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steve_solo

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I went to an update yesterday. No purchase, I just play with them for a couple hours.
The sales manager came up with a creative way to get me to Platinum where I would enroll another time share I have in Pic Plus.
She told me that the 2BR timeshare I had outside would count for 154K points using the PIC.
I told her I always use that other timeshare as it is a float week in Hilton Head.
She said that each year if I call Wyndham and pay $89, I can use the other timeshare AND get 154K points to use in Wyndham system.
I believe this is incorrect and is not how PIC+ works.
It does give me points credit toward platinum, but not points to use.

Secondly, she said they would give me a second "ghost" pic for 154K points. It would be guaranteed for 5 years and then would be re-evaluated by Wyndham.
Of course she said it would likely be extended again if my account was in good standing.
Has anyone heard of ghost PICs?
Wyndham Sales has a never ending list of tricks.
 

HitchHiker71

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Never heard of a ghost PIC and that sounds very ominous to me, I’d stay away from it. It could later be audited by Wyndham corporate and removed and at the end of the day it’s your account and the sales person will likely be long gone by then so you will be on the hook for any ethical issues that may arise later down the line that could endanger your account status with Wyndham.

It’s also an inaccurate statement that you can both use the timeshare week and trade it in for points. The first part of the process to convert any RCI week to points is to deposit said week into RCIs exchange system - which as you know means you lose the ability to use the week at that point. The second part of the process once you receive the RCI deposit confirmation email is to then contact Wyndham and convert the RCI deposit week into points for $89 per PIC Plus contract - at which point Wyndham will attempt to rent out the converted week to make money.


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Last edited:

Cyrus24

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Everything HH71 said. I'll add that if you want VIP status using PIC's, go out and buy a low MF 3br week and PIC that. The 254K goes a lot further toward VIP (and vacationing) than the 154K. Buy your points via TeleSales, also.
 

steve_solo

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My goals in my discussion with sales were - 1) reduce MFs and 2) get to Platinum
To achieve 1), sales offered to take my existing high fee 600K and roll it into one big deed if I buy an additional 105K or 154K points.
I am assuming telesales can't do this?
The savings are significant - $2.50/thousand saved or $1.5K/year for the 600K
 

HitchHiker71

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My goals in my discussion with sales were - 1) reduce MFs and 2) get to Platinum
To achieve 1), sales offered to take my existing high fee 600K and roll it into one big deed if I buy an additional 105K or 154K points.
I am assuming telesales can't do this?
The savings are significant - $2.50/thousand saved or $1.5K/year for the 600K

Yes telesales can do this. They can sell both CWA and CWS available inventory, just like any local resort. What are you switching from/to?


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steve_solo

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I have 600K Williamsburg - very high fees
They offered me 705K at Ocean Boulevard, of course for $20K
With a pic and a ghost pic, I would be Platinum.
I almost did it just to see how they would describe a ghost pic in a contract.
 

Eric B

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Pure speculation, but I would guess that what they wanted to do was set up a second PIC for you without an underlying TS ownership being demonstrated, leaving you to buy one that it would work for. It's a bit of a risky proposition, if that's what they meant, but they seem to rely on sales screening the PIC TSs.
 

HitchHiker71

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I have 600K Williamsburg - very high fees
They offered me 705K at Ocean Boulevard, of course for $20K
With a pic and a ghost pic, I would be Platinum.
I almost did it just to see how they would describe a ghost pic in a contract.

I would consider finding a 3 bedroom 2nd PIC for 254k that has much lower MFs than OB. You can enroll both PICs within the single 105k developer purchase and this way you are doing everything on the up and up. This would give you 254+154+705=1113k VIPP total points though. You could also find another 2 bedroom PIC - perhaps even in the same resort you already own - that would put you at 705+154+154=1013k VIPP. I personally would not do the ghost PIC thing, too risky for me, but to each his own.


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Eric B

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I would consider finding a 3 bedroom 2nd PIC for 254k that has much lower MFs than OB. You can enroll both PICs within the single 105k developer purchase and this way you are doing everything on the up and up. This would give you 254+154+705=1113k VIPP total points though. You could also find another 2 bedroom PIC - perhaps even in the same resort you already own - that would put you at 705+154+154=1013k VIPP. I personally would not do the ghost PIC thing, too risky for me, but to each his own.


