Point Transfer Receiving Limit - Capped at 20,000 Points Annually [MERGED]

[sponger76]

If you have proof or even know the rules about how they divide the inventory, you have the opportunity right now!

You keep asking others for proof, but what proof do you have that they are acting malevolently? Hint: It's a full integer value below the number one.

 

[wuv pooh]

Out of all the different options which is the most cost effective ?

20 years ago Bonvoy points were effective, but they have not been indexed while the points required have soared so maybe the worst value now. I can now buy more points from Marriott directly than I get for my weeks for the maintenance fee.

Cruises can be a good value. Especially if they have a special or a short lead time. You can pretty easily shop these if you find something interesting.

I don't think you get good value from the Collette vacations. I am sure they are nice, but they exclude airfare, which is often bundled by other vendors at an attractive price. When I looked I could get a better deal, but maybe that changes.

The selling point is to people who have a sunk cost for this year but want to do something different. They have $10,000 MF in the system and rather than spend another $10,000 out of pocket for a trip they want to use the sunk cost. It would be better for them to reserve a prime week, rent it for cash, and then buy what they want. However, this involves time and a small risk of being defrauded. Booking through Marriott is easy and no risk of fraud, but not the best value. Value is subjective. If you want to go to Ireland and don't have another $8k, then using your $10k MF credit might be a good value for you.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Isn't there risk of fraud if you Venmo payment and the seller never makes the deposit? What are best practices to verify before you send money?

Also where on Redweek can you buy points? I could only find weeks listings. What are the minimum amount of points one can buy to use this program?

What is more cost effective? A small package of points? or a resale deed at GC or ?? and requal it? We are about 1800 points away from the next level of elite.

 

[THSMTHS]

Just got the email.

​

To help make highly sought-after vacations more available, we are making the following rule change beginning January 1, 2023:​

POINTS AND ENROLLED OWNERS AND MEMBERS CAN RECEIVE A MAXIMUM OF 20,000 CLUB POINTS TRANSFERRED FROM OTHER OWNERS AND MEMBERS EACH USE YEAR.​

WHY DID WE DO THIS?​

This change resulted from our evaluation of reservation activity. We found large Club Points transfers being used to reserve disproportionate numbers of vacations during peak seasons. These reservations were then being rented out to others. We strive to make reserving vacations as fair as possible for all Owners and Members. We believe this change will help support more opportunities for everyone to enjoy their ownership or membership and experience new destinations. Thank you. FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS​ ​ ​ Why am I now capped at receiving 20,000 Club Points transferred each Use Year from other Owners and Members?​ ​ ​ Our goal is to help make more vacations available to our Owners and Members. We discovered a fairly small number of Owners and Members receive large Club Points transfers each year. However, these are frequently used for multiple reservations to non-Owners, and show high rates of late cancellations. This limits other Owners’ and Members’ opportunities to reserve at these locations. This behavior often points to commercial use of Club Points, which is prohibited by the program’s governing documents.​ ​ ​ ​ My spouse and I own Club Points together. Can we each get 20,000 Club Points transferred to us each Use Year?​ ​ ​ No. Each ownership or membership is limited to receiving 20,000 transferred Club Points each Use Year, regardless of the number of Owners or Members on the membership.​ ​ ​ ​ We’re planning a personal vacation that needs more than 20,000 transferred Club Points. What are my options?​ ​ ​ We have a waiver process that may allow you to receive one transfer of up to an additional 20,000 Club Points into your ownership or membership.​ ​ ​ ​ Does my online account show the total number of Club Points I’ve transferred into my ownership or membership for the current Use Year?​ ​ ​ Yes.​ ​

 

[THSMTHS]

Just got the email.

​

To help make highly sought-after vacations more available, we are making the following rule change beginning January 1, 2023:​

POINTS AND ENROLLED OWNERS AND MEMBERS CAN RECEIVE A MAXIMUM OF 20,000 CLUB POINTS TRANSFERRED FROM OTHER OWNERS AND MEMBERS EACH USE YEAR.​

