a worthwhile time/location/experience? So, you'd have something like 10% of the population spending like $13,000 a year on additional points? 20% spending $6,500?

C) vulnerable owners who just don't know any better and are prone to fall for abusive sales tactics, and will just sign anything you put in front of them? Like this story? "Oh yeah, just sign up for pathways, buy more points from us, and then we PROMISE to buy back your original points later?"

D) someone else entirely? What am I missing?

It's obviously at least a little of all of the above. But based on your experience, what percentage would you allocate A vs B vs C vs D?

Thank You!!!

 

[Cheryl20772]

We don't buy more points every year, but one year we did. Our first contract was for a week in a one BR in an older resort. Our second purchase converted the first into a week in a one BR in a newer resort which has lower maintenance fees. Newer resorts cost more points per stay then older ones.

The new contract also brought us to Silver VIP, which has a few nice perks which we do enjoy, but, in retrospect are not really worth the total price we paid for the contract. We fell for the sales pitch-never again though.

 

[weems637]

Timesharing for us is kinda like owning a condo at the beach. We pay a lot, but none of the headaches of condo ownership and the drag of renting it out so that it will pay for itself. I want another week at the beach, I just pick up some more points from the resale market. My maintenance fees are a little bit higher, but its what I'm willing to spend.

I have noticed at some destinations that Wyndham has booths set up near popular restaurants, offering enticements to the walk by traffic to come give timesharing a look. Lots of body count traffic to cull through, but enough bigger fish to catch to make this tactic worthwhile.

 

[ronparise]

im shooting from memory here but as I recall Wyndhams goal is that about a third of their sales go to new owners and two thirds are upgrades, or maybe vice-versa

in any case Im say that the upgrades are 100% folks fall into c) vulnerable owners who just don't know any better and are prone to fall for abusive sales tactics, and how they break down after that is anyones guess maybe 50/50 happy owners that want more, and unhappy owners that think that they are buying a "fix"




You should read the worldmark group on facebook. there are many many folks there that believe they made a wise financial decision to buy from Wyndham at $3 a credit, when they can get credits on the secondary market for under 50 cents. I want to believe that all they are doing is rationalizing a bad financial decision but there are some that have heard the facts and still argue for a retail purchase.. I guess the message is that there is another group of buyers out there; those with more money than sense

 

[raygo123]

So what your saying Ron, every one on here who owns retail don't know any better, and are masochistic?

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[Ty1on]

So what your saying Ron, every one on here who owns retail don't know any better, and are masochistic?

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....or has money to burn....

 

[ronparise]

So what your saying Ron, every one on here who owns retail don't know any better, and are masochistic?

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I didn't say that at all. I'm trying to say I don't understand why someone that has learned about the secondary market would buy from the developer a second time

 

[ju5tcuriou5]

I didn't say that at all. I'm trying to say I don't understand why someone that has learned about the secondary market would buy from the developer a second time

So either existing owners get some benefit from buying their upgrade points from developer instead of second hand... They don't know the resale market offers cheaper points... Or they are just vulnerable seniors etc.

 

[Ty1on]

So either existing owners get some benefit from buying their upgrade points from developer instead of second hand... They don't know the resale market offers cheaper points... Or they are just vulnerable seniors etc.

You don't have to be a senior to be a sucker.

There are benefits to buying developer. It's just that most don't think the benefits justify the cost.

 

[ju5tcuriou5]

You don't have to be a senior to be a sucker.

There are benefits to buying developer. It's just that most don't think the benefits justify the cost.

What are the benefits of buying upgrade points from developer?

 

[Ty1on]

What are the benefits of buying upgrade points from developer?

The ability to use your points for Worldmark reservations.
The ability to achieve VIP status and the perks that entails at various levels, such as 50% point discount, free upgrades on availability, extra guest certificates, etc.
The ability to bank your points in the credit pool either 6 or 9 months into the use year instead of only prior to the use year.
The warm feeling you get knowing you've fed a salesman's family.

 

[raygo123]

For me developer points are the ability to do things I could not do with my resale. From what I have seen, Wyndham, with purchases, are upgrades to the "fairfield" and most CWA resorts. May not be part of Wyndham some day.

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[Ty1on]

For me developer points are the ability to do things I could not do with my resale. From what I have seen, Wyndham, with purchases, are upgrades to the "fairfield" and most CWA resorts. May not be part of Wyndham some day.

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I don't understand, what may not be part of Wyndham some day?

 

[raygo123]

Fairfield. Wyndham as a corporation is upgrading.

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[uscav8r]

Fairfield. Wyndham as a corporation is upgrading.

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We are already there. Fairfield no longer exists as a timeshare system and has not for years.


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[raygo123]

Now it's Wyndham at fairfield

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[Ty1on]

We are already there. Fairfield no longer exists as a timeshare system and has not for years.