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Agree conceptually with what you suggest, but IMHO, the key to truly avoiding issues is to actually own the TS OP is going to PIC before he purchases the developer points, unless they can add it to the contract that it is a purchase currently underway. Also, going through telesales would cost less and potentially allow him to purchase just 49K per PIC, for a total of 98K in new developer points, plus his current 600K and the PIC points, which could be two 2 BR ones for a total of 98K+600K+154K+154K=1.006M, which would equate to VIPP and 30 GCs per year.
 

Sandy VDH

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PIC+ is only temporary and not permanent, I believe. So that is not a path to permanent Status.

PIC is the way to go to get permanent status, but I would avoid PIC+.
 

Eric B

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I believe you're confusing PIC Plus with PIC Express. Here's what's in the Knowledge Base on the Wyndham site for those:
=========
PIC Plus Contract
When you enroll your eligible non-CLUB WYNDHAM Plus week(s) into PIC Plus, you will be assigned a point value determined by the PIC Plus Allocation Chart shown below. The point value of your enrolled week(s) counts toward VIP eligibility.
PIC Plus Allocation Chart


Each year you can choose one of the following options for your enrolled PIC Plus week(s):
  • Vacation at your non-CLUB WYNDHAM Plus home resort
  • Deposit your week in RCI and make an RCI exchange
  • Deposit your week in RCI and receive CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points
If you choose to exchange your PIC Plus week for points, here’s what you need to do:
  • Contact RCI at least nine months before the start date of your PIC Plus week.
  • Your non-CLUB WYNDHAM Plus resort may require your maintenance fees to be paid prior to approval.
  • Upon approval from your non-CLUB WYNDHAM Plus resort, RCI will send you a Deposit Acknowledgement card to let you know your request is approved.
  • Call the Vacation Planning Center at 800-251-8736 when you receive approval. We will complete the transaction and place the PIC Plus points in your account. An $89 fee will apply for each week you are exchanging. This will be collected after receiving the Deposit Acknowledgement card.
Important Information:
  • There is an $89 non-refundable fee for exchanging a non-WYNDHAM week into CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points.
  • Once points are deposited into your account, the number of points and benefits you have available for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Standard and Express Reservations, Worldwide External Exchange, PlusPartners, Charitable Gift, and WYNDHAM Club Pass will be increased by the amount of points associated with your PIC Plus Contact for the Use Year chosen.
  • You must be a member of RCI in order to participate in PIC Plus.
  • Each eligible non-CLUB WYNDHAM Plus week must be enrolled in the PIC Plus program to participate.
  • A maximum of two weeks can be enrolled per member.
  • Weeks enrolled in PIC Plus are subject to an annual verification process.
  • PIC contracts are non-transferable.
===========

PIC Express Contract
Personal Interval Choice (PIC) Express provides CLUB WYNDHAM® Plus members the opportunity to enroll non-CLUB WYNDHAM timeshare week(s) with the value of each week to be applied to their CLUB WYNDHAM VIP status level. This is your chance to repurpose those unused weeks and enhance your ownership experience.

Pic-Plus-Allocation.jpg

Important Information:
  • The value of the allocated points will only count toward VIP status and do not receive vacation benefits.
  • A maximum of two weeks can be enrolled per member.
  • Weeks enrolled in PIC Plus are subject to an annual verification process.
  • Membership in the PIC Express program expires after five (5) years. Upon expiration or termination, you will no longer receive the VIP benefits provided through this program and the VIP status level will be removed from your account.
  • PIC Express contracts are non-transferable.
 

Sandy VDH

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I did confuse PIC Plus and Express. Out too late last night LOL.
 

HitchHiker71

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Agree conceptually with what you suggest, but IMHO, the key to truly avoiding issues is to actually own the TS OP is going to PIC before he purchases the developer points, unless they can add it to the contract that it is a purchase currently underway. Also, going through telesales would cost less and potentially allow him to purchase just 49K per PIC, for a total of 98K in new developer points, plus his current 600K and the PIC points, which could be two 2 BR ones for a total of 98K+600K+154K+154K=1.006M, which would equate to VIPP and 30 GCs per year.

PIC Plus requires proof of ownership of the underlying qualifying timeshare as part of the contract process so it’s not possible to “ghost” a PIC Plus contract. It is possible to do so with a PIC Express contract from what I’ve heard - though I’ve never attempted to do so myself. The fact that the sales rep said it would expire after five years and would require renewal tells me the ghost contract would be a PIC Express contract.

