Pros/Cons of your trust holding title to your timeshare

[easyrider]

Don't be so afraid of the process working well.

Most of us have read one horror story after another about how well the process works. The process has spawned an entirely new industry of exit companies. The process is responsible for much of the fraud committed on those trying to dispose of a timeshare.

What I don't understand is how you would advise a person to not keep their options open. By keeping a timeshare out of a trust, the beneficiaries have the option to take or leave it.

Leaving the timeshare in the trust means someone has to deal with it. Usually, someone that is very inexperienced. Their options would be returning it, selling it or giving it away, which is often a huge problem for them. If mom or pop couldn't get rid of it what chance do they have ? Basically, the problem of exiting the timeshare would still exist for most.

I do respect your opinion that protects the hoa's and developers but it isn't a good way for most owners to go because it eliminates options, imo.

Bill

 

[LeslieDet]

The other point is that many people who cannot afford to pay MF anymore try to have a deed in lieu of foreclosure and yet the HOAs refuse to accept the deeds back. What makes you think they will take back the deed simply because the owners are dead? By and large, HOAs are illogical.

FYI - once again, you have the legal aspects incorrect. A deed in lieu is done in connection with a loan, not an HOA. Thus, it relates to a loan secured by the deed. When a deed in lieu is accepted, the owner/borrower thereby is reported to receive income in the amount of the forgiven debt. The lender then takes title, and unless there were senior liens, free and clear title. Many HOAs can and will accept deeds of conveyance, like a quit claim, or a grant deed.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@LeslieDet Thank you for your perspectives. So is the following a correct approach?

• If RTU (or stock or car) okay to have outside of Trust, Executor can exit either outside or when poured into trust but does not require special legal or probate to dispose whether in trust or not.
• If deeded best to have it in Trust. Trustee can let resort know to dispose, sell or give away. If outside of the trust the Executor cannot easily take action to dispose of it.

I believe the people in this thread want to know, what happens if the resort won't take it back and it is in a trust? Or HOA is asking for exorbitant fees to take it back especially if you own multiple deeds and you cannot even pay people to take them? (we've seen this with several independents and Diamond). Do the obligations go on forever with the trust vs. die with the owner outside of the trust? Can an HOA extract backpay from the trust on MF obligations if the Trust stops paying?

If a timeshare is still in the trust and not distributed, then Executor can quit claim the deed to the resort and close it out per your suggestion. But what if the resort rejects the quitclaim then what? You said you cannot force someone (or an HOA entity) to take on someone else's debt. Then you have no choice but to walk and let them foreclose. They can pound sand against the Trust which doesn't need a credit rating. However they may be able to file a lien.

I seem to recall that when we handled a trust for a grandparent the proceeds were distributed to the heirs (or to an heir special needs trust) and then it was closed out after about 2 years. Would a timeshare that is not accepted by the HOA without exorbitant fees, lawyer fees, and backpay prevent the trust from closing?

If I understand this correctly, a trust approach sounds riskier and a lot more complicated than leaving the deed out of the trust if you know the HOA won't take it back or has exorbitant fees. (not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.)

 

[LeslieDet]

@LeslieDet Thank you for your perspectives. So is the following a correct approach?

• If RTU (or stock or car) okay to have outside of Trust, Executor can exit either outside or when poured into trust but does not require special legal or probate to dispose whether in trust or not.
• If deeded best to have it in Trust. Trustee can let resort know to dispose, sell or give away.

I believe the people in this thread want to know, what happens if the resort won't take it back and it is in a trust? Or HOA is asking for exorbitant fees to take it back? Do the obligations go on forever with the trust? Can an HOA extract backpay from the trust on MF obligations if the Trust stops paying?

I seem to recall that when we handled a trust for a grandparent the proceeds were distributed to the heirs (or to an heir special needs trust) and then it was closed out after about 2 years.

If the timeshare is still in the trust and not distributed, then Executor can quit claim the deed to the resort and close it out per your suggestion. But what if the resort rejects the quitclaim then what? You said you cannot force someone (or an HOA entity) to take on someone else's debt. Then you have no choice but to walk and let them foreclose. They can pound sand against the Trust which doesn't need a credit rating. If I understand this correctly, this approach sounds riskier and a lot more complicated than leaving the deed out of the trust if you know the HOA won't take it back or has exorbitant fees. (not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.) Obviously if the deed can be sold or easily given away it makes sense to leave in the trust.

