Penalized because one of my contracts is listed as developer

[paxsarah]

It’s not me (I’m resale-only so it doesn’t impact me), I just see the issue pop up periodically and it’s just frustrating to me that Wyndham would rather insist that the system is “working as intended” rather than correcting the problem it created for these owners. The source for “working as intended” should be Wyndham’s written policy documentation and it states nowhere that non-VIPs are to receive anything other than 1 housekeeping per 70k points.

 

[pagosajim]

This is just one of my pet peeves with Wyndham, because they coded this sloppily and now some owners are penalized a housekeeping credit for absolutely no reason. But anyway, it's still not been fixed based on this Facebook exchange. I know nobody but me cares. But at least y'all understand the concept.

View attachment 109545

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I thought the HK credits award was 1 per 77k points, at least at some time in the past.

If that were correct at one time, could it be possible that the underlying code was never updated and that's the cause of @paxsarah HK credit calculation issue?

 

[paxsarah]

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I thought the HK credits award was 1 per 77k points, at least at some time in the past.

If that were correct at one time, could it be possible that the underlying code was never updated and that's the cause of @paxsarah HK credit calculation issue?

Reservation transactions are 1 per 77k, housekeeping is 1 per 70k.

The issue is that, as with the owner in the screenshot I posted, since the August 2021 update their housekeeping credits are being calculated in two chunks instead of a single calculation on their total number of points. So that owner has one resale contract and one developer. One contract is 126k - which on its own only receives 1 HK credit. The other, 256k, gets 3 HK credits. But if you take their total number of points, 382k, they should receive 5 HK credits but they're only receiving 4.

This is because they're treating hybrid non-VIP accounts the same way they treat hybrid VIP accounts. With hybrid VIPs, the calculation works - they have one set of housekeeping credits for their developer points based on their VIP level (either unlimited if grandfathered, or 1 per 70k plus extras based on level if they're a newer VIP), and a second set of housekeeping credits for their resale points based solely on 1 per 70k. When they book, they have to pick which type of points they're using, so the housekeeping credits are never combined. It's two separate sets of benefits. But for a hybrid non-VIP, they don't choose which type of points they're using, everything is already combined, but the system was set up to calculate housekeeping separately on resale and retail points and add them together. I would bet money on my theory that the developers never considered the possibility or tested any scenarios where that two-part calculation could yield the wrong number of housekeeping credits (and sometimes it's correct, just depending on the size of the contracts). It's such a small number of users that they probably didn't bother doing a robust analysis on it when they were developing it, and they have shown no interest in correcting it after the fact. It's easier to say the system is working as intended.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Reservation transactions are 1 per 77k, housekeeping is 1 per 70k.

The issue is that, as with the owner in the screenshot I posted, since the August 2021 update their housekeeping credits are being calculated in two chunks instead of a single calculation on their total number of points. So that owner has one resale contract and one developer. One contract is 126k - which on its own only receives 1 HK credit. The other, 256k, gets 3 HK credits. But if you take their total number of points, 382k, they should receive 5 HK credits but they're only receiving 4.

This is because they're treating hybrid non-VIP accounts the same way they treat hybrid VIP accounts. With hybrid VIPs, the calculation works - they have one set of housekeeping credits for their developer points based on their VIP level (either unlimited if grandfathered, or 1 per 70k plus extras based on level if they're a newer VIP), and a second set of housekeeping credits for their resale points based solely on 1 per 70k. When they book, they have to pick which type of points they're using, so the housekeeping credits are never combined. It's two separate sets of benefits. But for a hybrid non-VIP, they don't choose which type of points they're using, everything is already combined, but the system was set up to calculate housekeeping separately on resale and retail points and add them together. I would bet money on my theory that the developers never considered the possibility or tested any scenarios where that two-part calculation could yield the wrong number of housekeeping credits (and sometimes it's correct, just depending on the size of the contracts). It's such a small number of users that they probably didn't bother doing a robust analysis on it when they were developing it, and they have shown no interest in correcting it after the fact. It's easier to say the system is working as intended.