WHY DID WE DO THIS?​

This change resulted from our evaluation of reservation activity. We found large Club Points transfers being used to reserve disproportionate numbers of vacations during peak seasons. These reservations were then being rented out to others. We strive to make reserving vacations as fair as possible for all Owners and Members. We believe this change will help support more opportunities for everyone to enjoy their ownership or membership and experience new destinations. Thank you. FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ​ ​ ​ Why am I now capped at receiving 20,000 Club Points transferred each Use Year from other Owners and Members?​ ​ ​ Our goal is to help make more vacations available to our Owners and Members. We discovered a fairly small number of Owners and Members receive large Club Points transfers each year. However, these are frequently used for multiple reservations to non-Owners, and show high rates of late cancellations. This limits other Owners’ and Members’ opportunities to reserve at these locations. This behavior often points to commercial use of Club Points, which is prohibited by the program’s governing documents.​ ​ ​ ​ My spouse and I own Club Points together. Can we each get 20,000 Club Points transferred to us each Use Year?​ ​ ​ No. Each ownership or membership is limited to receiving 20,000 transferred Club Points each Use Year, regardless of the number of Owners or Members on the membership.​ ​ ​ ​ We’re planning a personal vacation that needs more than 20,000 transferred Club Points. What are my options?​ ​ ​ We have a waiver process that may allow you to receive one transfer of up to an additional 20,000 Club Points into your ownership or membership.​ ​ ​ ​ Does my online account show the total number of Club Points I’ve transferred into my ownership or membership for the current Use Year?​ ​ ​ Yes.​ ​

Thinking I must have interpreted this information incorrectly, after looking at other comments. I thought the impact would be on people who secure units and then rent them out. A prime example would be the resorts in Scottsdale. At sites like Booking.com and VRBO there are many rentals during baseball season, at astronomical prices, which I am sure they get. This would be true for Westin Kierland Villas and Marrriots Canyon Villas. It pulls from inventory for those of us who would like to "use" these locations. Has been a sticking point with me for awhile.

 

[rickandcindy23]

How many TUGgers have 20,000 + points? I am just curious. I would consider enrolling my weeks, which are substantial, most were added during the last year. The thing is, our fees are high, so the point cost would be crazy high. So I guess I will leave them as weeks. Shadow Ridge Villages this year has increased a lot, and we own 3 of those. We own a bunch of Willow Ridge in Branson, too. We did buy a small one bedroom at Grand Chateau, which I cannot even book for next year because the website is not working.

What's the deal with the website lately? The Marriott hotel site is also a disaster. I get error code 400 when I do a hotel search on Maui.

 

[SueDonJ]

How many TUGgers have 20,000 + points? I am just curious. I would consider enrolling my weeks, which are substantial, most were added during the last year. The thing is, our fees are high, so the point cost would be crazy high. So I guess I will leave them as weeks. Shadow Ridge Villages this year has increased a lot, and we own 3 of those. We own a bunch of Willow Ridge in Branson, too. We did buy a small one bedroom at Grand Chateau, which I cannot even book for next year because the website is not working.

What's the deal with the website lately? The Marriott hotel site is also a disaster. I get error code 400 when I do a hotel search on Maui.

No idea how many TUGgers have 20,000 Abound Points.

I'm just here to comment on what I bolded in your quote above. I think you understand this (and you're talking about the cost to purchase enough points to be be able to enroll the Weeks you own that aren't eligible) but it's amazing how many people still think that enrolling a Week means permanently exchanging that Week for Abound Points and/or that enrolling a Week and electing Abound Points for it means that MF's are assessed on the points during that election year. Neither is true. Enrollment only means that the Week can annually be elected for the stipulated amount of Abound Points, and the only change to the annual fees is that the Week Owner will be assessed Abound Club Dues in addition to the Week MF's.

 

[SueDonJ]

This is just another way these timeshare companies, make money by forcing you to turn your points in for a crappy valuation, such as cruises, airline tickets, guided tours, and things of that nature. They give you only ~60% of your maintenance fees, value, and then they rent it out on marriott.com for .70 to two dollars a point. Most of their profit comes from the arbitrage of taking owners points and renting them out online so I’m interested to see how they exempted themselves since they don’t own most of the inventory. Somehow they have to transfer destination points that people turn in for cruises to be able to rent them out on marriott.com which I presume the have their own account. Those points have to go somewhere for Marriott to rent them out and recoup their money. They paid for the cruise. They make hundreds of millions of dollars per year doing this More than from the sale of the units. They’re just trying to prevent rental companies that offer people a better value than turning it in for cruises and other things. So people like my clients that are 85 years old they have 60,000 points that Marriott sold them. These people basically have no outlet as they’re trying to squeeze out any rental company that helps them. not everybody can use it for vacations of any type and they have no recourse or other options to use them or to recoup their fees. I have an 87-year-old client who owned to fractional that grand residents that is now 87 widowed whose kids won’t use it that has $24,000 a year in maintenance cost.

How does it make sense? How does it free up any inventory when it’s actual owners inventory? Why would it matter if the owner used it themselves or somebody else used it ? I booked New Year’s in Las Vegas late in November which is unheard of with Wyndham and any other timeshare company, so I’m not sure what they’re talking about helping owners. Also, they don’t seem to be worried about all the points. They rent out on marriott.com to nonowners. Marriotts my favorite Timeshare company and the best by far but this is nothing but a huge money grab to prevent owners to making , a more prudent financial decision having somebody else rent them out then giving them to Marriott.