There are dozens upon dozens of scenarios that folks can dream up. IMO folks need to take a step back and understand the structure of real property law; how trusts work; that HOA BOD members and management are not stupid and that the BOD owes a fiduciary duty; etc etc. The executor owes a fiduciary duty. The executor must advise the court, under penalty of perjury, that he or she has completed a review and inventory of all estate assets. A successor trustee owes a fiduciary duty. A successor trustee is obligated to use the trust assets to pay the debts of the original grantor, and every single trust I've ever seen also contains wording requiring the successor trustee to pay all debts of the decedent, including obligations related to assets outside the trust, prior to distribution of assets to beneficiaries.

It really seems like folks want to dream up a scenario to support the approach suggested by "long time tuggers" to basically do nothing, hope that your executor or successor trustee ignores their legal obligations and lies to the court and lies to any potential estate creditors, and then hurriedly distributes any cash to beneficiaries, all the while running away from legal obligation the deceased incurred as a result of voluntary actions like buying deeded property.

If the owner is dead and no heir or beneficiary wants the ts, then the executor or successor trustee must diligently pursue the sale or other disposition of the asset. They cannot close the estate until everything is done. In that scenario, any legitimate HOA (and I'm assuming that we are talking about the major players like MVW, HGVC, DVC, etc and not those ts companies that are already out of business and in a black hole) will prefer to have the ownership transferred to them as opposed to having 5+ years of non-payment, and then proceeding with a foreclosure action and paying a lawyer to do that.

I did say that no one can force an heir to take on the ownership. Now, in order for a prudent HOA to agree to that, most likely financials will need to be provided. Perhaps there will be some negotiation, like pay 1 year's worth of the MFs, or pay a lump sum to do it; IDK. IT DEPENDS UPON THE CIRCUMSTANCES. If someone is truly a deadbeat, then I'd be surprised that they actually owned a timeshare, because they'd never be able to afford to travel. Why do you think there are income requirements to attend sales pitches? It is because no legitimate timeshare developer wants a deadbeat to buy.

What you are missing in your comment regarding the successor trustee telling the ts HOA to "pound sand" is that the successor trustee cannot distribute the assets of the trust without satisfying the debts of the trust. It isn't about a credit rating; it is about the successor trustee having a fiduciary obligation, and failure to perform what is legally required can expose that successor trustee to personal liability. There are also potential claims for fraudulent conveyance to any beneficiaries, meaning that your beneficiaries can also be sued. Of course, if it is de minimus, no HOA is going to go after that beneficiary; but if the bene received a material distribution, then yes, they are at risk.

So, no, putting ownership into a trust is NOT riskier than leaving the deed out of the trust because no matter what, the debts need to be paid. Why force your heirs to pay for and go through an ancillary probate when you can make it easy on them to have it in a trust? Every single suggestion to just leave it out so you can screw your HOA and distribute the rest of your assets via a trust ignores the fiduciary obligations of every successor trustee to pay the bills of the deceased prior to distributing the remaining assets, whether or not those debts relate to property in or outside of the trust.

Think about it for a moment -- if you have all of your money tied up in a trust, and you die leaving significant tax obligations or hospital bills or you went on a spending spree and bought out Tiffany's on your credit card, your assets in your trust are still going to be responsible to pay those debts. Sure, your successor trustee can attempt to negotiate the debt down with the creditors, but you can't avoid your debt by hiding everything in a trust, dying, and then believing your beneficiaries will get it all without having to account for your debts. Now, there are people who will lie and cheat and attempt to obfuscate how assets were held, so do some get away with it, yes; but it isn't a course of action that is recommended. Kind of like money laundering or failing to file your taxes. Never a good business strategy.

 

[dioxide45]

FYI - once again, you have the legal aspects incorrect. A deed in lieu is done in connection with a loan, not an HOA.

But an HOA can file a lien for unpaid maintenance fees which they can then foreclose on. Can the owner not do a deed in lieu on that lien?

 

[LeslieDet]

Most of us have read one horror story after another about how well the process works. The process has spawned an entirely new industry of exit companies. The process is responsible for much of the fraud committed on those trying to dispose of a timeshare.

What I don't understand is how you would advise a person to not keep their options open. By keeping a timeshare out of a trust, the beneficiaries have the option to take or leave it.