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Maybe he's talking about Fairfield Bay?

 

[raygo123]

It may not be called fairfield. Lots of possibilities.

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[OutSkiing]

Hi TUGers. I have some questions on Wyndham upgrade sales.

Looking online, you can find what Wyndham's annual timeshare sales are, what % of that was to existing owners, and how many existing owners there are. Based on some simple math you can figure that the AVERAGE existing Wyndham owner spends about $1,300 EACH YEAR on new timeshare weeks or points.

So my question is... who is doing that buying, and why are the doing it?

A) happy owners who love their first timeshare so much, they want to spend 2 weeks a year with Wyndham, instead of 1? So, you could have like 5% of the existing owner population each year spending $26,000 on a new week.

B) frustrated owners who are unsatisfied with their ability to get good vacations with their existing points, and figure if they buy more points, reach VIP, whatever... they will finally be able to make it over the hump and get a worthwhile time/location/experience? So, you'd have something like 10% of the population spending like $13,000 a year on additional points? 20% spending $6,500?

C) vulnerable owners who just don't know any better and are prone to fall for abusive sales tactics, and will just sign anything you put in front of them? Like this story? "Oh yeah, just sign up for pathways, buy more points from us, and then we PROMISE to buy back your original points later?"

D) someone else entirely? What am I missing?

It's obviously at least a little of all of the above. But based on your experience, what percentage would you allocate A vs B vs C vs D?

Thank You!!!

We have purchased new Wyndham contracts multiple times over the first few years of ownership, and have also recently purchased resale. Have rescinded several times as well.

From our very first purchase, we were told that something like 60% of sales are to existing owners. Surprised me then but after owning and purchasing more it makes sense.

I would put us in all three categories: happy / sometimes frustrated and probably vulnerable. My wife and I absolutely love staying at Wyndhams when on vacation and think their quality and service is excellent. My wife tends to 'fall for' much of the stuff salespeople feed us while I realize it is not as financially wise as resale but wiser than staying in hotels. I try to look for the better deals such as low maintenance fees. For our final direct purchase the 20% buyback program 'got to' me so I folded and bought. A lot of our earlier purchased points were folded into a National Harbor deal (very low maintenance fee) with 20% buyback. Some say Wyndham may not honor the buyback but I believe they try to do everything humanly possible to differentiate direct sales from resale so they would honor it if they are still in business under similar management (if ever our daughter does not want all our points).

Buying resale timeshare has far more 'friction' than say buying a used car. Many people buy new cars every two years knowing they will loose significant value the moment they drive it off the lot. They could at least buy used from a reputable dealer with a nice shiny showroom and some sort of warrantee. Not so with timeshare. During my first resale purchase I would tell my wife and friends 'we either went one step closer to closing the deal or we've been completely taken'. It takes weeks and you don't get a warm fuzzy feeling that its going well. Its a shame there is not a better purchase channel for resale .. maybe the price gap between developer and resale would begin to close.

As for the benefits of VIP, here are ones we appreciate:

- Unlimited reservations / cancellations and housekeeping credits. When I read about the gyrations people go through to preserve their credits even down to buying points in even blocks of 77000 I think OMG am I glad I don't have to deal with that. We tend to make lots of short reservations even stopping for example at Myrtle for a day or two on the way down to Florida. Can always adjust/cancel if we need to when closer to travel. Would we be free to do that if we had to miser our reservations? I think not.
- We often get the free upgrades ... in two weeks we'll be staying in presidential at Great Smokies instead of the 3 bedroom we booked.
- We often get the 35% discount on points (even with an upgrade). We've accumulated close to 100,000 points in a year from discounts done during the 60 day window. Not so feasible of the 'big block' weeks of high demand, but for our travel plans discounts seem to work out especially on 1-3 day reservations.
- Ability to choose your room and try to 'hold' it. This has mixed success but I think they try to accomodate vip members as best they can. I've become a 'view snob'.
- We can do a 'reciprocal ARP' and have used this feature. You say you want to trade your home resort for another for the year and you can make the advance reservation at that other resort. Its 11 months in advance (not 13) but at least ahead of the 10 month crowd.
- There are others but less important to us than the above.

Are those things financially worth the investment? Probably not but the purchase is water over the dam and no sense sulking. I view the investment in VIP as our 'double latte'. Will I buy from developer again? Probably not after having good success with resale.

Bob

 

[ronparise]

We have purchased new Wyndham contracts multiple times over the first few years of ownership, and have also recently purchased resale. Have rescinded several times as well.

From our very first purchase, we were told that something like 60% of sales are to existing owners. Surprised me then but after owning and purchasing more it makes sense.

