PA state troopers called - vacation home trashed [merged]

[Karen G]

The new plans sound wonderful. Do you have any added security features to keep vandals away in the future?

 

[pacodemountainside]

One thing to keep in mind is insurance companies almost always insist on a subrogation release which means you give them all rights to sue who ever.

If you have losses not covered by insurance you can sue, but will probably cost a couple thousand + up front which you probably cannot recover. Based on chasing dead beat tenants collecting from irresponsible people is a losing battle.

You also want to keep receipts, estimates, documentation, etc. so you can go for tax loss! Won't be a big amount, but it all helps!

 

[VivianLynne]

The new plans sound wonderful. Do you have any added security features to keep vandals away in the future?

In my home area, Comcast is beginning to advertise their NEW security monitoring program. $500 for the free equipment - think I will investigate that. (I don't remember who is the cable company - it used to be Blue Ridge years ago). Or if FIOS is in that area.

Of course, ADT has the SAT-Phone security systems.

 

[Zac495]

So sorry for this senseless act. I'm in PA - been to that area when I used to ski.
Any update on the kids/parents and criminal proceedings/restitution?
Ellen

 

[VivianLynne]

Another work week in the Poconos. The new porcelain tile floor was put down in the bath (very good pattern following), kitchen (not as good as bath and only one meltdown by mechanic), laundry closet (I followed the KISS principle with a stacked pattern), and foyer (where he followed the 'he had enough' meltdown).

Word of advice: do not try to find black ABS plastic pipe in that area. After 15+ plumbing and supply stores telling me in PA and NJ, it was "not code" - I found enough fittings at Lowe's near Mt Pocono. One supply house in Blairstown, NJ told me "I have watched it (black ABS) out on the racks in the parking lot just about bend into a loop." I told him, "Isn't plumbling pipe usually buried in dirt or in basements - far away from the sun?". Then, he said the sun makes it brittle. Duh? Thru the dirt or the interior walls?

Decided to give up on wood interior windows. Most larger windows are now egress'ed sized which are too big for older openings and I would have to cut sliding and reframe headers and jacks or too small designed for placement under furniture. Will order local vinyl replacements for next trip.

On May 17, Home Depot started a 20% off sale of my selected kitchen cabinets. Will order those - 2 week delivery early this week.

Finished the two coats of paint on LR/DR ceilings. Finished one coat on walls in LR and 1 bdr. All the walls are now patched and getting the last coat of mud before we left on Friday.

Next trip is June 4th - windows to be installed. Install new bathtub and tile tub surround - different pattern, but same tile family. Install new kitchen cabinets. Pickup interior doors and trim for staining and varnishing. Start looking for hardwood floor in LR and kitchen countertop material. Paint 2nd bedroom. Contractor wants a working bathroom.

Wonder what his plan is when he discovers "NO AIR CONDITIONING"?

 

[Karen G]

Wow, you are making progress. It would be nice to see some before and after pictures when it's all done.

 

[VivianLynne]

Wow, you are making progress. It would be nice to see some before and after pictures when it's all done.

10+ hour days at the house - bringing/eating lunch at the house. 30 minutes travel each way from Shawnee. He leaves Shawnee around 6:20AM - getting a takeout breakfast on route. I go to Home Depot /Lowes on the way, but leaving an hour later and calling him for any other material items he found he needed. By the time I get to the house, he has decided what he needs my help on and what exacting he is doing for the day.

We both have pickup trucks and he has done work for me for almost 10 years. His wife works rotating shift work; hence, the every 3 week trip coincides with her day shift. His daughter is getting married in Sept and this is helping with his expenses (the overtime/not home pay).

 

[VivianLynne]

Drove up and back to the Poconos yesterday. The purpose was to ORDER the new kitchen cabinets at Home Depot as they have a 20% on the "in-stock" or rapid express ordered cabinets til 5/30. Total for JUST cabinets were $1949 minus a few pennies. Counter top and installation not included.