Leaving the timeshare in the trust means someone has to deal with it. Usually, someone that is very inexperienced. Their options would be returning it, selling it or giving it away, which is often a huge problem for them. If mom or pop couldn't get rid of it what chance do they have ? Basically, the problem of exiting the timeshare would still exist for most.

I do respect your opinion that protects the hoa's and developers but it isn't a good way for most owners to go because it eliminates options, imo.

Bill

Gumby - I disagree that the "exit" companies were created because of estate planning issues. IMO they exist to separate owners from their money by lying and telling them that they can get them out of their timeshare ownership. Timeshare exit companies are the same as those calls saying you can rent your II "unused" weeks if only you pay them up front.

Keeping your options open? A trust is exactly what keeps your options open for goodness sake. It is a means of avoiding costly probate and it is a means of easily transferring ownership of a deeded property after the death or incapacity of the grantor of the trust. It is as simple as that. No beneficiary of a trust is obligated to accept the ts. That is the best option. Whereas, when it is not in a trust, no matter what, the executor is charged with disposing of the asset.

I realize your pitch is to tell the executor to ignore his or her legal obligations; and to tell the successor trustee who has access to all of the other assets to ignore the requirement imposed upon him or her by the death of the grantor to pay all debts of the grantor prior to distribution of trust assets, but that is not a good approach. Your idea exposes the successor trustee and executor to personal liability for perjury and breaching his or her fiduciary duty to the estate. I would hope that the successor trustee and executor takes their legal obligations seriously, and doesn't routinely commit perjury. Are there some out there who will, of course. Folks get prosecuted all the time for failing to report income or file tax returns, so yes, people lie.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I did say that no one can force an heir to take on the ownership. Now, in order for a prudent HOA to agree to that, most likely financials will need to be provided. Perhaps there will be some negotiation, like pay 1 year's worth of the MFs, or pay a lump sum to do it; IDK. IT DEPENDS UPON THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

What you are missing in your comment regarding the successor trustee telling the ts HOA to "pound sand" is that the successor trustee cannot distribute the assets of the trust without satisfying the debts of the trust. It isn't about a credit rating; it is about the successor trustee having a fiduciary obligation, and failure to perform what is legally required can expose that successor trustee to personal liability. There are also potential claims for fraudulent conveyance to any beneficiaries, meaning that your beneficiaries can also be sued. Of course, if it is de minimus, no HOA is going to go after that beneficiary; but if the bene received a material distribution, then yes, they are at risk.

Thank you for explaining this. The item I noted in black is concerning. What is to stop the HOA/Developer from making unreasonable requests and making this a profit center?

Sorry Timeshares are not hospitals and home mortgages. I don't think any reasonable judge would support a claim as you suggest from a Timeshare HOA when someone dies, has paid their MF and loan bills for many years on the timeshare and the estate wants to exit given TS terrible track record with not allowing people to exit (this is where the exit company advertisements are useful testimony). Especially if the executor has contacted the HOA in good faith to quit claim the fully paid up deed to the HOA. And demonstrates how much the owner originally paid for the deed. What it is worth now (nada) and the cost of MF and mortgage paid over the life of the deed.

Perhaps make the HOA the beneficiary of the deed would solve this. What is the HOA going to do? Refuse and then pay the costs to foreclose?

 

[LeslieDet]

But an HOA can file a lien for unpaid maintenance fees which they can then foreclose on. Can the owner not do a deed in lieu on that lien?

The deed in lieu process allows the lender and borrower to transfer title via a non-judicial action. I am not aware of any state that allows HOA liens to proceed outside of a judicial foreclosure. The lender borrower relationship allows the non-judicial action. Basically, the deed in lieu is a contract between the lender and borrower involving the forgiveness of debt in exchange for transfer of title to the collateral for that debt. And, when accepting a deed in lieu, it is subject to all other liens existing on the property.

 

[LeslieDet]

Thank you for explaining this. The item I noted in black is concerning. What is to stop the HOA/Developer from making unreasonable requests and making this a profit center?

IMHO...Timeshares are not hospitals and home mortgages. I don't think any reasonable judge would support a claim from a Timeshare HOA when someone dies has paid their bills for many years on the timeshare and the estate wants out given TS terrible track record with not allowing people to exit.

Perhaps make the HOA the beneficiary of the deed would solve this. What is the HOA going to do? Refuse and then pay the costs to foreclose?

