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Point Transfer Receiving Limit - Capped at 20,000 Points Annually [MERGED]

It would be interesting to see the rate at which they should compensate the HOA for the units that are unoccupied by owners and rented by the developer. I assume you do not think the developer should get those rooms for free while the owners pay for the maintenance fees.
It's immaterial what I think Marriott "should" do with the rental income generated by their rentals because the governing docs set the stipulations, and unless it appears more likely than not that Marriott is misusing or abusing inventory for rentals then I'm not wasting time delving in to the mucky details.

I have some general understanding about how it works with Weeks that have not been conveyed to the Trust. Rental income generated by un-conveyed Weeks owned by Marriott is theirs, but they're also on the hook for the MF's on those Weeks. When rental income is generated by an owner electing to give Marriott a Weeks interval for the rental program, the owner pays the MF's while agreeing to accept whatever amount Marriott offers the owner as compensation, which it's not guaranteed either that an interval will be accepted or that any offer will be consistent across all like units or year-to-year (and I don't believe that the offer must satisfy any min/max parameters.) If you're talking about rental income generated by Marriott taking over fee-delinquent and/or non-performing owned Weeks, I have no idea off the top of my head but I know there's related language in the docs that mentions MF's - again, IMO it's not a subject that appears to be a problem so it's not content that I've particularly sought out.

I have no idea what the Abound docs say are Marriott's rights and obligations related to Trust and/or Exchange Company non-performing/fee-delinquent intervals (although it would surprise me if Marriott doesn't have the right to monetize such intervals,) and I don't know if there's a rental program for Trust Members that's similar to the one for Weeks Owners. But there again, it's not been my experience using the Exchange Company that Marriott appears to be riding roughshod over members' rights. If ever I think that's what they're doing, I'll ask a TUGger for a copy of the Trust-related docs and do a little light reading before, I'm sure, coming to the conclusion that it's not worth the time or the money to challenge Marriott so the only decision would be whether to stay in or get out. :)
 
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I'm sure, coming to the conclusion that it's not worth the time or the money to challenge Marriott so the only decision would be whether to stay in or get out. :)

This is almost certainly not the issue to go to the mattresses on, as they're definitely within their rights and most owners won't be harmed.

But you shouldn't undersell your influence either. When they decided to start charging for Vistana guest confirmations @DeniseM helped lead a letter writing campaign that got them to change. Mod of a tug board for a system can be an influential job.

Edited to add: I'm not talking about taking legal action here, or even the ever popular blustering about taking legal action.
 
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This is almost certainly not the issue to go to the mattresses on, as they're definitely within their rights and most owners won't be harmed.

But you shouldn't undersell your influence either. When they decided to start charging for Vistana guest confirmations @DeniseM helped lead a letter writing campaign that got them to change. Mod of a tug board for a system can be an influential job.

Edited to add: I'm not talking about taking legal action here, or even the ever popular blustering about taking legal action.
That was a case of the Marriott rules specifically infringing on stated rights in the Vistana docs, wasn't it? If we Marriott owners were to come up against an egregious situation like that one I'd definitely join in with any owners in a joint effort to challenge it, and if it helped to mention that I'm the TUG Marriott forum moderator, well, I'm not shy. :)

There have been a few times, actually, when I've mentioned it while contacting Marriott corporate about an issue that's come up on TUG. I don't know if it's been any more helpful than if any other TUGgers were to contact them about the same issue, but every time they've credited TUG and thanked me for bringing things to their attention. They don't always respond the way I want them to but they don't ignore my questions, and a couple times they've given permission for me to quote here their responses as official responses. Can't ask for more. :)

* I'm always a little uncomfortable mentioning that I use my TUG moderator (status? Not sure what the correct word is.) when contacting Marriott with issues that come up on TUG, without also mentioning that it's not something I use when I'm dealing with Marriott related to my personal ownership. I don't get any special treatment, don't ASK for any special treatment - for one thing because it would be very tacky, but more importantly because it'd be a surefire way to both discredit @TUGBrian's site here and to burn contacts that I want to keep using for TUG's benefit.
 
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That was a case of the Marriott rules specifically infringing on stated rights in the Vistana docs, wasn't it?

