Open Letter to Marriott

[Y-ASK]

Y-ask,
We never mention MF's in the letter at all, again, like SueDon we have no issue whatsoever with resale owners in fact we have a resale week as well as our 2 developer weeks. The issue that we have is that we were sold a bill of sale that is no longer available. The only reason that we purchased developer instead of resale was for the option of MRP's. Since this is case you have definitely taken the purpose of this letter out of context.

It's late and I'm probably too grumpy to respond so tomorrow is always another day ...

Y-ASK

 

[Pit]

... it's just one little thing that bothers me.

Why does that bother you?

 

[taffy19]

As someone who's been a target of a TUG high-tech lynching I feel for Marriott - level headed folks get caught up in the hysteria.

I feel partially responsible since I spent 2 months cooking up every backstabbing, underhanded, and despicable tactic Marriott could foist upon us with their new system.

I am happy to report that Marriott ignored my comments and gave us a VERY owner friendly Point exchange system. If you bought resale, like I did, your only decision should be "do I enroll before lunch or after lunch?". I'm serious.

I just spent 40 hours putting together a 40 slide PowerPoint presentation which I am presenting tonight, Thursday June 24, 2010 at 8 PM CDT, at my Webinar. I've spent 10+ hours on the phone with the Marriott folks, getting wrong answers, bad answers, and many "let me know when you find out" answers.

I still have spots open and the Webinar is FREE and I won't be selling you anything nor hawking your eMail address.

If you want a 1 hour, top to bottom, analysis of the new Marriott Point system just send an eMail to PerryM@Yahoo.com with the subject Marriott Webinar and I'll enroll you and the Webinar will contact you and tell you how Webinars work.

So this is my way of setting the record straight - sadly some here would rather spend time with a lynch mob - I've now atoned for my sins and its up to you. I'm spending the rest of the day practicing so I won't be responding to this thread for a while.

You did a good job as I listened to your session. It was very clear and easy to understand but with a lot of material covered. I will listen again next week.

 

[SueDonJ]

Why does that bother you?

For the reason I said: "it was a known, tangible, clearly-stated difference that Marriott relied upon for enticement. Now they've removed it ..."

 

[Pit]

For the reason I said: "it was a known, tangible, clearly-stated difference that Marriott relied upon for enticement. Now they've removed it ..."

But you still have that option, right? What difference does it make to you how they entice people? Now they can entice people with their points offering instead, since future resales are excluded.

 

[potchak]

Because there was a premium paid for that enticement that now everyone including resale owners will have. Marriott sold us units for anywhere from 30-60% more than resale with the tool that we can trade for MRP's. Now, even resale owners by paying $1500-2000 can have all their units available for MRP's. It is an ethical issue that they have completely screwed the developer purchased weeks.

 

[Y-ASK]

Now we have the new points system introduced. For only $1,995 anyone that purchase resale can now trade their unit into the Marriott rewards program.

I'm very disappointed in Marriott for pushing this advantage in sales for years just to allow everyone else have that advantage we paid a lot of money for, for so little. I would have thought that a company like Marriott would have done more to protect the loyalty of their customers. In three short years I have seen time and again the let down by Marriott to keep our loyalty.
1. Reduced Marriott Rewards Points program for airfare and hotels
2. Seems to have suspended to diminished ROFR causing the delta between our purchase price and resale to increase
3. Started a points system that does not provide equal point value between unit traded in verses unit reserved by points
4. Little barrier of entry for non-Marriott direct purchasers to get into Marriott Rewards program for their units

The properties are fantastic but the program has continued to diminish in value at an alarming rate. I would ask that you please do a better job at making our Marriott Vacation Club experience a success not just at the resort but also in the way the program is administered. Simple ideas would be to give owners that bought directly from Marriott a 30% increase in point allotments each year to match the additional initial purchase they paid, or to grant one time bonuses of points and give them a higher priority for reserving units. Some value more than pay us $1,995 and now everyone is equal in the eyes of Marriott.

I look forward to hearing your ideas on value and how our loyalty to Marriott has been rewarded. Perhaps I'm missing something and we are not taking full advantage of what we purchased. Thank you.