As I have repeatedly indicated in the past on this topic, it's a simple matter of 80/20. What you're identifying here is an edge case - well within the 20% in other words. Wyndham isn't going to place much of any focus on fixing something that only applies to a minority of owners - edge cases. Eventually it might get fixed, but only if time allows. This was a major change in development focus with the new website - they aren't listening to the noisy 20% any longer - they are listening to the 80% majority. This is good business practice. We take the same approach with our coders - focus on the biggest bang for the buck - don't get distracted fixing a bunch of small-time issues that are only impacting a small minority of the customer base. Those in the minority may not like it, but that's the way it is. These days every company has limited dev/product resources that can only focus on a limited amount of queued work for bug fixes and improvements - so you have to prioritize. That's the way the world has worked increasingly within the development space over the past 20 years now (via agile methodologies).

 

[paxsarah]

As I have repeatedly indicated, it's a simple matter of 80/20. What you're identifying here is an edge case - well within the 20% in other words. Wyndham isn't going to place much of any focus on fixing something that only applies to a minority of owners - edge cases. Eventually it might get fixed, but only if time allows. This was a major change in development focus with the new website - they aren't listening to the noisy 20% any longer - they are listening to the 80% majority. This is good business practice. We take the same approach with our coders - focus on the biggest bang for the buck - don't get distracted fixing a bunch of small time issues that are only impacting a small minority of the customer base. Those in the minority may not like it, but that's the way it is.

If they're not going to code a fix, then they should at least be intellectually honest and admit that those accounts aren't functioning as intended, and offer goodwill housekeeping credits if an owner contacts owner care about this issue. That's not a coding issue, it's a training and communication and integrity issue.

 

[HitchHiker71]

If they're not going to code a fix, then they should at least be intellectually honest and admit that those accounts aren't functioning as intended, and offer goodwill housekeeping credits if an owner contacts owner care about this issue. That's not a coding issue, it's a training and communication and integrity issue.

No argument here - clarity should be in order for this issue even as an edge case. I can re-address with Wyndham to see if we can progress on this matter - but no promises given it's an edge case by design. Remember, only 5-7% of the owner base owns any resale contracts last we checked.

 

[paxsarah]

No argument here - clarity should be in order for this issue even as an edge case. I can re-address with Wyndham to see if we can progress on this matter - but no promises given it's an edge case by design. Remember, only 5-7% of the owner base owns any resale contracts last we checked.

That would be great, if they could just acknowledge the issue. There are several areas where confusion could be solved simply by better communication/documentation from Wyndham, no coding other than updating the phrasing on the website and directory. (One example: my other pet peeve, the presentation of the vacation planning calendar that hasn't changed since the days of fixed weeks and no explanation of why there are Friday, Saturday, and Sunday columns. Another quirk: Did you know the current version of the print directory doesn't actually say anywhere in it that non-VIP owners have the first 3 months of their use year to use Points Deposit? I'm very curious to see if they fix that omission in the new directory.)

 

[CO skier]

This was a result of the implementation of new policy enforcement *for VIP owners only* in 2021.

This might be an explanation of the housekeeping calculation "policy" post 2021 (not saying it is right one way or another, just a possible explanation to consider). In 2021, resale points and developer purchased points were divided into to different "buckets" of points. This would apply to both hybrid VIP owners and hybrid non-VIP owners.

Mid August update (downtime *early* Wednesday night)

I was wondering if these steps could work: 1) combine points from resale + developer 2) apply non-VIP HK and RT credits 3) for developer points only, apply additional VIP credits This wouldn't provide the correct amount for VIP owners. For VIP owners, each bucket is calculated separately and...

tugbbs.com

It appears from this post that back in 2021, even hybrid VIP owners were being shorted housekeeping based on housekeeping being calculated using two different buckets of points.

Is this still true today? Does a Bronze VIP with 126,000 resale points and 315,000 developer points receive 7 HK (6 for the combined points total plus 1 bonus VIP HK), or does the VIP receive 6 HK (1 for 126,000 points plus 4 for 315,000 points plus 1 bonus VIP HK)? If the latter, then the housekeeping "policy" is being applied equally for both hybrid VIP owners and hybrid non-VIP owners.