You are so overthinking this IMO. What is to stop the grantor from committing tax fraud? What is to stop the successor trustee from being reasonable in paying the debts of the decedent? It is irrelevant that you think ts are not equivalent to home mortgages. It is real estate. Would you say the same thing if you owned the entire condo? Of course not. Don't make ts the scapegoat. How could the HOA make it a "profit center"? LOL - it's not a hostage situation. It isn't extortion. And, guess what, it's not for the judge to make subjective valuations. There isn't a relative worth of one debt over the other, until the time that the debts exceed the assets. I do not follow your statement about making "the HOA the beneficiary of the deed." Once again, real property law has rules for how ownership is transferred.

I don't have any more time to teach real property law on this forum. Please feel free to go back and read prior responses for how deeds can be prepared and what it takes to convey legal ownership.

 

[easyrider]

Gumby - I disagree that the "exit" companies were created because of estate planning issues. IMO they exist to separate owners from their money by lying and telling them that they can get them out of their timeshare ownership. Timeshare exit companies are the same as those calls saying you can rent your II "unused" weeks if only you pay them up front.

Keeping your options open? A trust is exactly what keeps your options open for goodness sake. It is a means of avoiding costly probate and it is a means of easily transferring ownership of a deeded property after the death or incapacity of the grantor of the trust. It is as simple as that. No beneficiary of a trust is obligated to accept the ts. That is the best option. Whereas, when it is not in a trust, no matter what, the executor is charged with disposing of the asset.

I realize your pitch is to tell the executor to ignore his or her legal obligations; and to tell the successor trustee who has access to all of the other assets to ignore the requirement imposed upon him or her by the death of the grantor to pay all debts of the grantor prior to distribution of trust assets, but that is not a good approach. Your idea exposes the successor trustee and executor to personal liability for perjury and breaching his or her fiduciary duty to the estate. I would hope that the successor trustee and executor takes their legal obligations seriously, and doesn't routinely commit perjury. Are there some out there who will, of course. Folks get prosecuted all the time for failing to report income or file tax returns, so yes, people lie.

I said the exit companies were created because it is very difficult to dispose of most timeshares.

You may have a point in that a valuable timeshare, which might be a Disney property, when not in the trust, can create a value of the personal assets outside the trust, that puts the personal assets over State probate limits, which then would require probate of the personal assets.

You may have a point that if someone wanted to keep the timeshare, placing it the trust would make that unconditional.

An executor of the Will regarding the personal assets is only required to file the Will and if they choose to, place a public notice for creditors. They are not required by law in most States to probate. After 3-6 months of a public notice, most States idemnify the estate from creditors that do not file a claim. Most creditors that accept an annual payment, like in a maintenance fee, wouldn't be able to file a claim because they would be too late. The reason they are late is they wouldn't notice a missing payment and no one reads the public notices of every city in every State. This is one reason many resort systems are trying to collect monthly mf's instead of annual mf's.

You are greatly exaggerating with the perjury, prosecution and definitely the obligations. There are no lies being told when the timeshare is left out of the trust. There is no prosecution when a timeshare is left out of a trust. There is no obligation to the estate to do anything when the timeshare is left out of the trust. What you are talking about is being nice. Nice is very inconvenient and can have unintended consequences regarding law, imo.

I will add that I am not an attorney and everyone should consult their own attorney for legal advice that is in their best interest.

Bill

 

[rapmarks]

There are dozens upon dozens of scenarios that folks can dream up. IMO folks need to take a step back and understand the structure of real property law; how trusts work; that HOA BOD members and management are not stupid and that the BOD owes a fiduciary duty; etc etc. The executor owes a fiduciary duty. The executor must advise the court, under penalty of perjury, that he or she has completed a review and inventory of all estate assets. A successor trustee owes a fiduciary duty. A successor trustee is obligated to use the trust assets to pay the debts of the original grantor, and every single trust I've ever seen also contains wording requiring the successor trustee to pay all debts of the decedent, including obligations related to assets outside the trust, prior to distribution of assets to beneficiaries.

It really seems like folks want to dream up a scenario to support the approach suggested by "long time tuggers" to basically do nothing, hope that your executor or successor trustee ignores their legal obligations and lies to the court and lies to any potential estate creditors, and then hurriedly distributes any cash to beneficiaries, all the while running away from legal obligation the deceased incurred as a result of voluntary actions like buying deeded property.