Sincerely,
XXXXXXX

I really don't want to pick apart this letter sentence by sentence but what I've highlighted and the overall tone is directed solely at resale purchasers and how they should not be treated equal. Of course you didn't mention anything about Maintenace Fees because your arguement falls apart at that point in time. It's the whole us "Developer Owners" against those "Resale Owners" BS that offends me and the fact that you are trying to get Marriott to treat resale owners as scum that should be barely tolerated. Is that how you would look at and treat someone who purchased, via resale, a house next to you in your neighborhood?

It was I who felt the need to point out that without resale owners you'd never be able to sell your property nor would you be able to afford your maintenance fees after many owners refused to pay theirs and yours skyrocketed up. When you actually get to the point where it bothers you enough to send a letter asking Marriott to treat other owners differently, then I reach a point where I need to say "Stop counting other people's money!" It's the frugal people in this world that pay their bills on time and don't buy large houses they can't afford or timeshares at full price.

I will never call anyone dumb for paying full price because it is none of my buisness what you paid. And if I were a owner who purchased from the developer and that developer wanted to treat any potential resale buyer as second class and restrict them in some way I would be pissed off because it devalues my purchased property value as soon as I walk out the door. You never know, you might need to sell that property one day...

Y-ASK

 

[potchak]

I will never call anyone dumb for paying full price because it is none of my buisness what you paid. And if I were a owner who purchased from the developer and that developer wanted to treat any potential resale buyer as second class and restrict them in some way I would be pissed off because it devalues my purchased property value as soon as I walk out the door. You never know, you might need to sell that property one day...

Y-ASK

Up until this new points program, resale owners were treated differently! Period.

However, I will not harp on the fact that you think we are resale bashing- we are not. We simply want Marriott to recognize that they have screwed all retail buyers.

Now, if you don't mind, we should probably get back to the main purpose of this thread which was to post letters sent to Marriott. If you would like to continue this debate I will be happy to do so via private message.

I suggest to the moderators to remove any commentary on the letters themselves as that was not the purpose of this thread.

 

[ArtsieAng]

Y-ASK

I really don't want to pick apart this letter sentence by sentence but what I've highlighted and the overall tone is directed solely at resale purchasers and how they should not be treated equal.

Hmmmm, for 25 years Marriott has been preaching how resale owners are NOT treated equally by them. Those that have purchased directly from Marriott (such as myself) have literally paid ten's of thousands of dollars more for the exact same product as those who purchased resale, based on getting those extra benefits.

Now, Marriott has suddenly decided to change their mind, and for a small entry fee, allow all resale owners the benefits that other's most likely paid 20+ thousand dollars additional to receive.

My opinion........You got a gift! Be happy. Be very, very happy, but stop expecting those that paid much, much, more than you based on what Marriott told them not to have a reaction to Marriott's decision.

I haven't seen anyone here saying that Marriott should be treating resale owners as "scum," that's just silly.

Even if you purchased resale, do you not expect Marriott to give you in return the correct number of points for what you purchased? If you bought a prime ski week resale, and paid more than other resale weeks, do you not expect Marriott to recognize that fact?

Well, I think that's what some that purchased directly from Marriott might also want. They paid ten's of thousands of dollars to Marriott for something that has now gone up in smoke. Please try and understand that.

 

[Y-ASK]

Up until this new points program, resale owners were treated differently! Period.

Exactly and your resale values have suffered because of it. Maybe your efforts should been writing letters at the time this happened and pointing this fact out to Marriott.

I really don't think the mods need to worry about removing any comments from this thread. The thread is about open letters to Marriott and the comments they may generate. It appears that we will just have to agree to disagree which is fine by me. I will drop it at your request unless other comments are made that need to be addressed.


Y-ASK

 

[Y-ASK]

I haven't seen anyone here saying that Marriott should be treating resale owners as "scum," that's just silly.

Yep! It was probably over the top and silly. I just couldn't think of a better word at the time. At the request of potchak I'll just drop it at this time.

Y-ASK

 

[timeos2]

Buy to get best value for dollar not to punish others that did

Because there was a premium paid for that enticement that now everyone including resale owners will have. Marriott sold us units for anywhere from 30-60% more than resale with the tool that we can trade for MRP's. Now, even resale owners by paying $1500-2000 can have all their units available for MRP's. It is an ethical issue that they have completely screwed the developer purchased weeks.

