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OLD/Closed General Discussion Thread: C-19/Hawaii. Will Hawaii re-open Oct. 15th? (+ NEW POLL)

When do you think Hawaii will re-open? (End 14 day quarantine.)


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rickandcindy23

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Hand washing is something I would like to see continue for those who do not regularly wash in public restrooms. What the heck is the deal with that? I am amazed at the people going into a bathroom at Disney, or the airport, or a restaurant, and they are skipping the stop at the sink. It's gross. Wash your hands and use hand sanitizer. Hand sanitizer doesn't replace hand washing.

I have allergies this year, and they usually aren't this bad. My kids keep teasing me that I might have the "Rona." Itchy eyes and nose, sneezing multiple times, even a mild sore throat, but it's not "Rona."

I am excited for our Maui trip in February and have been promised by our doctor that a test for the virus is 24 hours tops.
 

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You've profoundly misinterpreted my comments. I have no idea where you get the idea that I advise against a vaccine, or that I would not get one. Those are both wrong. I am saying it's not the end all to keeping one's "guard up" or with dealing with COVID. We have a vaccine for flu, but we have lots of flu, including in some that are vaccinated. I expect the same with COVID. But I'm all for a 50% or so reduction in risk -- once I know it is safe (benefits significantly outweigh risks) and have some idea of how long it will last (so it has meaningful value). Sadly, there are good indications we may not know either when a vaccine is first released. (Yesterday it was reported that the WH had blocked release of the FDA's new "tougher" standards on approving a vaccine, for instance.)

I'd urge you to read more carefully before attacking one for views not expressed in the post nor even reasonably inferred by it. (My statement, "The keys are developing effective treatments and vaccines to reduce case counts and risk," is not a statement even remotely susceptible to being an anti-vaccine statement.)
Maybe I got the idea from reading your posts? you said for example:
"On of the (many) reasons it takes a long time for a vaccine to get to the market is because they want and need that question answered BEFORE they start injecting people, and the only way to know is to monitor people over a period of several years, both for side effects and efficacy. A vaccine is largely worthless if it is effective for only 60 days, and even more so if you don't KNOW how long it is effective for. That creates long-term INCREASED, not decreased risk of infection due to the false sense of security it creates.

There is little (no) doubt that a COVID vaccine will be approved before it is known how long it lasts. "


I am glad to hear I misunderstood your position and that you are for the vaccination. Funny how you claim you are not against it while casting doubt about the vaccine few sentences later.
 

csodjd

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I am glad to hear I misunderstood your position and that you are for the vaccination. Funny how you claim you are not against it while casting doubt about the vaccine few sentences later.
Casting doubt on a vaccine that has not been adequately tested is very different than casting doubt on vaccines. The political interference with the development of this vaccine is, to my knowledge, unprecedented in modern medicine. Normally the government puts up barriers to ensure, as much as possible, that nothing is approved that should not be approved. They demand more, and then more, testing and results. It takes companies years and many millions to CONVINCE regulators their drug is safe and effective. There is good reason to believe none of that is happening here, and the risks that creates are also unprecedented.
 

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Casting doubt on a vaccine that has not been adequately tested is very different than casting doubt on vaccines. The political interference with the development of this vaccine is, to my knowledge, unprecedented in modern medicine. Normally the government puts up barriers to ensure, as much as possible, that nothing is approved that should not be approved. They demand more, and then more, testing and results. It takes companies years and many millions to CONVINCE regulators their drug is safe and effective. There is good reason to believe none of that is happening here, and the risks that creates are also unprecedented.
I think we were indeed talking about a C-19 vaccine. You can bet many countries will approve them more or less at the same time so let's keep politics out of this. Canada has secured 150 million doses for a population of 38 millions. I am still not sure if you are for or against it. Would you get a vaccine that is approved both in Canada and the US?
 

csodjd

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I think we were indeed talking about a C-19 vaccine. You can bet many countries will approve them more or less at the same time so let's keep politics out of this. Canada has secured 150 million doses for a population of 38 millions. I am still not sure if you are for or against it. Would you get a vaccine that is approved both in Canada and the US?
The FDA, throughout my career going back to 1980, has been the world's preeminent body for ensuring safety and effectiveness of drugs and vaccines. They don't bat 100%, but have historically been more restrictive and protective of the population they serve than other countries in their demand that the drugs be proven safe and effective. There are, as a result, many drugs used in other countries that the FDA has not approved here because the FDA was not convinced (or, in some cases, because the drug company did not feel they could meet FDA standards and never sought FDA approval). Perhaps that's because they must guard against the enormous profit motive that exists in the US for drug companies to "fudge" in their effort to gain entry into the US market. (I was taught from the start to examine papers/studies giving due consideration to who did the study and who funded it, and to exercise greater scrutiny of any study run or funded by the drug company itself.)