Yes. I definitely agree the situations aren't the same at all, it was more of a "don't sell yourself short" comment, not a "you should fight this" comment. There is no avenue to fight this and it isn't worth fighting anyway.

Every system that's had points transfers has either added restrictions (dvc, worldmark, shell) or ended them completely (Wyndham, hgvc). Of the two, restrictions is the more owner-friendly choice.
 
This is almost certainly not the issue to go to the mattresses on, as they're definitely within their rights and most owners won't be harmed.

But you shouldn't undersell your influence either. When they decided to start charging for Vistana guest confirmations @DeniseM helped lead a letter writing campaign that got them to change. Mod of a tug board for a system can be an influential job.

Edited to add: I'm not talking about taking legal action here, or even the ever popular blustering about taking legal action.
IMO it's only applicable when the answer is clear. This happened with DVC back in 1998/99 related to the free passes. Their initial interpretation was that borrowed points wouldn't qualify for passes but there was no legal basis and when challenged, they realized they had made a mistake. However, what I frequently see related to timeshares, and other things, is that people inflate their self worth to the system acting like the simple act of complaining will change things.
 
IMO it's only applicable when the answer is clear. This happened with DVC back in 1998/99 related to the free passes. Their initial interpretation was that borrowed points wouldn't qualify for passes but there was no legal basis and when challenged, they realized they had made a mistake. However, what I frequently see related to timeshares, and other things, is that people inflate their self worth to the system acting like the simple act of complaining will change things.

"Complaining" is useless and I don't recommend it, much like worrying. I would suggest an organized campaign pointing out how a rule violates the existing deal (like the vistana guest pass charge I mentioned) is different than that.
 
This is just another way these timeshare companies, make money by forcing you to turn your points in for a crappy valuation, such as cruises, airline tickets, guided tours, and things of that nature. They give you only ~60% of your maintenance fees, value, and then they rent it out on marriott.com for .70 to two dollars a point. Most of their profit comes from the arbitrage of taking owners points and renting them out online so I’m interested to see how they exempted themselves since they don’t own most of the inventory. Somehow they have to transfer destination points that people turn in for cruises to be able to rent them out on marriott.com which I presume the have their own account. Those points have to go somewhere for Marriott to rent them out and recoup their money. They paid for the cruise. They make hundreds of millions of dollars per year doing this More than from the sale of the units. They’re just trying to prevent rental companies that offer people a better value than turning it in for cruises and other things. So people like my clients that are 85 years old they have 60,000 points that Marriott sold them. These people basically have no outlet as they’re trying to squeeze out any rental company that helps them. not everybody can use it for vacations of any type and they have no recourse or other options to use them or to recoup their fees. I have an 87-year-old client who owned to fractional that grand residents that is now 87 widowed whose kids won’t use it that has $24,000 a year in maintenance cost.

How does it make sense? How does it free up any inventory when it’s actual owners inventory? Why would it matter if the owner used it themselves or somebody else used it ? I booked New Year’s in Las Vegas late in November which is unheard of with Wyndham and any other timeshare company, so I’m not sure what they’re talking about helping owners. Also, they don’t seem to be worried about all the points. They rent out on marriott.com to nonowners. Marriotts my favorite Timeshare company and the best by far but this is nothing but a huge money grab to prevent owners to making , a more prudent financial decision having somebody else rent them out then giving them to Marriott.

I don’t mind big companies but what happens if you get these people like the CEOs who never started the company and only look out for their only stock options. This would be a huge class action lawsuit if people realize that Marriott makes hundreds of millions of dollars giving them ~$.40 worth of value for something, they said, was a great deal like cruises and things, and then they go and rent it out for an exorbitant amount, all while blocking them from using other companies that would give them a better value.
 
This is just another way these timeshare companies, make money by forcing you to turn your points in for a crappy valuation, such as cruises, airline tickets, guided tours, and things of that nature. They give you only ~60% of your maintenance fees, value, and then they rent it out on marriott.com for .70 to two dollars a point. Most of their profit comes from the arbitrage of taking owners points and renting them out online so I’m interested to see how they exempted themselves since they don’t own most of the inventory.

I think you misunderstand how the business actually works. Marriott makes its money by charging a management fee - the resort charges all owners a MF and Marriott gets its share no matter what. It is ongoing, recurring revenue, that is cost plus because any increases in costs are directly passed to the owners and increase their fees. They also make money selling resorts. That is what causes the problem.