You have come across one of ever present issues of sales. Whenever things are given false value based on peripheral, non-guaranteed "perks" (they may be called VIP or enhancements or preferred owners package, whatever) those items are not a true part of the deal and have no actual value. You'll find them covered in disclaimers and outs about "programs subject to change", etc and warnings that they are not transferable nor do they make up part of the ownership as they are strictly voluntary perks being dangled to help spur the sale. Basing your value to be derived in any part on those non-guaranteed benefits is a serious mistake. A very common one - these things are meant to sway you to buy overpriced product - but a mistake none the less. Those things are mere add-ons that can be offered or discontinued at any time, so depending on them to recover your value almost always means disappointment. The "benefits" are fleeting but the money paid is most assuredly gone.

Always look to pay the least for the base, non-revocable rights in the resort/system to glean the most value out. Almost always that means buying those base rights via resale. Looking to justify high retail pricing by "punishing" those that buy at a more effective price/benefit way (resale) is almost always going to end up costing the retail buyer and leaving them feeling taken at a minimum. Rather than looking to punish those that found a better way to buy get the satisfaction of a good deal from making an informed choice yourself.

 

[SueDonJ]

It really is difficult to not feel like you're being insulted when folks make distinctions between developer-direct and external resale buyers, isn't it? I completely understand how this could make a resale buyer think twice, because I've been made to feel that way at times when the tables are turned. Y-ASK, I really hope we can manage to make you feel that you're not being insulted here.

I've written snail mail letters to Marriott/MVCI execs on a few different occasions over the years, and actually have mentioned that I appreciate they've been able to reward developer purchasers with the MRP-exchange option even though I haven't once used it. I've said that while I understand it will never equate to the dollars that could be saved on the external resale market, it is nice to be recognized as a valued direct customer. (Nobody's ever responded to that little blurb but my main points in those letters have been addressed, and I was happy knowing that the point was at least heard.)

Now it feels as though Marriott has taken away that very small distinction that THEY made between direct and resale purchasers. It's not a distinction that I've ever demanded should be made, and it doesn't matter to me one bit how the other owners of any MVCI weeks made their purchase. If you think about it, there are discrepancies between developer purchasers in the amounts they've paid to Marriott just as there are between the amounts resale purchasers paid to their individual sellers. This isn't about how much somebody paid as compared to someone else. It is about Marriott removing the one distinguishing "reward" that they offered to their direct customers.

I don't know any other way to try to explain it, and I really hope that this helps to remove whatever insult resale purchasers might be feeling. Absolutely none is intended.

 

[Pit]

Well, I think that's what some that purchased directly from Marriott might also want. They paid ten's of thousands of dollars to Marriott for something that has now gone up in smoke. Please try and understand that.

This is a statement I don't understand. What, exactly, have retail buyers lost ("gone up in smoke") that they paid so much for? They still have the MRP-exchange option.

 

[hotcoffee]

Now it feels as though Marriott has taken away that very small distinction that THEY made between direct and resale purchasers. It's not a distinction that I've ever demanded should be made, and it doesn't matter to me one bit how the other owners of any MVCI weeks made their purchase. If you think about it, there are discrepancies between developer purchasers in the amounts they've paid to Marriott just as there are between the amounts resale purchasers paid to their individual sellers. This isn't about how much somebody paid as compared to someone else. It is about Marriott removing the one distinguishing "reward" that they offered to their direct customers.

It obviously was a business case issue for them. In implementing this new program, they need as much initial inventory as they can get. So, they give a window of oportunity to existing resale owners to join; and I think once many of them see they are being given a pretty good deal, many will join. Moreover, I think it is a mistake on Marriott's part to end the window of opportunity at December 31. From a business viewpoint, why would they not want to have the inventory of new resale owners? It makes no business sense to shut out valuable inventory from the points trading system. For this reason, I suspect that Marriott will at some point try to come up with a way to capture the lossed resale inventory into the points program. It may frustrate developer purchasers, but it makes good business sense for Marriott.