Got to also meet the current PA State Trooper - from the Criminal Investigation squad. He toured the house, took photos of newly unearthed "wall" art (2 hearts in red with a girl's name inside), and ask for my insurance adjustor's name and contact info. He said the investigation is moving along, but did tell me that this level of crimeral activity is a Felony on a couple of counts.

Cabinets arrive in 2 weeks.

 

[VivianLynne]

Opinions asked for on the Punishment for the Teenage Vandals

I truly do NOT know who these suspects are - I have no names or addresses (but one lives around the cornor from my house). There are currently 4 persons who are "persons of interest" - 2 who are 18, several who are girls. One or more who have sports scholarships for college and are going away from home for college this Fall.

I am so angry about the issue that I don't want it to color what a prudent person would feel is a "fair and reasonable" punishment.

Yes, I am familiar with Pre-trial Invention to avoid a Felon record. I am also familiar with spoiled, bored teenagers who believe they are "special". As it seems that there are lawyers involved for all, these spin doctors are keeping the suspects from talking .... but there an eye witness with license tag, physical ATM card resceipts found in my house, and admitances of "Yes, I was there but no damage was done by ME".

Damage will be close to $45,000 for the house and $35,000 for the soft-goods inside, plus or minus 15% for an 864 sq ft furnished house.

My question is: What are your "unemotionally involved" opinions on punishments?

 

[presley]

If they are normally good kids, I'd have them work off the $45K or let their parents pay it. Otherwise, jail time + community service would be fair.

 

[VivianLynne]

If they are normally good kids, I'd have them work off the $45K or let their parents pay it. Otherwise, jail time + community service would be fair.

It is $45K plus $35K plus costs for housing & transportation while I am in the area (I didn't have the "can't live in the house' rider).

 

[geekette]

This is criminal behavior. This was not some accident, oops, hit a baseball through your window stuff, this is willful destruction on a large scale. A slap on the wrist will not suffice.

I don't care what age they are nor how "good" they may have been perceived to be, I say financial restitution and jail time. Too bad they didn't help clean up, I'd have let them off with community service + $.

I don't care if they have scholarships, either. Perhaps they should have considered their bright futures before blowing it away on your house. can't see how they would be the kind of person any university would be proud of.

Actions have consequences. Bad actions almost always have undesired consequences. So be it.

They will probably learn about guilt by association as well.

 

[ricoba]

I thought you had said in the initial post that the cop said this was felony behavior. If so, then it is criminal behavior that needs to be dealt with by the courts. As geekette says, actions have consequences. These young people have to pay the price for their actions.

 

[TUGBrian]

agreed...im all about forgiveness for dumb mistakes....this however was deliberate.

 

[Zac495]

If you forgive them, they will move on to the next person. It was deliberate. It will be interesting at the punishment hearing... it's possible a couple of them were less involved - who knows. Let us know.

 

[SOS8260456]

I really hope that this did not happen in Luzerne County. A few years ago kids were being put in detention halls for just throwing a rock. Luzerne County is where the Kids for Cash scandal took place and now leniency is the name of the game.

I also hope they all get charged as adults and I don't think just paying money will sink in with these kids. Mom and Dad will probably just pay it. I also hope that the scholarships have to be forfieted because stuff like that should only go to students who contribute to society not try to destroy it.

This was willful destruction that they are not even willing to own up to. Apologies should have been made, remorse shown in the form of helping with the clean up should have occured. I don't like to see kids go to jail, or pay taxes to house and feed them. I think house arrest for a minimum of one year with the parents paying for the monitoring equipment and maintenance.

Sadly, I just spoke with my husband who deals with pre sentencing and it sounds like they will probably just get a slap on the wrist especially in this whole general area where the judges are super concerned with the childrens rights since they have just cleared out the judges who were just putting kids away and taking kickbacks for it.

So sorry you have to go through all this.

 

[Egret1986]

You have every right to be very, very angry.

I am so angry about the issue that I don't want it to color what a prudent person would feel is a "fair and reasonable" punishment.

This was a deliberate criminal act. Obviously, the courts will determine their fate. As someone said, if they just get a little slap on the wrist, they could very well shrug off this incident and move on to another victim.