I will illustrate with my resort Manor Club at Williamsburg. When Marriott sold it there were 8 silver weeks, 8 gold weeks, and 36 platinum weeks. The problem is that Williamsburg only really has (generously) 16 actual platinum weeks that would consistently rent for MF. That leaves a problem with the system, there are more weeks worth less than the MF than worth the MF. When someone deposits into II, Marriott reserves one of these trash weeks and passes it to another owner through II. The MF was paid by the owner, they get a trade that they are presumably happy with, another owner gets a Marriott!!! trade that they are happy with, II gets a fee for running the trade system, and a trash week gets recycled. If you trade for a vacation/cruise/bonvoy they have to pay cash for the vacation. They can't reserve a trash week and rent it for the cost of the vacation so they give owners a discounted value that reflects the average value of the trash weeks. If they offered full value then they would either have to eat a loss or reserve all of the true prime weeks to recoup their money. Clearly, for the other owners, reserving all the prime weeks is undesirable, so they offer the reduced value for people who are happy to take an alternative use option. This recycles more trash weeks. They then take the rental risk. They acquired the week for less than MF so they try to get as much as they can by renting on Marriott.com or dumping into the getaway program in II (also getting a potential customer that they can invite to a presentation). They have to pay significant fees to Marriott International for branding and use of the reservation system, so those fees also come out. If a week does not rent they take 100% loss, so that is a drag on the total system. They try to minimize the impact on the system they created by overselling prime season.

The points system tries to address the trash weeks problem by making the system more closely match the actual demand of the users by resort. Trash weeks cost fewer points and prime weeks cost more, weekends more, etc. No system is a perfect match to demand, but Marriott is the only actor who knows the true demand. They have allowed old weeks owners to participate in the new system, but they have balanced the scales in their favor by what we call "skim", which is a tax on the old system to help Marriott to pay for potential demand imbalances weeks owners bring in to the points system. If they screw up they lose less, if they do a good job they make more money but they start with a house advantage.

Which is a long way to say that the Marriott sales system, in trying to maximize sales $$, creates an imbalance that the usage/trade system tries to fix. If they were the true evil empire then they could use their advantages to only reserve prime weeks that rent for the most value and leave the trash weeks to the other owners. This would work in the short term, but would destroy the system over time. That is why I said Marriott deliberately disadvantages themselves in the reservation/rental business. They advantage themselves in the sales business, in the skim business, in the exchange business, but they would be stupid to take advantage by reserving prime weeks and renting them. If the opportunity arises then I am sure they take it (cancellations, unreserved weeks, etc.), but not as a matter of course. If they acted their ownership like we do the system would break down.

Every system has the same problems, which we discussed ad nauseam for 3 years when the Abound system came into being as a rumor in 2008/09 and a reality in 2010/11. Marriott has not chosen the same solutions as every other system has - flat fee + skim being the most novel innovation (if you can call it that), but every system has done something to deal with the over selling of prime time with the promise of prime usage. I think the system works pretty well and I have received great value from it, but it has changed. I used to laugh at the Hawaii owners who traded their $80k weeks into my Horizons $9k week, but every vacation I talked to those owners at the pool. Now with points, they get to laugh at me. They get a ton more points than I do per $MF. Marriott made the choice to benefit the owners who paid the most dollars into the system and I understand that.

If I wanted to be mad at Marriott I would be mad that they sold me a prime week that was not really prime and that their management fee increases even if they do a poor job of managing the property. I would like to see some kind of incentive fee for good performance, but that is probably a pipe dream. YMMV.
 
From what I'm hearing this was largely a single owner who was reserving months of inventory. I'm also being told that this issue has also triggered MVC to reevaluate the enrollment program. Not sure what that means or where it might lead but I can think of some possibilities.
Seems crazy they would change policy for one person, just cut the person off. Interesting though.
 