 

[DanCali]

It obviously was a business case issue for them. In implementing this new program, they need as much initial inventory as they can get. So, they give a window of oportunity to existing resale owners to join; and I think once many of them see they are being given a pretty good deal, many will join. Moreover, I think it is a mistake on Marriott's part to end the window of opportunity at December 31. From a business viewpoint, why would they not want to have the inventory of new resale owners? It makes no business sense to shut out valuable inventory from the points trading system. For this reason, I suspect that Marriott will at some point try to come up with a way to capture the lossed resale inventory into the points program. It may frustrate developer purchasers, but it makes good business sense for Marriott.

Many people will join out of fear or because they feel trapped, not because it is a good deal.

Now before you ask why would anyone feel trapped let me answer that...

You can try to seel your units, but then you'll never be back with Marriott since it appears future week resales are excluded,and no resale buyer will pay $9/point.

So that leaves joining or not... If you don't join, you lost home resort priority and II inventory will decrease substantially.

So what's left...? Join... or sell at a loss and never come back.

But what is a good deal about loss of voting rights, no like for like exchanges, no ability to lock off, higher fees in the form of skimming and hidden lockoff fees, and Marriott having the ability to change any rule at any time?

 

[ArtsieAng]

This is a statement I don't understand. What, exactly, have retail buyers lost ("gone up in smoke") that they paid so much for? They still have the MRP-exchange option.

Yes, the still do, but now, so do resale owners.

 

[Pit]

Yes, the still do, but now, so do resale owners.

So, it was the exclusivity of the option that was worth so much?

 

[DanCali]

Because there was a premium paid for that enticement that now everyone including resale owners will have. Marriott sold us units for anywhere from 30-60% more than resale with the tool that we can trade for MRP's. Now, even resale owners by paying $1500-2000 can have all their units available for MRP's. It is an ethical issue that they have completely screwed the developer purchased weeks.

No, Marriott sold you a unit with 30%-60% premium so they can pay a fat commissions to a salesperson. Where do you think that commission is paid from? They told you it was for MRP conversion.... Paying MFs for MRPs when you canbuy them from Marriott at a similar price has little value (in fact, Marriott just told us that value is $1300).

 

[dioxide45]

The convert to Marriott Rewards point always was a sales tool and nothing more. It was there to entice people to buy direct. Now it is being used as a sales took again to get resale buyers to enroll.

 

[icydog]

You said it so well

Greg T's post shows again that TUG members are reacting negatively without understanding the new program as it relates to existing owners IT IS AN ADDITIONAL EXCHANGE PROGRAM for us. They are taking nothing away from us. I have similar characteristics to Greg T--Marriott Gold, future Platinum, and I also own two weeks at Lahaina Tower in Maui, plus three other weeks with Marriott.

The new program is great for Hawaii owners if they want to trade their unit. (If they don't, nothing changes.) Why? Because under the current system a Maui owner, for example, could never get fair value in a trade. They could only get a week and there was no guarantee of view. If I wanted to trade Maui for Ko Olina, I might get mountain view. This has been corrected.

I have been very critical of the recent Marriott Rewards changes and have complained about a lot of things that have changed with MVCI, but this is a real positive change. I plan to join, but probably not use it a lot. I like to stay where we bought. Even in this case, however, I will save a ton in fees (Interval, lockoff, trade for points, changes, etc.) every year.

This new program might not help all current owners, but it cannot hurt, the way I see it.

Boca Boy,
I wish you would start a new thread with just this post. I think it will help calm people down. Folks do not understand that they do NOT have to swap their week for club points if they do not wish to. They can continue to use their weeks in the same way as they always have if they want.

I too recognize the benefit in costs for II for Lock offs, for trades, for redeposits, for turning your week in for Marriott Reward Points. All these fees add up to a lot of $.. I think the new program will pay for itself in the long run. Especially for developer owners.

I am not a developer owner and bought into the program for the reasons above plus it gives me the ability to change my week for Marriott Reward Points every other year.. That is something I could not do with my resell weeks before and a perk I really like.

To the OP..

You compare Hilton to Marriott but Hilton was already a point system. They built in the breakage. Marriott had to start again in a system that already existed. I think if you look at a Hilton Week you will see the points for the weekends are VERY VERY High. That more than accounts for the difference in points or the skimming you mentioned.

 

[DanCali]

Boca Boy,
I wish you would start a new thread with just this post. I think it will help calm people down. Folks do not understand that they do NOT have to swap their week for club points if they do not wish to. They can continue to use their weeks in the same way as they always have if they want.