I don’t mind big companies but what happens if you get these people like the CEOs who never started the company and only look out for their only stock options. This would be a huge class action lawsuit if people realize that Marriott makes hundreds of millions of dollars giving them ~$.40 worth of value for something, they said, was a great deal like cruises and things, and then they go and rent it out for an exorbitant amount, all while blocking them from using other companies that would give them a better value.

Well. This is a lot to unpack but one thing sticks out. You apparently have some type of business renting out Marriott timeshares for other owners, yes? I'm assuming so because you specifically mention a "client" who owns 60,000 Abound Points and a "client" who owns a Grand Residence fractional, both of whom are elderly and have gigantic MF's obligations. In your business do you broker Abound Points for your clients, meaning you might be one of the people being targeted by MVW with this 20,000-point cap on transfers into your account?

(Or maybe I'm wrong and you're talking about "clients" as the owners to whom you sold timeshares during your years as a salesperson? In which case, I apologize for the misunderstanding and we can both stop reading now.)

The reason I ask is because both you and these particular clients still have other working options if they want to continue to hire your services. This 20,000 cap has nothing to do with transfers or rentals OUT of owners accounts, so their ownerships can still be used to secure reservations from Marriott that you could broker as rentals. I get it, points transactions are so much easier with less fuss and more opportunity for an owner/broker to scour availability on a routine basis, but this cap doesn't signal the end of owner rentals. (It might be the first of a drip-drip-drip that eventually will significantly impact owners' rental rights, sure, but it isn't that now.)

I'm also wondering if your clients have contacted MVC Exit Specialists to try to offload their ownerships, or, if they've explored the external resale market. They and their families don't use their ownerships and they're obligated to pay the MF's regardless of whether they're able to monetize their ownerships to cover or exceed the MF's. In that situation I'd be more inclined to want to get out than to work with a rental broker.

As for all the rest of your post the facts are that MVW has practically unfettered opportunity to monetize intervals which they own/obtain through means that are stipulated in the governing docs, that the owners' rights to monetize their ownerships are/can be limited if MVW determines to enforce a purposely vaguely-worded restriction on "commercial activity," and, that owners choose for themselves if there's worth/value in any of the offered usage. Regardless of the costs to us, the profit to them or whether any of it is fair, as long as they're in conformance with the governing docs then IMO the owners wouldn't stand a chance of prevailing in a class action suit like the one you mention. Besides which, most of the information we'd need to prove a charge that they're unlawfully/unethically making profane profits off of our ownerships would need to be furnished to us by MVW. There's no chance they'll give it up easily if they don't have to, and they'd bury us in legal procedures/objections right up until a Court would be unable to order them any additional relief. No timeshare is worth that waste of time and energy, IMO.

 

[timsi]

Well. This is a lot to unpack but one thing sticks out. You apparently have some type of business renting out Marriott timeshares for other owners, yes? I'm assuming so because you specifically mention a "client" who owns 60,000 Abound Points and a "client" who owns a Grand Residence fractional, both of whom are elderly and have gigantic MF's obligations. In your business do you broker Abound Points for your clients, meaning you might be one of the people being targeted by MVW with this 20,000-point cap on transfers into your account?

The reason I ask is because both you and these particular clients still have other working options if they want to continue to hire your services. This 20,000 cap has nothing to do with transfers or rentals OUT of owners accounts, so their ownerships can still be used to secure reservations from Marriott that you could broker as rentals. I get it, points transactions are so much easier with less fuss and more opportunity for an owner/broker to scour availability on a routine basis, but this cap doesn't signal the end of owner rentals. (It might be the first of a drip-drip-drip that eventually will significantly impact owners' rental rights, sure, but it isn't that now.)

I'm also wondering if your clients have contacted MVC Exit Specialists to try to offload their ownerships, or, if they've explored the external resale market. They and their families don't use their ownerships and they're obligated to pay the MF's regardless of whether they're able to monetize their ownerships to cover or exceed the MF's. In that situation I'd be more inclined to want to get out than to work with a rental broker.