If the owner is dead and no heir or beneficiary wants the ts, then the executor or successor trustee must diligently pursue the sale or other disposition of the asset. They cannot close the estate until everything is done. In that scenario, any legitimate HOA (and I'm assuming that we are talking about the major players like MVW, HGVC, DVC, etc and not those ts companies that are already out of business and in a black hole) will prefer to have the ownership transferred to them as opposed to having 5+ years of non-payment, and then proceeding with a foreclosure action and paying a lawyer to do that.

I did say that no one can force an heir to take on the ownership. Now, in order for a prudent HOA to agree to that, most likely financials will need to be provided. Perhaps there will be some negotiation, like pay 1 year's worth of the MFs, or pay a lump sum to do it; IDK. IT DEPENDS UPON THE CIRCUMSTANCES. If someone is truly a deadbeat, then I'd be surprised that they actually owned a timeshare, because they'd never be able to afford to travel. Why do you think there are income requirements to attend sales pitches? It is because no legitimate timeshare developer wants a deadbeat to buy.

What you are missing in your comment regarding the successor trustee telling the ts HOA to "pound sand" is that the successor trustee cannot distribute the assets of the trust without satisfying the debts of the trust. It isn't about a credit rating; it is about the successor trustee having a fiduciary obligation, and failure to perform what is legally required can expose that successor trustee to personal liability. There are also potential claims for fraudulent conveyance to any beneficiaries, meaning that your beneficiaries can also be sued. Of course, if it is de minimus, no HOA is going to go after that beneficiary; but if the bene received a material distribution, then yes, they are at risk.

So, no, putting ownership into a trust is NOT riskier than leaving the deed out of the trust because no matter what, the debts need to be paid. Why force your heirs to pay for and go through an ancillary probate when you can make it easy on them to have it in a trust? Every single suggestion to just leave it out so you can screw your HOA and distribute the rest of your assets via a trust ignores the fiduciary obligations of every successor trustee to pay the bills of the deceased prior to distributing the remaining assets, whether or not those debts relate to property in or outside of the trust.

Think about it for a moment -- if you have all of your money tied up in a trust, and you die leaving significant tax obligations or hospital bills or you went on a spending spree and bought out Tiffany's on your credit card, your assets in your trust are still going to be responsible to pay those debts. Sure, your successor trustee can attempt to negotiate the debt down with the creditors, but you can't avoid your debt by hiding everything in a trust, dying, and then believing your beneficiaries will get it all without having to account for your debts. Now, there are people who will lie and cheat and attempt to obfuscate how assets were held, so do some get away with it, yes; but it isn't a course of action that is recommended. Kind of like money laundering or failing to file your taxes. Never a good business strategy.

I have a friend that thought when her husband went in assisted living that she would get to keep all income and because she has no savings the government would let her keep his pensions and social security and pay for the facility She even hired a lawyer when it didn’t happen. She not only abandoned timeshares but she refinanced her vacation condo at more then she paid for, bought things like a new car and remodel and then declared bankruptcy with a huge mortgage she rented in the development the next year snd was upset that no one would speak to them

 

[LeslieDet]

I said the exit companies were created because it is very difficult to dispose of most timeshares.

You may have a point in that a valuable timeshare, which might be a Disney property, when not in the trust, can create a value of the personal assets outside the trust, that puts the personal assets over State probate limits, which then would require probate of the personal assets.

You may have a point that if someone wanted to keep the timeshare, placing it the trust would make that unconditional.

An executor of the Will regarding the personal assets is only required to file the Will and if they choose to, place a public notice for creditors. They are not required by law in most States to probate. After 3-6 months of a public notice, most States idemnify the estate from creditors that do not file a claim. Most creditors that accept an annual payment, like in a maintenance fee, wouldn't be able to file a claim because they would be too late. The reason they are late is they wouldn't notice a missing payment and no one reads the public notices of every city in every State. This is one reason many resort systems are trying to collect monthly mf's instead of annual mf's.

You are greatly exaggerating with the perjury, prosecution and definitely the obligations. There are no lies being told when the timeshare is left out of the trust. There is no prosecution when a timeshare is left out of a trust. There is no obligation to the estate to do anything when the timeshare is left out of the trust. What you are talking about is being nice. Nice is very inconvenient and can have unintended consequences regarding law, imo.

I will add that I am not an attorney and everyone should consult their own attorney for legal advice that is in their best interest.