Agreed on telesales. Though IME the 105k contracts are often offered at a lower price point when compared to two 49k contracts, along with a bonus contract, that would give the OP more points to use overall at the same price point. This is what I found when I bought in 2018. I could have gone with a single 192k contract with 192k bonus points, but they gave me that same price for two 105k contracts along with 590k bonus points at the time. It depends on the incentives that telesales has available at the time though.


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Jan M.

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PIC Express is for 5 years. PIC Plus is permanent. Unless your resort would drop out of RCI.
 

Eric B

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PIC Plus requires proof of ownership of the underlying qualifying timeshare as part of the contract process so it’s not possible to “ghost” a PIC Plus contract. It is possible to do so with a PIC Express contract from what I’ve heard - though I’ve never attempted to do so myself. The fact that the sales rep said it would expire after five years and would require renewal tells me the ghost contract would be a PIC Express contract.

Agreed on telesales. Though IME the 105k contracts are often offered at a lower price point when compared to two 49k contracts, along with a bonus contract, that would give the OP more points to use overall at the same price point. This is what I found when I bought in 2018. I could have gone with a single 192k contract with 192k bonus points, but they gave me that same price for two 105k contracts along with 590k bonus points at the time. It depends on the incentives that telesales has available at the time though.


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Yes, but...there may be different levels of proof required at different sales centers. I did one last year to get permanent VIPG and the proof involved me showing the sales rep a MF receipt for the underlying TS. Not that it wouldn’t be subject to verification if it were ever audited and I do own the TS I used, but I haven’t been asked to provide objective quality evidence of ownership to anyone besides the sales rep. YMMV, of course, but it strikes me as a weak area in the program, perhaps on purpose. One guy actually offered to find me a cheap 3 BR TS to use, but I’ve selected mine to optimize my flexibility both in and out of Wyndham.
 

HitchHiker71

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Yes, but...there may be different levels of proof required at different sales centers. I did one last year to get permanent VIPG and the proof involved me showing the sales rep a MF receipt for the underlying TS. Not that it wouldn’t be subject to verification if it were ever audited and I do own the TS I used, but I haven’t been asked to provide objective quality evidence of ownership to anyone besides the sales rep. YMMV, of course, but it strikes me as a weak area in the program, perhaps on purpose. One guy actually offered to find me a cheap 3 BR TS to use, but I’ve selected mine to optimize my flexibility both in and out of Wyndham.

Agreed - I’ve heard that the Smoky Mountain sales center was actually falsifying PIC Plus contracts to make sales. I have no specifics but so I’ve heard.

The documentation trail can be weak. I think Wyndham corporate is wising up to this as I’ve seen and heard from several folks who have had difficulties with PIC contracts in general over the past several months now. Since this avenue is one of the only remaining nuggets that the sales reps have to help justify developer points purchases to get people to VIP levels, I’m not surprised there may be abuse of the PIC program as a result.

We did the same for our two PIC Plus contracts - picked places we would want to use in the event they ever disqualify for PIC or if the PIC program itself changes in the future.


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Now that I know the difference in pic plus and pic express, I am thinking the sales manager was planning to give me one of each to get me over 1M points.
As a matter of fact, her last offer was for 98K points, with two pics. She called the second pic a ghost pic and said it would last 5 years. That must be the pic express.
I need to line up a real RCI property for the second pic before I talk to sales or telesales again. I agree it needs to be one I will use.
Thanks everyone for clarifying so well.
 

Eric B

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Last one I did I used a summer week Colonies at Williamsburg 4 BR LO to get 254K as a PIC Plus. Colonies is dual-affiliated with RCI & II, where it's a preferred resort and on the high end of the travel demand index there. I've already got 4 elite II resort exchanges with it, or I could PIC it at ~$5.15/1,000 Wyndham pts. I've heard similar good things about Williamsburg Plantation and they both have pet-friendly buildings.

My other one is a summer week Woodstone at Massanutten 4 BR LO. It's only in RCI, but trades decently and Massanutten has an incentive program that typically gets me an extra 12-22 YOU RCI deposit for paying my MF early. These are all in the Vacation Village family, which is fairly tightly associated with RCI, so I don't think there will be issues with dropping out and not being PIC eligible.
 

HitchHiker71

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Last one I did I used a summer week Colonies at Williamsburg 4 BR LO to get 254K as a PIC Plus. Colonies is dual-affiliated with RCI & II, where it's a preferred resort and on the high end of the travel demand index there. I've already got 4 elite II resort exchanges with it, or I could PIC it at ~$5.15/1,000 Wyndham pts. I've heard similar good things about Williamsburg Plantation and they both have pet-friendly buildings.

