Now I think I have seen it all! [merged]

[SueDonJ]

Attempting to surpress a variety of discussions pertaining to any brand name Timeshares Groups is a mistake. Marriott is a very good case study on a major player that has seen fit to spin off their timeshare division (this suggests that this group had serious problems). The discussions could be very benifical to both former Marriott managed properties owners (note: the new group still uses the Marriott name) and other owners in groups like Sheradon and Wyndham. I hope Timesos2 reconsiders and continues to post. ...

I don't want to suppress any spirited, factual discussions about Marriott and other timeshares. I agree with you - looking at a subject from all sides, positive and negative and everything in-between, is the most beneficial way to reach an informed opinion. But if non-factual info and other misrepresentations are allowed to stand in any such discussion, the opinion formed is flawed.

 

[KathyPet]

Wow! All I wanted to do was comment on the cushion hoarders not start WW3.
Unfortunately here at St. Kitts the timeshare units and the hotel share the same property. The pools and accompanying loungers belong to and are maintained by the hotel. The vacation club pays a fee to the hotel to provide and maintain these type of amenities

Also the there is no pool concierge or any security staff lurking to enforce any rules

 

[scrapngen]

I don't want to suppress any spirited, factual discussions about Marriott and other timeshares. I agree with you - looking at a subject from all sides, positive and negative and everything in-between, is the most beneficial way to reach an informed opinion. But if non-factual info and other misrepresentations are allowed to stand in any such discussion, the opinion formed is flawed.

REALLLLY need a "LIKE" button! It's a great way to say "I am in agreement with the statements/sentiments posted, and she/he said it as well as or (in many cases) much better than I would have...

Sue, you'd have a lot of "LIKES." It is not so much that I am always in agreement with you. (altho I can be) but on days like today, you have a way of stating what I am also thinking in a very level, calm, "stick-to-the-facts, Maam" way. I also appreciate your doggedness on pursuing Marriott policies, reading through the legalese, and quoting same when questions arise.

 

[scrapngen]

Wow! All I wanted to do was comment on the cushion hoarders not start WW3.
Unfortunately here at St. Kitts the timeshare units and the hotel share the same property. The pools and accompanying loungers belong to and are maintained by the hotel. The vacation club pays a fee to the hotel to provide and maintain these type of amenities

Also the there is no pool concierge or any security staff lurking to enforce any rules

I think you just inadvertantly became the straw that broke the camel's back. Or maybe an analogy about releasing the floodgates would be more apropos...

**And I apologise, since I never (except recently) stayed on your topic, either!

Truly, I originally read this thread and thought like you did!! Geezz, the things people do! Actually, I was trying to imagine this guy walking from the pool down hallways and/or elevators with these huge cushions!!! What on earth anyone he passed must have thought Then you have them in your room, taking up space, smelling like sweat and chlorine (or maybe pristine after having been cleaned for the night by the staff ) Meanwhile, juggling drink mug, book, pool toys, towels (well, got them poolside, probably)

THen again, I've trailed along as my DH has done some crazy (to me, but obviously not to him) thing that supposedly makes his stay better, but is either embarrassing, ridiculous, slightly bending of potential rules etc. to me. And I'm sure I've done the same to him. Just never would dream of taking lounge chair cushions and hoarding them during my stay!!:hysterical:

 

[mike2200]

Here at St. Kitts they have the mesh fabric pool chairs. Some of the chairs (maybe 10%) have those nice thick pads that attach with the straps. I like the padded chairs but it is not my life's work to get one and certainly not worth getting up at 7 AM to put my things on one to claim one. Yesterday afternoon around 4 as people were picking up to leave the pool area a couple who did have two chairs with pads seated on the other side of the pool got up, picked up their stuff and then removed the pads from the chairs they were seated in and walked into their villa with them. If that don't beat all!

couldn't pay for such entertainment...

 

[timeos2]

I don't want to suppress any spirited, factual discussions about Marriott and other timeshares. I agree with you - looking at a subject from all sides, positive and negative and everything in-between, is the most beneficial way to reach an informed opinion. But if non-factual info and other misrepresentations are allowed to stand in any such discussion, the opinion formed is flawed.