Today we find ourselves in a bizarre world where the drug companies are self-imposing stricter standards because THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory authority free from political influence. That is unprecedented. Usually the drug companies are screaming at the FDA for being too demanding, and now they are worried that the FDA won't be demanding enough. The fact is, you cannot keep politics out of it because politics have permeated a process that was largely apolitical before COVID.

Statements like, "Canada has secured 150 million doses for a population of 38 millions" mean nothing to me. Doses of what? Under what criteria for approval and use?

Russia is already vaccinating their people with an "approved" vaccine? Do you trust it? If not, why not? China has a vaccine that's received emergency use authorization there. (https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-beijing-china-archive-f6cd7cb2bbec79234672a1b444d3b6c6) Do you trust it? If not, why not? Should we trust Canada more (or less) than Russia and China? Why or why not?

I want to trust the FDA. That's who WE have trusted for a long time. The current political situation and influence on the FDA is making it hard to do so.

Whatever direction one goes will entail a compromise from ideal.

Thus, for me, in this instance, BECAUSE of the undeniable affect and influence of politics on the US institutions designed to protect us, and the less demanding processes in other countries, I will look at the clinical papers and peer-reviewed study data and outcomes (not necessarily the conclusions) to determine if I am comfortable with a vaccine, and which vaccine. The compromise I will make is in the parenthetical above -- I will compromise my concern about studies done by or funded by the drug companies and will give them more trust than I might have otherwise done.

I think it is also important to keep one more thing in mind. There are several vaccine candidates, and they are different. They use different techniques to induce the immune response. If you jump at the first one approved you may well deny yourself the ability to use an alternative that may well be more effective, last longer, etc. We not only need to know which vaccine works, but which works best. Since I expect that several will receive EUA over a period of several months, I will certainly wait until I see the options.
 

DannyTS

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The FDA, throughout my career going back to 1980, has been the world's preeminent body for ensuring safety and effectiveness of drugs and vaccines. They don't bat 100%, but have historically been more restrictive and protective of the population they serve than other countries in their demand that the drugs be proven safe and effective. There are, as a result, many drugs used in other countries that the FDA has not approved here because the FDA was not convinced (or, in some cases, because the drug company did not feel they could meet FDA standards and never sought FDA approval). Perhaps that's because they must guard against the enormous profit motive that exists in the US for drug companies to "fudge" in their effort to gain entry into the US market. (I was taught from the start to examine papers/studies giving due consideration to who did the study and who funded it, and to exercise greater scrutiny of any study run or funded by the drug company itself.)

Today we find ourselves in a bizarre world where the drug companies are self-imposing stricter standards because THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory authority free from political influence. That is unprecedented. Usually the drug companies are screaming at the FDA for being too demanding, and now they are worried that the FDA won't be demanding enough. The fact is, you cannot keep politics out of it because politics have permeated a process that was largely apolitical before COVID.

Statements like, "Canada has secured 150 million doses for a population of 38 millions" mean nothing to me. Doses of what? Under what criteria for approval and use?

Russia is already vaccinating their people with an "approved" vaccine? Do you trust it? If not, why not? China has a vaccine that's received emergency use authorization there. (https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-beijing-china-archive-f6cd7cb2bbec79234672a1b444d3b6c6) Do you trust it? If not, why not? Should we trust Canada more (or less) than Russia and China? Why or why not?

I want to trust the FDA. That's who WE have trusted for a long time. The current political situation and influence on the FDA is making it hard to do so.

Whatever direction one goes will entail a compromise from ideal.

Thus, for me, in this instance, BECAUSE of the undeniable affect and influence of politics on the US institutions designed to protect us, and the less demanding processes in other countries, I will look at the clinical papers and peer-reviewed study data and outcomes (not necessarily the conclusions) to determine if I am comfortable with a vaccine, and which vaccine. The compromise I will make is in the parenthetical above -- I will compromise my concern about studies done by or funded by the drug companies and will give them more trust than I might have otherwise done.

I think it is also important to keep one more thing in mind. There are several vaccine candidates, and they are different. They use different techniques to induce the immune response. If you jump at the first one approved you may well deny yourself the ability to use an alternative that may well be more effective, last longer, etc. We not only need to know which vaccine works, but which works best. Since I expect that several will receive EUA over a period of several months, I will certainly wait until I see the options.
Canada has secured the doses under the condition that they will be approved by the Canadian regulators. This is why they secured more doses than the population, expecting that not all vaccines (if any) will be approved.

My point is that if you do not trust your own regulators, if one vaccine is approved both in Canada and in the US, would you trust it? Would you get vaccinated? I am not sure why you are talking about Russia, I was talking about Canada and the US, countries with similar (not identical indeed) approval processes.