I would
This is just another way these timeshare companies, make money by forcing you to turn your points in for a crappy valuation, such as cruises, airline tickets, guided tours, and things of that nature. They give you only ~60% of your maintenance fees, value, and then they rent it out on marriott.com for .70 to two dollars a point. Most of their profit comes from the arbitrage of taking owners points and renting them out online so I’m interested to see how they exempted themselves since they don’t own most of the inventory. Somehow they have to transfer destination points that people turn in for cruises to be able to rent them out on marriott.com which I presume the have their own account. Those points have to go somewhere for Marriott to rent them out and recoup their money. They paid for the cruise. They make hundreds of millions of dollars per year doing this More than from the sale of the units. They’re just trying to prevent rental companies that offer people a better value than turning it in for cruises and other things. So people like my clients that are 85 years old they have 60,000 points that Marriott sold them. These people basically have no outlet as they’re trying to squeeze out any rental company that helps them. not everybody can use it for vacations of any type and they have no recourse or other options to use them or to recoup their fees. I have an 87-year-old client who owned to fractional that grand residents that is now 87 widowed whose kids won’t use it that has $24,000 a year in maintenance cost.

How does it make sense? How does it free up any inventory when it’s actual owners inventory? Why would it matter if the owner used it themselves or somebody else used it ? I booked New Year’s in Las Vegas late in November which is unheard of with Wyndham and any other timeshare company, so I’m not sure what they’re talking about helping owners. Also, they don’t seem to be worried about all the points. They rent out on marriott.com to nonowners. Marriotts my favorite Timeshare company and the best by far but this is nothing but a huge money grab to prevent owners to making , a more prudent financial decision having somebody else rent them out then giving them to Marriott.

I don’t mind big companies but what happens if you get these people like the CEOs who never started the company and only look out for their only stock options. This would be a huge class action lawsuit if people realize that Marriott makes hundreds of millions of dollars giving them ~$.40 worth of value for something, they said, was a great deal like cruises and things, and then they go and rent it out for an exorbitant amount, all while blocking them from using other companies that would give them a better value.
I would think that Marriott has significant costs behind the arbitrage between what they pay for the cruise or tour and what they rent the weeks out for. I am not one for reading Quarterly Earning information, but from what I can gather, in Q32022 they made $165 million in rental revenue but had rental expenses of $126 million. The $126 is the cost of the cruises, tours and Bonvoy points or whatever they paid a weeks owner as part of their rental program. That said, a 35% return on their money is pretty good.
 
I would

I would think that Marriott has significant costs behind the arbitrage between what they pay for the cruise or tour and what they rent the weeks out for. I am not one for reading Quarterly Earning information, but from what I can gather, in Q32022 they made $165 million in rental revenue but had rental expenses of $126 million. The $126 is the cost of the cruises, tours and Bonvoy points or whatever they paid a weeks owner as part of their rental program. That said, a 35% return on their money is pretty good.
April, May and June should not be the most profitable months of the year.
 
/
I would

I would think that Marriott has significant costs behind the arbitrage between what they pay for the cruise or tour and what they rent the weeks out for. I am not one for reading Quarterly Earning information, but from what I can gather, in Q32022 they made $165 million in rental revenue but had rental expenses of $126 million. The $126 is the cost of the cruises, tours and Bonvoy points or whatever they paid a weeks owner as part of their rental program. That said, a 35% return on their money is pretty good.

Actually it is their worst business by far and it is dilutive to the company:

Financing - 69/74 = 93% gross margin
Management & exchange - 97/198 = 49% gross margin
Sales - 161/444 = 36% gross margin
Rental - 39/165 = 24% gross margin

If they are gouging us with rentals they are doing a really bad job. They are not benevolent, they cover their costs and make a margin but it is not a viable business in itself.


Three Months Ended
September 30, 2022
REVENUES
Sale of vacation ownership products$444
Management and exchange198
Rental165
Financing74
Cost reimbursements371
TOTAL REVENUES1,252
EXPENSES
Cost of vacation ownership products76
Marketing and sales207
Management and exchange101
Rental126
Financing5
 
/

Actually it is their worst business by far and it is dilutive to the company:

Financing - 69/74 = 93% gross margin
Management & exchange - 97/198 = 49% gross margin
Sales - 161/444 = 36% gross margin
Rental - 39/165 = 24% gross margin

If they are gouging us with rentals they are doing a really bad job. They are not benevolent, they cover their costs and make a margin but it is not a viable business in itself.