Bill

I am not going to repeat myself to you again and again. Suffice it to say you do not either understand what I have been saying, or you choose to ignore it. You are not accurately representing what I have said, nor are you accurately representing what the legal obligations are of an executor. And, you are simply making up things. No, I never said that lies are being told when a ts is left out of a trust. No, I never said that there would be prosecution (lololol) if a ts is left out of a trust. You are absolutely wrong when you say there are no obligations of the estate, as the executor is the representative of the estate, and the most basic task of the executor is to make an accurate inventory of assets owned by the deceased at time of death, as well as the debts. I'm not simply talking about being "nice". Geez. Why is it you have such a difficult time comprehending legal obligations imposed upon a fiduciary? And, you didn't need to bother to say you're not a lawyer. It is clear from every post you have made that you do not grasp the legal process.

 

[LeslieDet]

I have a friend that thought when her husband went in assisted living that she would get to keep all income and because she has no savings the government would let her keep his pensions and social security and pay for the facility She even hired a lawyer when it didn’t happen. She not only abandoned timeshares but she refinanced her vacation condo at more then she paid for, bought things like a new car and remodel and then declared bankruptcy with a huge mortgage she rented in the development the next year snd was upset that no one would speak to them

Not the type of friend you want around.

 

[WinniWoman]

So wait. . If you don’t have a trust and you have a non deed timeshare your heir can reject it then?

 

[LeslieDet]

So wait. . If you don’t have a trust and you have a non deed timeshare your heir can reject it then?

How are you defining a "non deed" timeshare? Is it a RTU? A license? A contract? If it isn't deeded, then it isn't an ownership interest in real property. If it isn't real property, it is personal property. No one is forced to accept anything. A RTU or license can be revoked and forfeited. A contract would have to be legally assumed. I don't know anything about where you say you own in NH. I'd suggest you read whatever agreement you signed when you purchased whatever it is you purchased. It most likely has a clause that discusses what happens in the event of death of owner. Perhaps it even expires at that time. Who knows, your documents will guide you.

 

[easyrider]

nor are you accurately representing what the legal obligations are of an executor

You are combining the executor responsibilities to both the trust and the personal items outside of the trust. Both are separate entities and often have different executors.

You also ignore the fact that unsecured debt outside of the trust isn't the trusts responsibility to pay. You also ignore the fact that the remedy to regain control of the timeshare is foreclosure.

A contract would have to be legally assumed.

Correct, the timeshare will require attention when in the trust at time of death. This can be a real pita.

When the owners pass away and the timeshare is outside the trust, the trust has no responsibility for the timeshare or other debts that are outside of the trust.

There are only a few reasons why anyone would put a timeshare into a trust. The value is high enough to trigger probate, someone wants it or the primary beneficiary wants to create use time for the secondary beneficiaries in the trust.

Bill

 

[LeslieDet]

You are combining the executor responsibilities to both the trust and the personal items outside of the trust. Both are separate entities and often have different executors.

You also ignore the fact that unsecured debt outside of the trust isn't the trusts responsibility to pay. You also ignore the fact that the remedy to regain control of the timeshare is foreclosure.



Correct, the timeshare will require attention when in the trust at time of death. This can be a real pita.

When the owners pass away and the timeshare is outside the trust, the trust has no responsibility for the timeshare or other debts that are outside of the trust.

There are only a few reasons why anyone would put a timeshare into a trust. The value is high enough to trigger probate, someone wants it or the primary beneficiary wants to create use time for the secondary beneficiaries in the trust.

Bill

Gumby - you really do not understand how trusts and wills are drafted or what the legal obligations are of a successor trustee or executor or personal representative. Your lack of legal knowledge, education and skill results in you completely misunderstanding the process and the law. You have also taken what I replied to another who asked about non-deeded ts out of context. The need to legally assume a contract of a non-deeded ts is what would be required for an heir to accept legal responsibility for that non-deeded ts. That is not a PITA.

I am not the one "ignoring" the executor's responsibilities.

Moreover, there is more than one way to regain control of a ts. Foreclosure is one option, yes, as I've said. But it is time consuming and expensive. It is not the most prudent means of proceeding, when a deed transfer is simple and inexpensive. A probate is more expensive, and could take some time, but not near the amount of time or cost that a foreclosure takes.