 

[paxsarah]

Is this still true today? Does a Bronze VIP with 126,000 resale points and 315,000 developer points receive 7 HK (6 for the combined points total plus 1 bonus VIP HK), or does the VIP receive 6 HK (1 for 126,000 points plus 4 for 315,000 points plus 1 bonus VIP HK)? If the latter, then the housekeeping "policy" is being applied equally for both hybrid VIP owners and hybrid non-VIP owners.

The VIP Bronze owner in that scenario would receive 5 HK for their VIP points (4 plus 1 bonus for being Bronze), and 1 HK for their resale points. But in that case, the points don't combine either (except in the single scenario of a resale reservation borrowing developer points to complete it and being treated as resale). It's essentially being treated as two separate accounts under one member number, each with different sets of benefits that don't cross over - points can combine in one limited instance, but not benefits. Such an owner would also receive 2 guest certificates for their resale points only (untransferable to their VIP points), in addition to the 3 guest certificates they receive for their VIP Bronze ownership - again, as if it were two (nearly) separate accounts.

In the case of a hybrid non-VIP, it's being treated as a single account with a single bucket of points and a single set of benefits. Such owners were told nothing would change in their housekeeping calculation. A resale-only owner with the combination of contracts in my recent post (126k and 256k) would receive 5 housekeeping credits, but a hybrid non-VIP owner receives 4. This, even though both such owners are considered standard owners and the policy that applies is the same (page 318 of the 2023-24 directory, "1 Housekeeping Credit is awarded for every 70,000 points you own"). Every indication is that Wyndham never intended to treat non-VIP owners who had actually purchased from them worse in this respect than resale-only owners who had never purchased from them.

Or, as I have stated repeatedly since 2021, if this is purported to be an official policy and not just a mistake they've decided to double down on, spell it out. Put it in the directory (which has had two print editions since this change) or on the website. Words are free.

 

[CO skier]

even though both such owners are considered standard owners and the policy that applies is the same

Are they? Or are hybrid non-VIP really non-standard owners with two buckets of points -- one for resale points and one for developer points -- just like hybrid-VIP, non-standard owners?

 

[paxsarah]

Are they? Or are hybrid non-VIP really non-standard owners with two buckets of points -- one for resale points and one for developer points -- just like hybrid-VIP, non-standard owners?

It depends if you believe Wyndham's own statement.

 

[CO skier]

It depends if you believe Wyndham's own statement.

It depends on how the statement is interpreted.

For all owners, HK is awarded for every 70,000 points, just as it has always been, and just as it is listed on page 318 of the directory.

Standard owner - all resale points: All the points are in one bucket. 1 HK per 70,000 points owned.

Non-standard, hybrid non-VIP owner: One bucket for resale points and one bucket of developer points. 1 HK per 70,000 points is calculated for each, separate bucket.

Non-standard, hybrid VIP owner: One bucket for resale points and one bucket of developer points. 1 HK per 70,000 points is calculated for each, separate bucket.

There is nothing in the Directory about how HK is calculated regarding two different buckets of points, but we know the two different bucket of points exist for resale and developer points. The unwritten "policy" seems to be that HK is calculated for each bucket, and that is the way it is programmed.

 

[HitchHiker71]

It depends on how the statement is interpreted.

For all owners, HK is awarded for every 70,000 points, just as it has always been, and just as it is listed on page 318 of the directory.

Standard owner - all resale points: All the points are in one bucket. 1 HK per 70,000 points owned.

Non-standard, hybrid non-VIP owner: One bucket for resale points and one bucket of developer points. 1 HK per 70,000 points is calculated for each, separate bucket.

Non-standard, hybrid VIP owner: One bucket for resale points and one bucket of developer points. 1 HK per 70,000 points is calculated for each, separate bucket.

There is nothing in the Directory about how HK is calculated regarding two different buckets of points, but we know the two different bucket of points exist for resale and developer points. The unwritten "policy" seems to be that HK is calculated for each bucket, and that is the way it is programmed.