My other one is a summer week Woodstone at Massanutten 4 BR LO. It's only in RCI, but trades decently and Massanutten has an incentive program that typically gets me an extra 12-22 YOU RCI deposit for paying my MF early. These are all in the Vacation Village family, which is fairly tightly associated with RCI, so I don't think there will be issues with dropping out and not being PIC eligible.

Interesting, I have a fall week 37 at Colonies at Williamsburg - 4 bedroom LO as well. How did you arrive at the $5.15/1000 for PIC price? That seems high to me. By my numbers:

$859 MFs
$0.60/1000 points *254 = $152.40 (contract fees)
$89 conversion fee
$1100.40 total per year / 254 = $4.33/1000 all in

Perhaps your MFs are higher for a summer week?

My other week is at Outer Bank Beach Club I, fall week 42, at a lower cost than the above since the MFs are even lower.
 

Eric B

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Interesting, I have a fall week 37 at Colonies at Williamsburg - 4 bedroom LO as well. How did you arrive at the $5.15/1000 for PIC price? That seems high to me. By my numbers:

$859 MFs
$0.60/1000 points *254 = $152.40 (contract fees)
$89 conversion fee
$1100.40 total per year / 254 = $4.33/1000 all in

Perhaps your MFs are higher for a summer week?

My other week is at Outer Bank Beach Club I, fall week 42, at a lower cost than the above since the MFs are even lower.

I’ll have to go back and recheck it; my MF is $859 + $20 tax, I believe. I might have added the program fee twice, but don’t have it handy right now; using this year’s $.64 gives me $4.45, $3.81 without the program fee, which is comparable to Bali Hai. Could be that the $5.14 was my weighted average with both PICs, my Bali Hai pts, and my CWA pts.
 

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@HitchHiker71 @Eric B
What's your opinion of Twin Rivers, Fraser, CO? http://twinriversioa.com/

Using your formula
$699 HOA Dues
$162.56 Program Fee ($0.64/1000 points *254)
$89 PIC Conversion fee
$950.56 Total per year for 254k
$3.74/1000
 

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Btw, I have already deposited my 2021 weeks into RCI and they show as verified and available for exchange. But I still haven't gotten the confirmation email from RCI.
My chat with them was frustrating! Calling them could be even worse! :(

------------------------
Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:21:55 PM): Hello and thank you for contacting RCI! My name is Brian and I will be assisting you today. How can I help?

Me (12/31/2019, 3:22:39 PM): I have yet to get a confirmation of week deposit. Can I get that email?

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:23:19 PM): I would be happy to request that deposit acknowledgement be resent to you. Would this be for your 2021 weeks from Twin Rivers?

Me (12/31/2019, 3:23:42 PM): yes. 2 weeks.

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:24:10 PM): Ok, one moment please.
Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:25:33 PM): Ok, I have requested to have those deposit acknowledgements be resent to you. You should receive those within approximately 24 hours. Is there anything else I can help you with today?

Me (12/31/2019, 3:26:22 PM): It still says it's being verified. But my account shows they're available for exchange. NOT pending.

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:26:31 PM): They have been verified.

Me (12/31/2019, 3:27:22 PM): I just got 2 emails. They both say ' your deposit is being verified'

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:28:57 PM): It has been verified. You can exchange see that on your RCI account and exchange those for vacations now.

Me (12/31/2019, 3:29:35 PM): But I need to receive the confirmation so I can PIC them with Wyndham.
Me (12/31/2019, 3:30:03 PM): Can I get a Confirmation of Deposit email

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:30:23 PM): You can PIC them now.
Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:30:29 PM): They are verified

Me (12/31/2019, 3:31:19 PM): Last year I received a 'being verified' email. Then I got a 'confirmation email'. Wyndham insisted on having a confirmation email.

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:32:39 PM): Ok, then you will have to wait until tomorrow and try again as those must have just gotten verified today and the email acknowlegements that are autosent have not yet updated
Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:33:03 PM): You can sign into your account and request to have those sent online as well

Me (12/31/2019, 3:33:51 PM): Actually I got the 'being verified' email on 12/10/2019. I just got them today after you requested.