Again you seem to take a wait and see approach for several months. You probably hope not everyone thinks like you do.
 

1Kflyerguy

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That's only true within reasonable parameters. If it only confers reliable immunity for 6 months, and it takes a year to vaccinate the world, then what? There's been a lot of conflicting data on immunity in those infected with the virus. I'm not sure we should expect a vaccine to provide MORE/longer immunity than the virus itself provides. This is a very complex interface between the artificial and the human immune response. And all that assumes some commonality -- that the immunity will last roughly the same across different people. Say you're taking an immunosuppresive for psoriasis, or IBS, or psoriatic arthritis. Will that diminish the response to a vaccine such that you have less longevity to the immunity? I could ask 1000 questions like that.

Again, this is why it takes a long time for a vaccine to come to market.

Historically i have been a big believer in vaccines, and as a frequent global traveler think i have everything the CDC has recommended for the regions visit, yellow fever, typoid, etc.. Get my flu shot every year, etc..

At the moment i am planning to get a corvid vaccine, but won't decide for certain until one or more is actually approved so i can understand the specifics of that.

My wife is immunosuppressed due to being a transplant recipient, will we have to wait and see what her transplant team says about any vaccine for her, some they encourage and some they recommend against. There are so many candidates right now its not worth discussing with her Doctors, and they may not even have opinions yet.

Personally all i am hoping is that vaccines and better treatments reduce the virus to something less toxic.. and we can all get back to more normal activities.
 

Tamaradarann

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There is no reason why you should not get the vaccine AND keep the guard up if you are referring to your own case. Indeed studies show that people wearing masks maybe less careful because of a perceived sense of safety but that is not a reason to not wear a mask. It is like saying I am not going to wear a seatbelt because I would drive less carefully.
I have not heard one health care official (including Dr. Fauci) saying that people should avoid an approved vaccine. Dr Fauci said he would get it himself. If you are of the view that you should not be vaccinated it is your prerogative but, I am not sure TUG is the place to give that kind of advice to others.

I agree with cosdjd thinking about getting the vaccine. He is NOT advising against getting the vaccine. I am anxiously waiting for a safe, effective and appropriately tested and approved vaccine. However, rushing a vaccine to be approved against medical experts advice leads me to say let those that are pushing for a vaccine to be approved, contrary to medical experts advice, be the guinea pigs to try the vaccine so that they in practicality become part of an extended testing period. We will wait for the results of the extended test.
 

csodjd

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Historically i have been a big believer in vaccines, and as a frequent global traveler think i have everything the CDC has recommended for the regions visit, yellow fever, typoid, etc.. Get my flu shot every year, etc..

At the moment i am planning to get a corvid vaccine, but won't decide for certain until one or more is actually approved so i can understand the specifics of that.

My wife is immunosuppressed due to being a transplant recipient, will we have to wait and see what her transplant team says about any vaccine for her, some they encourage and some they recommend against. There are so many candidates right now its not worth discussing with her Doctors, and they may not even have opinions yet.

Personally all i am hoping is that vaccines and better treatments reduce the virus to something less toxic.. and we can all get back to more normal activities.
We'll get back to more normal. This was a unique virus and unique situation that forced an extreme response. Unique in its wide variability in presentation, its lengthy incubation, its wide variability in course (really, how many things cover the range from no symptoms at all to death?), and our lack of preparation. And, possibly, the fact that it arose in China and not somewhere more forthcoming. All these coalesced to a perfect storm. With so many dying initially the fear of a 5% or even 10% death rate was there, with no treatment and people seemingly getting sick out of nowhere (made worse by a lack of testing).

We're not even one year in yet. But we do now have the power, if not the will, to control its spread. Simple stuff like masks, hand washing, and hopefully soon readily available quick and inexpensive testing. That last part really does open things up. Want the family over for Thanksgiving... everyone test themselves 2 days before, and again just before coming.
 

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My wife is immunosuppressed due to being a transplant recipient, will we have to wait and see what her transplant team says about any vaccine for her, some they encourage and some they recommend against.
Mine is immunosuppressed also. The challenge is that the vaccine may not work because it requires a robust immune response. Because these vaccines are just based on virus fragments I don't think there will be infection risk. Just immune response failure. But I'll defer to the transplant and immunology experts at the end of the day.
 

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DannyTS

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Today we find ourselves in a bizarre world where the drug companies are self-imposing stricter standards because THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory
can you provide backup for this statement?
 

csodjd

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can you provide backup for this statement?
Perhaps you could have spent the 10 seconds to find this instead of challenging me to do it for you. There is, of course, much more. Go find it if you care about it.

 

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Perhaps you could have spent the 10 seconds to find this instead of challenging me to do it for you. There is, of course, much more. Go find it if you care about it.