Yes, this has always been my assumption as to how this works as well - even if the non-VIP owners don't see the bucket breakdown since they don't have any VIP benefits. Can anyone here on TUG validate this assumption - that the separate buckets don't appear - that is a hybrid non-VIP owner? It just occurred to me that even for these owners, who originally had no bucket breakdown back in 2021 - may now actually have this bucket breakdown starting when online Club Pass bookings became available - since only developer points can be used for Club Pass reservations - though perhaps the system simply posts an error if the owner attempts to use more points than they have available within their "hidden" buckets if they don't display that way.

 

[paxsarah]

It depends on how the statement is interpreted.

For all owners, HK is awarded for every 70,000 points, just as it has always been, and just as it is listed on page 318 of the directory.

Standard owner - all resale points: All the points are in one bucket. 1 HK per 70,000 points owned.

Non-standard, hybrid non-VIP owner: One bucket for resale points and one bucket of developer points. 1 HK per 70,000 points is calculated for each, separate bucket.

Non-standard, hybrid VIP owner: One bucket for resale points and one bucket of developer points. 1 HK per 70,000 points is calculated for each, separate bucket.

There is nothing in the Directory about how HK is calculated regarding two different buckets of points, but we know the two different bucket of points exist for resale and developer points. The unwritten "policy" seems to be that HK is calculated for each bucket, and that is the way it is programmed.

The question was framed, "If I own both points purchased from Wyndham and points bought from a friend" which is an exact description of a hybrid non-VIP owner (because the audience for this webinar was everyone other than hybrid VIPs, who had their own webinar) "is there any difference in the way my housekeeping credits and reservation transactions are calculated?" And the answer was "Your housekeeping credits and reservation transactions will continue to [be] allocated as they always have been."

I don't know how you can interpret the statement to be anything other than telling a hybrid non-VIP that their housekeeping credits wouldn't change.

But I do know that this is the last time I'm going to click "show ignored content" to continue this conversation.

 

[paxsarah]

Yes, this has always been my assumption as to how this works as well - even if the non-VIP owners don't see the bucket breakdown since they don't have any VIP benefits. Can anyone here on TUG validate this assumption that is a hybrid non-VIP owner? It just occurred to me that even for these owners, who originally had no bucket breakdown back in 2021 - may now actually have this bucket breakdown starting when online Club Pass bookings became available - since only developer points can be used for Club Pass reservations - though perhaps the system simply posts an error if the owner attempts to use more points than they have available within their "hidden" buckets if they don't display that way.

They have always had an underlying bucket breakdown, but have never had a visible bucket breakdown, so I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

(Edit: here's an example of the underlying bucket breakdown causing incorrect housekeeping calculations back in 2021 as soon as the update took effect.)

In terms of Club Pass, it's listed on the Benefits Summary page, isn't it? That's how points remaining for that benefit are tracked AFAIK.

 

[HitchHiker71]

They have always had an underlying bucket breakdown, but have never had a visible bucket breakdown, so I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

(Edit: here's an example of the underlying bucket breakdown causing incorrect housekeeping calculations back in 2021 as soon as the update took effect.)

In terms of Club Pass, it's listed on the Benefits Summary page, isn't it? That's how points remaining for that benefit are tracked AFAIK.

I'm asking if the bucket breakdown has become visible for non-VIP hybrid owners basically. I'm aware that the points buckets are displayed in the Benefit Summary, however I'm also aware that most folks don't seem to use that feature much, and those that do find it a bit confusing overall. I'm also aware that the Points or Benefit Summaries aren't currently available natively in the mobile app either, though at least I have tabs for Developer and Resale under my Account area that show me the most important info for points bucket breakdowns.

 

[CO skier]

I don't know how you can interpret the statement to be anything other than telling a hybrid non-VIP that their housekeeping credits wouldn't change.

Because it does not state, "housekeeping credits wouldn't change" or "you will receive the same number of housekeeping credits"; it states, ""Your housekeeping credits and reservation transactions will continue to [be] allocated as they always have been." (1 HK per 70,000 credits).