Three Months Ended
September 30, 2022
REVENUES
Sale of vacation ownership products$444
Management and exchange198
Rental165
Financing74
Cost reimbursements371
TOTAL REVENUES1,252
EXPENSES
Cost of vacation ownership products76
Marketing and sales207
Management and exchange101
Rental126
Financing5
You have to scratch the surface a bit more. I think the rentals for the sales tours (explorer package etc) are not included in the rental revenue. Also, the Interval getaways and the other rentals part of the Exchange & Third-Party Management are not included in the numbers above and they show zero costs. Without knowing the inventory they rent through Bonvoy, which they rent through Interval (getaways) and which they use for sales tours and without knowing the origin of each bucket (their own inventory, deposited for Bonvoy, unused units, foreclosures etc), it is impossible to tell the profit for each segment.

Lat year was also atypical because of the high owner usage.
 
/

Actually it is their worst business by far and it is dilutive to the company:

Financing - 69/74 = 93% gross margin
Management & exchange - 97/198 = 49% gross margin
Sales - 161/444 = 36% gross margin
Rental - 39/165 = 24% gross margin

If they are gouging us with rentals they are doing a really bad job. They are not benevolent, they cover their costs and make a margin but it is not a viable business in itself.


Three Months Ended
September 30, 2022
REVENUES
Sale of vacation ownership products$444
Management and exchange198
Rental165
Financing74
Cost reimbursements371
TOTAL REVENUES1,252
EXPENSES
Cost of vacation ownership products76
Marketing and sales207
Management and exchange101
Rental126
Financing5
"an average hotel profit margin lies at around 10% "

 
You have to scratch the surface a bit more. I think the rentals for the sales tours (explorer package etc) are not included in the rental revenue. Also, the Interval getaways and the other rentals part of the Exchange & Third-Party Management are not included in the numbers above and they show zero costs. Without knowing the inventory they rent through Bonvoy, which they rent through Interval (getaways) and which they use for sales tours and without knowing the origin of each bucket (their own inventory, deposited for Bonvoy, unused units, foreclosures etc), it is impossible to tell the profit for each segment.

Lat year was also atypical because of the high owner usage.
They don't make a lot of money on the Encore packages/sales tours, since those usually come with big incentives that they need to pay for, which usually approach the value of the stay itself. Plus, they use inventory that they OWN for those, as I understand it, so they have the right to rent weeks that they own just as we do (you could get into an argument about "commercial use", but that restriction doesn't apply to them.) I'm sure they make a little money in the other categories you mention, but they also own VOIs that go unused, and then they lose money. I certainly don't blame them for driving to maximize revenue from VOIs they own or control.
 
They don't make a lot of money on the Encore packages/sales tours, since those usually come with big incentives that they need to pay for, which usually approach the value of the stay itself. Plus, they use inventory that they OWN for those, as I understand it, so they have the right to rent weeks that they own just as we do (you could get into an argument about "commercial use", but that restriction doesn't apply to them.) I'm sure they make a little money in the other categories you mention, but they also own VOIs that go unused, and then they lose money. I certainly don't blame them for driving to maximize revenue from VOIs they own or control.
How reliable is the source that they use the inventory they own? They could use the lowest cost inventory, the highest cost inventory or an average. I would not be surprised though if they used the highest cost inventory for the sales tour, the sales should not look TOO profitable right?
I do not think you can tell from the public documents if they do that consistently or if they do it at all. The point was that the rental income is higher than posted above because it is Marriott.com plus Interval getaways plus sales tours and there is not enough information to know the aggregate number or the cost per each segment.
 
"Complaining" is useless and I don't recommend it, much like worrying. I would suggest an organized campaign pointing out how a rule violates the existing deal (like the vistana guest pass charge I mentioned) is different than that.
If it's big enough maybe but they consider up front the negative impact to some and complaints. If they have a clear legal path it's unreasonable to think it'll make much difference. TUG is a small group overall though vocal and knowledgeable.
Seems crazy they would change policy for one person, just cut the person off. Interesting though.
I agree but what happens is they get to looking based on one situation that stands out and consider there may be more going forward. Companies in general do tend to make rules that affect everyone based on individuals or minorities rather than just dealing with problem people. We do that as a society with laws as well.
I would