I would put us in all three categories: happy / sometimes frustrated and probably vulnerable. My wife and I absolutely love staying at Wyndhams when on vacation and think their quality and service is excellent. My wife tends to 'fall for' much of the stuff salespeople feed us while I realize it is not as financially wise as resale but wiser than staying in hotels. I try to look for the better deals such as low maintenance fees. For our final direct purchase the 20% buyback program 'got to' me so I folded and bought. A lot of our earlier purchased points were folded into a National Harbor deal (very low maintenance fee) with 20% buyback. Some say Wyndham may not honor the buyback but I believe they try to do everything humanly possible to differentiate direct sales from resale so they would honor it if they are still in business under similar management (if ever our daughter does not want all our points).

Buying resale timeshare has far more 'friction' than say buying a used car. Many people buy new cars every two years knowing they will loose significant value the moment they drive it off the lot. They could at least buy used from a reputable dealer with a nice shiny showroom and some sort of warrantee. Not so with timeshare. During my first resale purchase I would tell my wife and friends 'we either went one step closer to closing the deal or we've been completely taken'. It takes weeks and you don't get a warm fuzzy feeling that its going well. Its a shame there is not a better purchase channel for resale .. maybe the price gap between developer and resale would begin to close.

As for the benefits of VIP, here are ones we appreciate:

- Unlimited reservations / cancellations and housekeeping credits. When I read about the gyrations people go through to preserve their credits even down to buying points in even blocks of 77000 I think OMG am I glad I don't have to deal with that. We tend to make lots of short reservations even stopping for example at Myrtle for a day or two on the way down to Florida. Can always adjust/cancel if we need to when closer to travel. Would we be free to do that if we had to miser our reservations? I think not.
- We often get the free upgrades ... in two weeks we'll be staying in presidential at Great Smokies instead of the 3 bedroom we booked.
- We often get the 35% discount on points (even with an upgrade). We've accumulated close to 100,000 points in a year from discounts done during the 60 day window. Not so feasible of the 'big block' weeks of high demand, but for our travel plans discounts seem to work out especially on 1-3 day reservations.
- Ability to choose your room and try to 'hold' it. This has mixed success but I think they try to accomodate vip members as best they can. I've become a 'view snob'.
- We can do a 'reciprocal ARP' and have used this feature. You say you want to trade your home resort for another for the year and you can make the advance reservation at that other resort. Its 11 months in advance (not 13) but at least ahead of the 10 month crowd.
- There are others but less important to us than the above.

Are those things financially worth the investment? Probably not but the purchase is water over the dam and no sense sulking. I view the investment in VIP as our 'double latte'. Will I buy from developer again? Probably not after having good success with resale.

Bob

I've never understood why anyone would be happy with a developer purchase especially if the decision was based on lies and exaggerations
I assumed that every VIP owner had regrets

Clearly I was wrong Thanks Bob.
I won't be complaining about the sales force any more

 

[raygo123]

I'm also a happy VIP gold. And am done buying more points and agree with OutSkiing. Our mid point is Poconos for a one nighter. BUT, it drives me crazy to go to an "owners update" and listen to the "gross exaggerations, and feel sorry for those poor souls that have not taken the time to learn the system. I had a resale for about 15 years before committing. So keep complaining, who knows maybe it will change, NOT!

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[OutSkiing]

I've never understood why anyone would be happy with a developer purchase especially if the decision was based on lies and exaggerations
I assumed that every VIP owner had regrets

Clearly I was wrong Thanks Bob.
I won't be complaining about the sales force any more

I wouldn't go as far as to 'not complain about the salesforce' .

 

[ronparise]

I wouldn't go as far as to 'not complain about the salesforce' .

To some degree Im a "ends justifies the means" guy

Im not going to condone lies but if they have to exaggerate a little to make a sale, well thats what they have to do, and if the buyer has the money why should I care.

 

[ronparise]

So either existing owners get some benefit from buying their upgrade points from developer instead of second hand... They don't know the resale market offers cheaper points... Or they are just vulnerable seniors etc.

yea, vulnerable seniors like me

 

[OutSkiing]

I'm also a happy VIP gold. And am done buying more points and agree with OutSkiing. Our mid point is Poconos for a one nighter. BUT, it drives me crazy to go to an "owners update" and listen to the "gross exaggerations, and feel sorry for those poor souls that have not taken the time to learn the system. I had a resale for about 15 years before committing. So keep complaining, who knows maybe it will change, NOT!

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We stop at Pocanos when traveling through as well. Crestar is beautiful while others are kind of run down. I saw some cool looking older units stacked up overlooking the river last time I was there - I wonder how those are inside. Does anyone know?

I also did a ski weekend in Pocanos - weather was fickle (above freezing).
This winter's ski weekend is up at Carriage Ridge in Ontario Canada. Hopefully going north will assure below freezing temperature!

Bob