You continue to spout disinformation by saying that "when the owners pass away and the timeshare is outside the trust, the trust has no responsibility for the timeshare or other debts that are outside of the trust." That is simply not true. Every single trust that I have ever seen in my legal career has wording to the effect that requires the successor trustee to pay the debts of the decedent prior to distributing trust assets. Those debts include those outside the trust, not just the trust assets. A trust doesn't incur credit card debt. A trust doesn't incur hospital or medical expenses. A trust doesn't incur costs of care for the grantor. A trust doesn't incur federal or state income taxes. A trust doesn't file a final tax return because of death. Etc. Each and every thing you are saying is just wrong. And if you think that is how it is going to happen when you are dead, your heirs have a surprise coming.

Your lack of knowledge is misleading you and others who may unwittingly believe what you are saying. That simply is not how our trusts and estates laws work in the USA. How do you think the final taxes of the decedent are paid? What about any existing credit card debt? Hospital bills? Costs of burial, cremation, etc. A reception honoring the dead? Etc etc. You are simply wrong. And no matter how many times you put up the same bs wording, you are still wrong.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Moral of the story: Consider exit potential when you buy. That free timeshare may be a dog to exit. You may get what you pay for.

I am glad we own MVC/Vistana deeds and RTUs. These have value so can be sold or given away.

Worst case, Arizona limits the amount of relinquishment a developer can charge to $500. Which means they cannot extort the trust executor with excessive fees when they exit deeds in that state.

 

[easyrider]

Every single trust that I have ever seen in my legal career has wording to the effect that requires the successor trustee to pay the debts of the decedent prior to distributing trust assets. Those debts include those outside the trust, not just the trust assets.

The trusts we were involved with were irrevocable with nothing directing the estate executor to communicate with the Trustee. The Trustee dealt with the Trust only. The Estate Executor dealt with the Will and personal assets only. The personal assets were nothing of a monetary value. There was no overlap of duties.

These Trusts were planned out using our Attorney, a Trust Attorney and CPA.

The timeshares were not included into the Trust because at the time the Trust was set up no one wanted them, no one used them, and we were advised to keep them in the estate and try to dispose of them. Eventually all of the timeshares found homes before anyone passed away. If we hadn't been able to dispose of the timeshares they would have went through foreclosure because the resorts involved wouldn't accept a deed back.

When placing a timeshare in a revocable Trust the situation is different as it isn't final. The Trustee has the ability to move property in and out of the Trust. Once the Trustee passes away with a revocable Trust it becomes irrevocable and the timeshare would be a Trust problem as it is stuck in the Trust.

What am I missing ? If I ask my Attorney a question on our revocable Trust that excludes our many timeshares what should it be ?

Bill

 

[WinniWoman]

How are you defining a "non deed" timeshare? Is it a RTU? A license? A contract? If it isn't deeded, then it isn't an ownership interest in real property. If it isn't real property, it is personal property. No one is forced to accept anything. A RTU or license can be revoked and forfeited. A contract would have to be legally assumed. I don't know anything about where you say you own in NH. I'd suggest you read whatever agreement you signed when you purchased whatever it is you purchased. It most likely has a clause that discusses what happens in the event of death of owner. Perhaps it even expires at that time. Who knows, your documents will guide you.

It’s a certificate of beneficial interval ownership. Says right to occupy. Unlimited term. It’s at Innseason Pollard Brook. I see nothing else.

 

[LeslieDet]

It’s a certificate of beneficial interval ownership. Says right to occupy. Unlimited term. It’s at Innseason Pollard Brook. I see nothing else.

I've never heard of any such "certificate of beneficial interval ownership" in any timeshare world I've been involved in during the past 20+ years. If you have only a "right to occupy" then it sounds similar to a license to use. It is quite odd to include "interval" in the name of the certificate; surely that doesn't relate to Interval International. It is not as though Innseason Pollard Brook could obligation II to do anything.

I'm purely speculating here, but it might refer to the scenario where you actually own an ownership interest in the company that owns and operates the ts. Like a shareholder of a corporation; or it may be similar to a mutual fund or some other type of entity that in turns owns resorts. And, your ownership in that entity in turn gives you the right to occupy a specified "interval" of time at where the entity owns a resort. Again, I'm merely speculating based upon the terminology you provided. For example, those who bought the Adventuras (Mexico resorts) options in the VSN don't own any real property, rather, they own an interest in a Delaware corporation (if I recall correctly) that in turn owns the Mexican corporation that owns the resorts, and that ownership is referred to as an "Equity Membership Certificate".

You might want to reach out to your ts and ask them for more info to describe to you or explain to you what exactly a beneficial interval ownership certificate means. But if is the equivalent to a stock certificate, then it is personal property and not real property. Real property is represented by a deeded ownership interest that is recorded in the jurisdiction where the real estate is located. There will be references to the legal description of what is owned.