As for all the rest of your post the facts are that MVW has practically unfettered opportunity to monetize intervals which they own/obtain through means that are stipulated in the governing docs, that the owners' rights to monetize their ownerships are/can be limited if MVW determines to enforce a purposely vaguely-worded restriction on "commercial activity," and, that owners choose for themselves if there's worth/value in any of the offered usage. Regardless of the costs to us, the profit to them or whether any of it is fair, as long as they're in conformance with the governing docs then IMO the owners wouldn't stand a chance of prevailing in a class action suit like the one you mention. Besides which, most of the information we'd need to prove a charge that they're unlawfully/unethically making profane profits off of our ownerships would need to be furnished to us by MVW. There's no chance they'll give it up easily if they don't have to, and they'd bury us in legal procedures/objections right up until a Court would be unable to order them any additional relief. No timeshare is worth that waste of time and energy, IMO.

How do you know they did it for one person? Official statement or rumor?


The developer owns inventory through a number of entities. Do the governing documents mention how those entities are able to book their weeks? The same as everyone else?

 

[SueDonJ]

How do you know they did it for one person? Official statement or rumor?

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. What do you mean, one person? And what are you referencing as either official statement or rumor?

The developer owns inventory through a number of entities. Do the governing documents mention how those entities are able to book their weeks? The same as everyone else?

Every Marriott resort has its own set of governing docs that consist of a Master Deed, Timesharing Declaration, Management Agreement etc that comprise hundreds of pages. The rules for reserving are mentioned in a number of places in most if not all of the different docs that make up the Public Offering Statement.

Over years of reviewing the docs for Barony Beach Club and SurfWatch, the only anomaly that's ever stood out to me is that the SW docs specifically state that Marriott is NOT allowed to use the 13-mos Reservation Window on the same basis as Owners. (Owners of multiple Weeks can use the 13-mos window to book consecutive/concurrent calendar intervals.) There may be others, I don't know. Like I've said, it's not something I worry about because IME Marriott doesn't appear to be raiding the highest-demand intervals for its own purpose and to the detriment of owners.

 

[wuv pooh]

Do you have any proof that the getaways are "done at a pretty big loss". They can rent leftover inventory at a very low cost (zero?).

The 8.8 net is for the overall business, including managing other properties, not just rentals. If you look just at rentals, it is another story.

I guess this is your confusion? There are no "zero cost" weeks. EVERY interval at every resort is owned by someone and they pay the maintenance fee. Even in the unlikely event that an owner does not reserve a week, Marriott has a legal obligation to ensure that one is assigned. They can't steal a week from someone, rent it and pocket the money themselves. Getaways are a loss because they are on average $300 - $700, but owners paid on average $1,900 and if Marriott acquired them they probably paid about 30% less. So not just a loss, but a significant one, or a subsidized way to get a customer in front of your salesperson if you are Marriott.

 

[timsi]

Every Marriott resort has its own set of governing docs that consist of a Master Deed, Timesharing Declaration, Management Agreement etc that comprise hundreds of pages. The rules for reserving are mentioned in a number of places in most if not all of the different docs that make up the Public Offering Statement.

Over years of reviewing the docs for Barony Beach Club and SurfWatch, the only anomaly that's ever stood out to me is that the SW docs specifically state that Marriott is NOT allowed to use the 13-mos Reservation Window on the same basis as Owners. (Owners of multiple Weeks can use the 13-mos window to book consecutive/concurrent calendar intervals.) There may be others, I don't know. Like I've said, it's not something I worry about because IME Marriott doesn't appear to be raiding the highest-demand intervals for its own purpose and to the detriment of owners.

Most governing documents, management agreement etc mention how the owners are able to book their weeks. Have you seen anything that would allow the developer to book in a manner that is different than ours?

 

[dioxide45]

Getaways are done at a pretty big loss, so assume that is part of the dilution of the rental business, or part of the marketing expense for sales depending on how Marriott views it.

I don't think II getaways are a big loss at all. Usually this is excess inventory from owner deposits. Owners paid their MF and II got the deposit for free. Marriott may do last minute deposits of unreserved weeks, but the owner still paid the MF, not Marriott. Neither II nor Marriott is out any money here unless Marriott is depositing their own owned inventory which ends up in Getaway.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

If I am not mistaken, isn't this proposed January 1, 2023 twenty thousand point transfer limit to a user the first time any rules have been changed in the 12.5 years since the Marriott point system has come into being (i.e. June of 2010) ?

Is this a sign of things to come or just a blimp on the radar?

And, I wonder if transfer activity is working overtime between now and 1/1/2023 to avoid these new rules?




.

 

[SueDonJ]

Most governing documents, management agreement etc mention how the owners are able to rent their weeks. Have you seen anything that would allow the developer to book in a manner that is different than ours?