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:33:57 PM): Ok, I cannot request anything different than what I just requeseted
Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:34:08 PM): The deposits have been verified
Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:34:21 PM): You can call RCI at 800/572-0931 and PIC those now

Me (12/31/2019, 3:34:46 PM): I click on the email icon next to the weeks. Nothing shows up.
Me (12/31/2019, 3:34:54 PM): it says:The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.
Me (12/31/2019, 3:36:15 PM): THe email icon didn't work last year either.

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:36:52 PM): Ok, I am sorry for the inconvenience. I cannot request anything different than what I just requested. The deposits have been verified. You can call RCI at 800/572-0931 and PIC those now

Me (12/31/2019, 3:37:25 PM): Ok. Thx. You're sure there's not another set of emails?

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:37:32 PM): Yes, there is only one set of emails

Me (12/31/2019, 3:37:53 PM): Ok. I will try again. Or call wyndham.

Brian C. (12/31/2019, 3:38:20 PM): Ok, thanks for visiting RCI.com and have a very Happy New Year
 

HitchHiker71

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@HitchHiker71 @Eric B
What's your opinion of Twin Rivers, Fraser, CO? http://twinriversioa.com/

Using your formula
$699 HOA Dues
$162.56 Program Fee ($0.64/1000 points *254)
$89 PIC Conversion fee
$950.56 Total per year for 254k
$3.74/1000

I've heard about Twin Rivers as a cheap PIC location in past threads. I would validate with Wyndham sales that Twin Rivers is still PIC eligible of course. For our PICs, we chose locations within driving distance, so in the event the PIC properties ever become ineligible for any reason - we could still use those weeks.
 

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Vacation Village, Wyndham, WorldMark, Vistana, Vidanta, Flora Farms, HGVC Max, and some independents
@HitchHiker71 @Eric B
What's your opinion of Twin Rivers, Fraser, CO? http://twinriversioa.com/

Using your formula
$699 HOA Dues
$162.56 Program Fee ($0.64/1000 points *254)
$89 PIC Conversion fee
$950.56 Total per year for 254k
$3.74/1000

It's a good cost per 1000 points, the maintenance fee cost threads in this forum can give you a good context to compare. Typically posters list the total fees for the ownership without the program fee, so you would calculate the HOA dues plus the PIC conversion fee to get a closer to apples-to-apples basis; that would give you $3.10 per kpts, which is better than Canterbury.

The ones I chose to use were based on locations I would be more likely to use myself due to proximity to where I live, Colonies is dual-affiliated w/II and lends additional flexibility, and both my Massanutten and Colonies are Vacation Village TS, which has a tight relationship w/RCI and is less likely to become ineligible IMH).

Interesting, I have a fall week 37 at Colonies at Williamsburg - 4 bedroom LO as well. How did you arrive at the $5.15/1000 for PIC price? That seems high to me. By my numbers:

$859 MFs
$0.60/1000 points *254 = $152.40 (contract fees)
$89 conversion fee
$1100.40 total per year / 254 = $4.33/1000 all in

Perhaps your MFs are higher for a summer week?

My other week is at Outer Bank Beach Club I, fall week 42, at a lower cost than the above since the MFs are even lower.

You were right, it was an erroneous posting on my part. Colonies comes in at $4.45 including the program fee ($3.81 without) and Woodstone at $4.51 ($3.87). Neither is as good as Twin Rivers or comes close to the South African tiger traders I've heard of, but both give me compensating value (II-affiliation for Colonies, TPU boost program for Woodstone). Both are also lock offs, so I can use them for WorldMark Exchange Plus conversions as well, getting 32,000 WorldMark points and 4 Housekeeping tokens on that side of the fence once my new account closes there.
 

JPhilly

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I went to an update yesterday. No purchase, I just play with them for a couple hours.
The sales manager came up with a creative way to get me to Platinum where I would enroll another time share I have in Pic Plus.
She told me that the 2BR timeshare I had outside would count for 154K points using the PIC.
I told her I always use that other timeshare as it is a float week in Hilton Head.
She said that each year if I call Wyndham and pay $89, I can use the other timeshare AND get 154K points to use in Wyndham system.
I believe this is incorrect and is not how PIC+ works.
It does give me points credit toward platinum, but not points to use.

Secondly, she said they would give me a second "ghost" pic for 154K points. It would be guaranteed for 5 years and then would be re-evaluated by Wyndham.
Of course she said it would likely be extended again if my account was in good standing.
Has anyone heard of ghost PICs?
Wyndham Sales has a never ending list of tricks.
It’s called a PicExpress and it does actually give you points toward VIP but not for booking.
 
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