Full restitution absolutely, but the dollar amount will never compensate you for what these people have put you through. They need a punishment that will let them know this is totally unacceptable behavior and give them pause to think next time. It's all about making choices. They made this one. If they don't get to go to college and lose their scholarships that is on them, not you.

 

[pranas]

I truly do NOT know who these suspects are - I have no names or addresses (but one lives around the cornor from my house). There are currently 4 persons who are "persons of interest" - 2 who are 18, several who are girls. One or more who have sports scholarships for college and are going away from home for college this Fall.

I am so angry about the issue that I don't want it to color what a prudent person would feel is a "fair and reasonable" punishment.

Yes, I am familiar with Pre-trial Invention to avoid a Felon record. I am also familiar with spoiled, bored teenagers who believe they are "special". As it seems that there are lawyers involved for all, these spin doctors are keeping the suspects from talking .... but there an eye witness with license tag, physical ATM card resceipts found in my house, and admitances of "Yes, I was there but no damage was done by ME".

Damage will be close to $45,000 for the house and $35,000 for the soft-goods inside, plus or minus 15% for an 864 sq ft furnished house.

My question is: What are your "unemotionally involved" opinions on punishments?

I would push fro the harhest punishment possible. Make them pay for the damages.

 

[stmartinfan]

Just thought I'd add a counter viewpoint here, since most others seem to be taking the hard line approach. I don't know the kids involved and whether this is just one action or a pattern of deliberate misbehavior. But as the parent of young adults, I've been reading with interest some of the research about how the wiring in people's brains changes as they mature - often not until into the 20s. Until that happens there are structural issues that get in the way of the local, rational, responsible behavior we want to expect of them. So they are impulsive, act irresponsibly, get led by others into stupid actions, etc. Of course, not all teens, but many.

We have a clear example of this in our family. A young relative at 18 committed a similar act of vandalism against a family member's home in a fit of anger, and while hanging with some also irresponsible peers. I'm not going to share the long story, but there were some issues of drug and alcohol use, a breakdown in the family connection, learning disabilities, etc. The result was he ended up serving jail time. He's now in his 30s, has matured into a responsible young man, who leads a decent life and has been forgiven by the family. However, he doesn't have any further education, since he was jailed during his early 20s,. He's willing to work hard, but lost a several year job because he couldn't get bonded due to his criminal record, and now has found it very difficult to get another one. It was hard to hear about what he'd done, but it's also hard to know that he is now stuck because of a irresponsible act when he was 18. Would he have turned his life around with the jail time? I don't know, but I suspect that he would have figured it out. And now there's another unemployed person, not able to contribute financial to his family, pay taxes, and not be a drain on our system.

 

[pjrose]

This is up to the DA and courts, not you. However, to protect your interests, you should get an attorney, b/c the DA may not do as much on your behalf.

From your perspective, you must get full restitution including your legal and travel costs. This is not negotiable. This may or may not be payable by the parents' liability or umbrella insurance, if they have it, but that's their problem, not yours. Can be payable over a reasonable time - e.g. two years maybe. It's the parents' decision how they handle their kids' debt; if it was my kid, I'd pay it and make my kid pay me back 50% of earnings from a part time job until it's paid off.

As far as the kids' punishment, it depends on whether they have any kind of record. If they don't, then their attorneys and the DA will likely work out ARD, which will involve some combination of restitution, fines, court costs, community service, classes if appropriate (e.g. anger management or substance abuse), and probation (likely a year). The community service must not be fun (e.g. not helping walk dogs at the shelter). Clean up graffiti, build houses for the needy, pick up road litter, etc. When all those are complete, if the kids have kept out of trouble for that length of time, the record would be expunged. It would likely be harsher for those over than under 18.

If they DO have a record, then the DA and your lawyer should go for something harsher - perhaps not jail time, but likely not expungement. Why do I say not jail time? Because being in jail will likely make them worse than they are, given what and who they'll be exposed to.