I do not see the part where "THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory authority free from political influence " or anything of that nature as you stated, so I guess that was your interpretation. This is exactly what I thought.

My interpretation is that they are just responding to the media hype, not that THEY do not trust the FDA. Besides, at any given time, shouldn't these companies only submit for approval drugs that are deemed to be safe?
 
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csodjd

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I do not see the part where "THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory authority free from political influence " or anything of that nature as you stated, so I guess that was your interpretation. This is exactly what I thought.

My interpretation is that they are just responding to the media hype, not that THEY do not trust the FDA. Besides, at any given time, shouldn't these companies only submit for approval drugs that are deemed to be safe?
Interpret as you wish. Your interpretation makes no difference to me.

"Their statement comes as President Trump continues to push for a rapid vaccine approval, repeatedly pointing to late October as a potential approval date. At a press conference on Monday, he said a vaccine authorization could come “before a very special date” — a clear allusion to the Nov. 3 general election. In recent weeks, top U.S. health officials have further damaged the Food and Drug Administration’s reputation for making independent, science-driven decisions. Last month, FDA commissioner Stephen Hahn misrepresented data about the ability of blood plasma from recovered Covid-19 patients to treat the disease after Trump falsely touted the treatment as a breakthrough. Though he issued a partial apology in the ensuing days, he has not fully corrected his misleading remarks. Health secretary Alex Azar, who made a nearly identical false claim that blood plasma could reduce Covid-19 deaths by 35%, has not recanted his remarks."
 

DannyTS

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Interpret as you wish. Your interpretation makes no difference to me.

"Their statement comes as President Trump continues to push for a rapid vaccine approval, repeatedly pointing to late October as a potential approval date. At a press conference on Monday, he said a vaccine authorization could come “before a very special date” — a clear allusion to the Nov. 3 general election. In recent weeks, top U.S. health officials have further damaged the Food and Drug Administration’s reputation for making independent, science-driven decisions. Last month, FDA commissioner Stephen Hahn misrepresented data about the ability of blood plasma from recovered Covid-19 patients to treat the disease after Trump falsely touted the treatment as a breakthrough. Though he issued a partial apology in the ensuing days, he has not fully corrected his misleading remarks. Health secretary Alex Azar, who made a nearly identical false claim that blood plasma could reduce Covid-19 deaths by 35%, has not recanted his remarks."
that is the interpretation of those that wrote the article, there is no mention of what THEY think. Your comments have been full of political innuendo, against the TUG rules.
 

csodjd

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that is the interpretation of those that wrote the article, there is no mention of what THEY think. Your comments have been full of political innuendo, against the TUG rules.
It's amusing. I've had several private messages that you're just trolling, and that you'll be sure to always get the last word in. Personally I found it complimentary that you feel it's necessary to troll me and my comments. Thank you for that. And now your last word is....
 

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It's amusing. I've had several private messages that you're just trolling, and that you'll be sure to always get the last word in. Personally I found it complimentary that you feel it's necessary to troll me and my comments. Thank you for that. And now your last word is....
Not following, what private messages did you have?

I am not trolling you, I just find it amusing that you are digging deeper and deeper in the political arena, which was clear to begin with. You chose to "clarify" your comments.
 

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Latest summary of entry process...

Thanks for posting this and to all: I hope we can continue sharing information without 'attacking' each other or feeling attacked! This is such a valuable space for sharing and helping each other, and I hope we can do this (even if we disagree on some things, do so respectfully/considerately) without any bad energy or bad feelings.

Thanks to all for your time and energy sharing good information!
 

DeniseM

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Time out, boys! This is the HAWAII Forum, not the Vaccine forum!

Any more Vaccine posts will be deleted!
 
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Luanne

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So, the question is can you only have the test done if you’re flying out of DFW? Or are they saying it can be done at DFW even if you’re flying out of another hub?
American Airlines will be offering pre-travel testing at DFW:

 

Luanne

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So, the question is can you only have the test done if you’re flying out of DFW? Or are they saying it can be done at DFW even if you’re flying out of another hub?
I may be confused by your question. Are you asking if your flight originates elsewhere, but you go through DFW on your way to Hawaii can you be tested? I would assume so (and that's just my assumption), but unless you plan a long layover or overnight stay, you might not get the results in time. I notice the article also did not mention how long it will take for results.
 

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I may be confused by your question. Are you asking if your flight originates elsewhere, but you go through DFW on your way to Hawaii can you be tested? I would assume so (and that's just my assumption), but unless you plan a long layover or overnight stay, you might not get the results in time. I notice the article also did not mention how long it will take for results.

Even if they said the results would be ready in 20 minutes how would they staff? Would they require an RSVP? What if 200+ people going to Maui wanted to be tested and another 200+ going to Honolulu?
 
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