 

[dioxide45]

It is quite odd to include "interval" in the name of the certificate; surely that doesn't relate to Interval International. It is not as though Innseason Pollard Brook could obligation II to do anything.

Certainly with 20+ years in timeshare you would have to know that the term "interval" wasn't invented by Interval International. A deeded week is also referred to as an interval. Interval International got its name from the term related to timeshare. Interval is another name for a divided interest in a timeshare property.

From lawinsider.com
Timeshare interval or "timeshare interest" means the right, however evidenced or documented, to use and occupy one or more timeshare units on a periodic basis according to an arrangement allocating such use and occupancy rights between similar users.

 

[LeslieDet]

Certainly with 20+ years in timeshare you would have to know that the term "interval" wasn't invented by Interval International. A deeded week is also referred to as an interval. Interval International got its name from the term related to timeshare. Interval is another name for a divided interest in a timeshare property.

From lawinsider.com
Timeshare interval or "timeshare interest" means the right, however evidenced or documented, to use and occupy one or more timeshare units on a periodic basis according to an arrangement allocating such use and occupancy rights between similar users.

Geez, thanks for reminding me that no good deed goes unpunished. Of course I am aware that time is referred to as intervals. I was specifically addressing her question, given that it is my understanding she hasn't had that ownership for a long time. I was simply explaining to her that using that term means nothing to do with II. And, as I've said, I've never seen a ts ownership described in that format, and then I go on to give her a potential definition. Have you seen a deeded ts interest recorded by a document that says "interval deed"? LOL. Your comment is so ridiculous. Do you see her certificate being called a "timeshare interval"? Or, heck, do you read "certificate of beneficial interval ownership" to be written in code that says "timeshare interval"? BTW - her certificate isn't a deed. So, when you say, "a deeded week is also referred to as an interval", that has absolutely no bearing on her ownership. Thus, in her certificate, the term "interval" doesn't relate to a deed. Rather, it would relate to her right to occupy a specified interval of time, which is what I described to her. Try re-reading my answer, and her question.

 

[dioxide45]

Geez, thanks for reminding me that no good deed goes unpunished. Of course I am aware that time is referred to as intervals. I was specifically addressing her question, given that it is my understanding she hasn't had that ownership for a long time. I was simply explaining to her that using that term means nothing to do with II. And, as I've said, I've never seen a ts ownership described in that format, and then I go on to give her a potential definition. Have you seen a deeded ts interest recorded by a document that says "interval deed"? LOL. Your comment is so ridiculous. Do you see her certificate being called a "timeshare interval"? Or, heck, do you read "certificate of beneficial interval ownership" to be written in code that says "timeshare interval"? BTW - her certificate isn't a deed. So, when you say, "a deeded week is also referred to as an interval", that has absolutely no bearing on her ownership. Thus, in her certificate, the term "interval" doesn't relate to a deed. Rather, it would relate to her right to occupy a specified interval of time, which is what I described to her. Try re-reading my answer, and her question.

I am not sure why you are being so abrasive with terms like "geez" and "Gumby". I was simply referring to your reference to Interval International. Thus why that was the only part of your post I quoted. She made no reference or confusion with Interval International in any of her posts so I don't know why you even mentioned it in yours.

 

[dioxide45]

The trusts we were involved with were irrevocable with nothing directing the estate executor to communicate with the Trustee. The Trustee dealt with the Trust only. The Estate Executor dealt with the Will and personal assets only. The personal assets were nothing of a monetary value. There was no overlap of duties.

These Trusts were planned out using our Attorney, a Trust Attorney and CPA.

The timeshares were not included into the Trust because at the time the Trust was set up no one wanted them, no one used them, and we were advised to keep them in the estate and try to dispose of them. Eventually all of the timeshares found homes before anyone passed away. If we hadn't been able to dispose of the timeshares they would have went through foreclosure because the resorts involved wouldn't accept a deed back.

When placing a timeshare in a revocable Trust the situation is different as it isn't final. The Trustee has the ability to move property in and out of the Trust. Once the Trustee passes away with a revocable Trust it becomes irrevocable and the timeshare would be a Trust problem as it is stuck in the Trust.

What am I missing ? If I ask my Attorney a question on our revocable Trust that excludes our many timeshares what should it be ?

Bill

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