Let me add that I have been there, as victim, as parent of victim, and and parent of kid-who-screwed-up, and am now somewhat familiar with the process in PA. None of my experiences were nearly as severe financially as yours.....but I have learned a bit more than I wanted to about the system. Feel free to email me (don't PM, my PM box is full.)

PJ

 

[Passepartout]

Hard to say, not knowing what the options are in Pennsylvania. Here, we have what's called 'Withheld Judgement' for underage felons. Restitution for the damage caused is required, then the court maintains jurisdiction over the young people for several years- say until they are 25 or a set number of years, 10 for instance. As long as the young person stays clear of the law for that duration, the criminal activity they participated in as a juvenile is sealed. If they fall into a life of criminal activity during the time the court has jurisdiction over them, a maximum penalty is automatically instituted.

It supposes that many youths have participated in illegal activities that involved property damage (no personal injury or death), and that if encouraged they can be valuable members of society without being a drag on society or the taxpayers.

Hope the prosecutors can come up with a fair solution for all, and that Vivian can get restitution.

Jim

 

[Sea Six]

I would push fro the harhest punishment possible. Make them pay for the damages.

Covering the cost of the damage is not enough. A punitive amount should also be imposed. Treble comes to mind.

 

[gpurtz]

I think I'd have to link the penalty to the degree of involvement. Those who actively participated in the destruction of your property should be dealt with as harshly as possible. Those who did not destroy any of your property but did nothing to stop those who did might be dealt with less harshly. I might consider leniency for those who were there but left rather than participate in the destruction. Given the level of destruction, these perps (sorry, I'm not going to call these hooligans kids), are felons and should be treated as such. Should a parent ask for a break for his/her hooligan, tell them you'll consider the request if they allow you to do their property what their hooligan did to yours. I believe teenagers and young adults can make mistakes because they simply fail to appreciate the consequences of their judgment and actions. That is not what happened to you. These hooligans understood and just didn't give a damn.

 

[Mel]

They should each be required to name names - if they didn't do it, they must know who did. And even if they did not destroy your property, they had to know they were trespassing.

The amount of damage does appear to be in the range for felony charges, and in many places, those cannot be expunged from the record - that's reserved for lesser crimes.

Judgement should be made against ALL of them personally for restitution - not 1/4 or an equal share to each, but all shared among them. If one doesn't pay her share, it would have to be paid by the others, not lost to you (or your insurance company).

If they want to deal, I would push for something that goes on their permanent record, even if it is a lesser punishment, as opposed to a harsher punishment, but the possiblity of sealing the records - something for which the colleges will have to be made aware.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Just thought I'd add a counter viewpoint here, since most others seem to be taking the hard line approach. I don't know the kids involved and whether this is just one action or a pattern of deliberate misbehavior. But as the parent of young adults, I've been reading with interest some of the research about how the wiring in people's brains changes as they mature - often not until into the 20s. Until that happens there are structural issues that get in the way of the local, rational, responsible behavior we want to expect of them. So they are impulsive, act irresponsibly, get led by others into stupid actions, etc. Of course, not all teens, but many.

We have a clear example of this in our family. A young relative at 18 committed a similar act of vandalism against a family member's home in a fit of anger, and while hanging with some also irresponsible peers. [snipped for brevity]

I understand this totally. This almost describes to a T several members in my family.

That being said, I would say that your first paragraph simply rationalizes the behavior. And I am 100% certain my nieces and nephews would agree.

Yeah - they've had tougher lives because of what they did. But they are the first to say that if they hadn't been forced to face up to the consequences of what they did they wouldn't have wound up where they are today.

******

In a parallel example, some people's brains are wired so that they cannot handle alcohol. As a result they do stupid things that hurt other people.

I don't believe that we should hold those people any less accountable for what they do as a result of their idiosyncratic neural wiring. In the same vein I don't believe that we should hold young adults any less accountable because they may have some quirky neural wiring.

*******

It's just simply not an excuse. When you are an adult you are responsible for the consequences of your actions. End of story.

The only exceptions I can see are those where that might involve greatly diminished mental capacity or some other extraordinary circumstance.