Only the one I mentioned, that SW docs state that Marriott can't use the 13-mos reservation window on the same basis as Owners - which is to Marriott's detriment, not ours. It may be in the docs of other resorts, maybe not, I don't know. But in general over the years it appears to me that in implementing rules as the Manager, Marriott opts for consistency and is far more likely to implement in such a way that if even only one set of resort docs states a restriction, whether on them or us, they apply it across the portfolio unless doing so would be in violation of any rules.

 

[dioxide45]

If I am not mistaken, isn't this proposed January 1, 2023 twenty thousand point transfer limit to a user the first time any rules have been changed in the 12.5 years since the Marriott point system has come into being (i.e. June of 2010) ?

Is this a sign of things to come or just a blimp on the radar?

And, I wonder if transfer activity is working overtime between now and 1/1/2023 to avoid these new rules?

I think, with this rule, MVC was simply looking to stop the bleeding/abuse at the highest level. This change is perhaps somewhat of a knee jerk reaction. I suspect they will take some time to look at the issue on a bigger scale and we could very easily see more changes in the future. Given how long it took them to roll out the new Abound changes that are not yet done, I would expect any other changes here to take a looonnnnngggg time.

 

[timsi]

Only the one I mentioned, that SW docs state that Marriott can't use the 13-mos reservation window on the same basis as Owners - which is to Marriott's detriment, not ours. It may be in the docs of other resorts, maybe not, I don't know. But in general over the years it appears to me that in implementing rules as the Manager, Marriott opts for consistency and is far more likely to implement in such a way that if even only one set of resort docs states a restriction, whether on them or us, they apply it across the portfolio unless doing so would be in violation of any rules.

In the documents I have seen, the owners have very clear booking procedures to follow. On the other hand the Marriott trust for example currently owns a number of weeks at certain Vistana resorts, including Westin Princeville. How is the trust going to compete with the other Westin Princeville owners for booking their weeks?

 

[bnoble]

Is this a sign of things to come or just a blimp on the radar?

Only the Magic 8-ball knows for sure. But, Marriott is following a well-trod path.

For example, some years ago, Disney put restrictions on Associate Members (one mechanism that point managers were using to help facilitate rentals), and also limited transfers to one per year, either in or out, per membership, for the same reason. They will sometimes waive the transfer restriction if the same person owns both accounts. Disney also added explicit language to their governing documents that any owner with more than 20 reservations in a year had to justify why it wasn't commercial.

As another example, Wyndham eliminated all owner-to-owner transfers around the same time as those DVC changes. In the last few years Wyndham has been playing hardball with owners they believe are renting commercially.

So, there is definitely more that Marriott can do. Will they? I have no idea.

 

[SueDonJ]

In the documents I have seen, the owners have very clear booking procedures to follow. On the other hand the Marriott trust for example currently owns a number of weeks at certain Vistana resorts, including Westin Princeville. How is the trust going to compete with the other Westin Princeville owners for booking their weeks?

I know very little about how Vistana reservations work or how that system will be impacted by the eventual Vistana/Abound integration. How can anybody know before the integration is complete?!?! After it you all will at least gain experience to make educated guesses but it's a topic for the Vistana forum, not the Marriott forum.

As far as Marriott's reservation system, I've never read anything in my resorts' docs that makes me think Marriott ever has an advantage over the Owners in booking Weeks or Abound Exchange Points. I feel like you're trying to trip me up by asking a single basic question in a number of different ways, but every time my answer will be the same.

 

[timsi]

As far as Marriott's reservation system, I've never read anything in my resorts' docs that makes me think Marriott ever has an advantage over the Owners in booking Weeks or Abound Exchange Points.

Thank you for confirming.

In that case, we should assume they are supposed to book the same way as everyone else whether individuals, trusts or corporations.

 

[SueDonJ]

Thank you for confirming.

In that case, we should assume they are supposed to book the same way as everyone else whether individuals, trusts or corporations.

I haven't ever seen anything else (other than the SW 13-mos anomaly) that made me assume differently.

 

[SueDonJ]

@timsi, can you please go back to this and satisfy my confusion about the one person and official/rumor comments?

 

[timsi]

Haven't you been listening?! It will NEVER happen because the super-duper special unique rules of The Resort Which Cannot Be Named Here will cause Marriott's entire shady business to fail if they even TRY to pull that wool over his eyes!

I never said that, but it appears some salespeople took your tongue in cheek comment more seriously:

Poll: Guess when Abound will actually launch

2022 or 2023? 2022

tugbbs.com

 

[SueDonJ]

I never said that, but it appears some salespeople took your tongue in cheek comment more seriously:

Poll: Guess when Abound will actually launch

2022 or 2023? 2022

tugbbs.com

We're not supposed to listen to anything sales reps say.

 

[timsi]

I am pretty sure at least 5% of what they say is true