I too recognize the benefit in costs for II for Lock offs, for trades, for redeposits, for turning your week in for Marriott Reward Points. All these fees add up to a lot of $.. I think the new program will pay for itself in the long run. Especially for developer owners.

Let's wait to see how II works for weeks owners before we say you can't lose anything...

And paying $1500 + $200 a year increases MFs by 20%, especially if your attitude is I'll use my weeks and enroll because I have nothing to lose.

But if you don't enrolll and just keep using weeks,do you think you'll get the same inventory in II? Or did we lose something after all? And we did and now we have to join, then the costs of skimming apply, so did we lose something now?

It is not "breakage" if Marriott turns around and sells the points to owners for a profit. It is skimming/stealing (MO, of course).

 

[jerseygirl]

You compare Hilton to Marriott but Hilton was already a point system. They built in the breakage. Marriott had to start again in a system that already existed. I think if you look at a Hilton Week you will see the points for the weekends are VERY VERY High. That more than accounts for the difference in points or the skimming you mentioned.

Marylyn --You may be correct that Hilton started as a point system (I don't know the history -- certainly the affiliates started as weeks systems), but it's very comparable to Marriott's "legacy" system in that all members own a specific deeded week. One cannot simply decide to buy 1000 (or 5000) points. Yes, weekends are higher, percentage-wise, than Marriott is charging for weekends. But, it's not fair to call it "skimming" since points in = points out for all trades. "Skimming" refers to the fact that, in most (all?) cases, even a fixed week owner is not receiving the same number of points for trading out as are required to trade in. You will not find any instances of that in Hilton's, Hyatt's, Starwood's, or DVC's systems.

 

[GregT]

To the OP..

You compare Hilton to Marriott but Hilton was already a point system. They built in the breakage. Marriott had to start again in a system that already existed. I think if you look at a Hilton Week you will see the points for the weekends are VERY VERY High. That more than accounts for the difference in points or the skimming you mentioned.

Good morning,

I definitely agree that Hilton built in the breakage, but they also instituted an Open Season to help absorb that unused inventory (as a benefit to the owner), versus increasing the breakage percentage. I certainly expected weekends in a Marriott Points Program to be higher (much higher) than Sun-Thurs (as they are with my other two point systems) -- on our last trip with Wyndham, we met several couples there that arrived Sunday and departed Friday, a great way to stretch their points.

There is alot about the Marriott system that is very appealing, which makes the skimming a shame, because it is so inconsistent with the other features of the program (and how I viewed Marriott).

As I indicated my original post, this is less an issue for me because Marriott is still offering me lots of points were I to choose to join -- just at a 13.3% discount (and I have really strong fixed prime summer weeks).

But it's really disappointing for the people who owned Platinum that now get the average for their season and now find themselves short 350 points to be able to go where they want to go.

Why the skim? Why solve the breakage question by permanently discounting the value, versus instituting an Open Season?

And it creates the appearance of badwill by Marriott, even if they had perfect legitimate reasons for it, which they've not yet communicated.

Please believe me, I am trying to get over this issue (others I respect have told to me to let it go) but I can't get over what feels like bad faith -- and it feels much more like Wyndham (where we are accustomed to it) than Hilton (where the owners are very devoted).

Frustrating stuff...

Best to all,

Greg

 

[dioxide45]

Marylyn --You may be correct that Hilton started as a point system (I don't know the history -- certainly the affiliates started as weeks systems), but it's very comparable to Marriott's "legacy" system in that all members own a specific deeded week. One cannot simply decide to buy 1000 (or 5000) points. Yes, weekends are higher, percentage-wise, than Marriott is charging for weekends. But, it's not fair to call it "skimming" since points in = points out for all trades. "Skimming" refers to the fact that, in most (all?) cases, even a fixed week owner is not receiving the same number of points for trading out as are required to trade in. You will not find any instances of that in Hilton's, Hyatt's, Starwood's, or DVC's systems.

This isn't true, it isn't as simple as points in equals points out. It costs more to book a studio and a 1BR separately. So if I put in 2000 points with my 2BR, I can't get equal accommodation (a 1BR and a studio) with those same 2000 points.