 

[paxsarah]

I'm asking if the bucket breakdown has become visible for non-VIP hybrid owners basically. I'm aware that the points buckets are displayed in the Benefit Summary, however I'm also aware that most folks don't seem to use that feature much, and those that do find it a bit confusing overall. I'm also aware that the Points or Benefit Summaries aren't currently available natively in the mobile app either, though at least I have tabs for Developer and Resale under my Account area that show me the most important info for points bucket breakdowns.

I'm sure we would have heard about it. Although the speculation in this forum back in 2021 was that hybrid non-VIPs would be maybe the tiniest subset of owners, I'm not sure that's still the case. I see lots of folks on Facebook who started out with one retail contract, got wise, and bought more resale. I would guess they outnumber the resale-only owners, and they may even outnumber the VIP hybrids (as the value of resale to many VIPs has dropped since 2021).

All I can tell you is that every few months I see an exchange in a Facebook group where someone is asking about what it's like to add resale points to their existing ownership, and one response will say "You'll have to choose between resale and retail on every reservation" and another response will say "What do you mean? I've never had to choose" and the first will say "You don't know what you're talking about, I have to choose every time" and I'm sure I've seen a variation of that exchange in the last 6 months or so, which is an indication that hybrid non-VIPs aren't shown their buckets, at least not when booking.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Sorry, this just smells to me like the issues we had with guest certificates. It was policy to round up when getting our allotment. Then they started truncating to determine your allotment - but if you called they'd fix it (for 2 or 3 years). But now it's policy to truncate.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Sorry, this just smells to me like the issues we had with guest certificates. It was policy to round up when getting our allotment. Then they started truncating to determine your allotment - but if you called they'd fix it (for 2 or 3 years). But now it's policy to truncate.

Pretty much.

 

[CO skier]

Sorry, this just smells to me like the issues we had with guest certificates. It was policy to round up when getting our allotment. Then they started truncating to determine your allotment - but if you called they'd fix it (for 2 or 3 years). But now it's policy to truncate.

Except that the HK calculation policy has been in place since resale and developer points were divided into separate buckets in 2021. It is nothing new, and it seems to be what Wyndham intended, since that is what they have been saying since then and that is what was programmed at that time. Wyndham could change the policy and combine resale and developer points owned for calculating HK awards. Until then, it does not appear to be a programming error to be fixed.

 

[WManning]

Except that the HK calculation policy has been in place since resale and developer points were divided into separate buckets in 2021. It is nothing new, and it seems to be what Wyndham intended, since that is what they have been saying since then and that is what was programmed at that time. Wyndham could change the policy and combine resale and developer points owned for calculating HK awards. Until then, it does not appear to be a programming error to be fixed.

Policies or is it in writing in the membership directory? Remember the days Wyndham ignored what was clearly written in membership directory?

 

[CO skier]

Policies or is it in writing in the membership directory?

These are not mutually exclusive (as you suggest by asking an "or" question, and some want to believe); i.e., there is nothing in the Club Wyndham Vacation Ownership Agreement that states anything close to, "Every policy of the Club must be written into the Club Membership Directory".

Review the last paragraph in post #37.

 

[paxsarah]

All I can tell you is that every few months I see an exchange in a Facebook group where someone is asking about what it's like to add resale points to their existing ownership, and one response will say "You'll have to choose between resale and retail on every reservation" and another response will say "What do you mean? I've never had to choose" and the first will say "You don't know what you're talking about, I have to choose every time" and I'm sure I've seen a variation of that exchange in the last 6 months or so, which is an indication that hybrid non-VIPs aren't shown their buckets, at least not when booking.

Days since this exchange happened: 0

 

[Sandy VDH]

I have the drop down, I am VIP, so I can attest to that. Thankfully I have unlimited HK so I don't worry about that either.

But having 1 developer contract will give them WM CP access if they are interested. Is that worth the price of 1 HK token. I have a separate WM account, so I don't bother with CP via wyndham.