I would think that Marriott has significant costs behind the arbitrage between what they pay for the cruise or tour and what they rent the weeks out for. I am not one for reading Quarterly Earning information, but from what I can gather, in Q32022 they made $165 million in rental revenue but had rental expenses of $126 million. The $126 is the cost of the cruises, tours and Bonvoy points or whatever they paid a weeks owner as part of their rental program. That said, a 35% return on their money is pretty good.
MVC don't have any profit margin on points used for cash type options. They have to turn those points into cash and the reservation system takes a large chunk. That's why they are such a poor deal. MVC, and other timeshares, use these options as sales hooks and that is the benefit to them. Otherwise it's barely a break even from what I've seen. It gives us options but at a cost.
 
If it's big enough maybe but they consider up front the negative impact to some and complaints. If they have a clear legal path it's unreasonable to think it'll make much difference. TUG is a small group overall though vocal and knowledgeable.
I agree but what happens is they get to looking based on one situation that stands out and consider there may be more going forward. Companies in general do tend to make rules that affect everyone based on individuals or minorities rather than just dealing with problem people. We do that as a society with laws as well.
MVC don't have any profit margin on points used for cash type options. They have to turn those points into cash and the reservation system takes a large chunk. That's why they are such a poor deal. MVC, and other timeshares, use these options as sales hooks and that is the benefit to them. Otherwise it's barely a break even from what I've seen. It gives us options but at a cost.
Out of all the different options which is the most cost effective ?
 
"an average hotel profit margin lies at around 10% "

Seems reasonable. VAC makes 8.8% net. To do that they need about 42% gross. Financing and management fees provide that. Sales is a little lower due to the huge marketing costs (where the encore package costs go I assume). Rentals is a large drag on the operation, but a necessary evil.

Getaways are done at a pretty big loss, so assume that is part of the dilution of the rental business, or part of the marketing expense for sales depending on how Marriott views it.

You can try to argue that Marriott internal transfer pricing between divisions is flawed but that seems like a Quixotic quest. Anyone who has paid attention to the financials and earnings calls from VAC and from prior to the spin off knows how the executives view the business and how the money is made. There isn't any deep state false flag operation going on to rob owners of prime weeks.
 
Seems reasonable. VAC makes 8.8% net. To do that they need about 42% gross. Financing and management fees provide that. Sales is a little lower due to the huge marketing costs (where the encore package costs go I assume). Rentals is a large drag on the operation, but a necessary evil.

Getaways are done at a pretty big loss, so assume that is part of the dilution of the rental business, or part of the marketing expense for sales depending on how Marriott views it.

You can try to argue that Marriott internal transfer pricing between divisions is flawed but that seems like a Quixotic quest. Anyone who has paid attention to the financials and earnings calls from VAC and from prior to the spin off knows how the executives view the business and how the money is made. There isn't any deep state false flag operation going on to rob owners of prime weeks.
Do you have any proof that the getaways are "done at a pretty big loss". They can rent leftover inventory at a very low cost (zero?).

The 8.8 net is for the overall business, including managing other properties, not just rentals. If you look just at rentals, it is another story.
 
April, May and June should not be the most profitable months of the year.
Q3 would be July, August and September, not April, May and June. Summer travel, so they would be up there in terms of profitability.
 
There isn't any deep state false flag operation going on to rob owners of prime weeks.

Propaganda vs conspiracy theories! LOL. If you have proof or even know the rules about how they divide the inventory, you have the opportunity right now!

If you look at their sales conduct though, would you say they have a spotless record? Also, look at the bulk inventory in Interval. Don't you think that generally there are fewer prime weeks deposited? I have friends who deposited event weeks at WLR in II, but I never saw one available. Why? And if they can do it in one place, what makes you think they don't do it in others?
 
Do you have any proof that the getaways are "done at a pretty big loss". They can rent leftover inventory at a very low cost (zero?).

The 8.8 net is for the overall business, including managing other properties, not just rentals. If you look just at rentals, it is another story.
If the Getaways are from MVC-owned inventory, it would be a big loss, since they usually charge a lot less than MFs for those weeks. If they are inventory owned by people like you and me that simply went unused (owner paid MFs but let points or week usage expire without being banked/exchanged) and MVC wasn't compensating in any way for the use of that inventory, then yeah, it would be low/zero cost.
 
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