Sue - Being serious now you are assuming that my so called crusade against Marriott (it is not by the way - I suspect ALL developer controlled resorts - name or no name it doesn't matter) is somehow wrong (as in non-factual). I see the statements such as "only a XXX brand timeshare can give me quality" as being the misstatements as I know for a fact it isn't true.

A recent thread here in the Marriott section is a great example. A question was raised by an owner about what can be on the table when the management is up for renewal. Some who apparently are blinded by a name jump in to say "you can't ask for lower fees (and other things) or Marriott will walk away!". THAT is a dangerous and totally incorrect statement. One too prevalent when only one view - that the mothership corporation, whoever that may be, is looking out for the members - is allowed to be the only voice in the woods.

It is the job of YOUR resort Board to question things and make demands when it's time to renegotiate the management agreement (just one of many examples). It is NOT in you best interest for them to simply rubber stamp whatever corporation X demands as some seem to think is necessary. It doesn't mean the current management has to be removed or changed but they need to know they work for the owners - not the other way around.

I fear the newbies / uninformed will believe the misrepresentations often fostered by all sales organizations. The examples above are certainly key ones and it takes years of ownership and often more involvement than most owners ever care to have to learn what is really going on and how things can be manipulated. It's hardly ever in the owners favor except for the great advice/insights from so many here on TUG. And much of it comes from opposing views based on real experience rather than perceptions.

No one - certainly not me - knows it all. I do have nearly 20 years of active participation in timesharing groups, as a HOA member and with many sales & management organizations. I have also owned a wide selection of resorts & systems including the name brands. My posts are certainly my take on all I've seen & learned over that time. In some cases I see pitfalls I wish I had been made aware of years ago without learning them through sometimes hard life lessons.

Fern, Dave, Spence and many others who were around when I first got interested used to try to pass on what they knew and we all learned together from those varied experiences. Much of what they said conflicted with "common sense" but it turns out timeshares don't subscribe to common sense - they truly are a tiny world of their own. TUG has done great making options known to squeeze the best value out. I hope my small contributions have added at least something to the mix. Limiting what you want to read or hear is your right but it may pay to at least think about a different take rather than just the party line every time.

 

[thinze3]

Don't say I didn't warn you! :ignore:

I'm sorry, but in the latest thread the OP complained about folks who took the cushions from their pool loungers when they left the area, and you responded with incorrect information about Marriott's management fees. How you can correlate the two is beyond me.

followed by

By asking John questions you are stringing him along. Be Strong!

 

[SueDonJ]

Sue - Being serious now you are assuming that my so called crusade against Marriott (it is not by the way - I suspect ALL developer controlled resorts - name or no name it doesn't matter) is somehow wrong (as in non-factual). I see the statements such as "only a XXX brand timeshare can give me quality" as being the misstatements as I know for a fact it isn't true. ...

John, I understand your preference for a timeshare that is not one of the name-brands. No problem there at all, and like I've said before, someday if/when my preference changes to a stand-alone model, I'm going to be very grateful for the knowledge I've gained from you about that model. As anyone would be - you're a tireless champion for the model you prefer and there is nothing wrong with that!

My problem is that lately it seems that you've begun inserting your opinion in threads where the overall timeshare model isn't related to the topic, and/or, misrepresenting the Marriott product when you do share your opinion. One example is the topic of Marriott's 10% Management Fee. You told me yourself that you believe Marriott consistently pads the Operating Budgets of the individual resorts by forcing the BOD/HOA to purchase goods and hire employees at higher costs than are necessary, in an effort to increase their 10% take. You told me that you know this is happening because of one product at one resort which an owner told you about. I and several others responded with facts about the ways our resorts' BODs were able to contain and in some cases reduce costs with Marriott's support but you've yet to acknowledge those factual statements. In the particular thread that brought all this to a head today, you referred to Marriott's management fee being in the $300-$400 range and I pointed out that at the resort in question that figure is impossible based on the resort's actual Operating Budget. That's one of the examples I'd use for saying that you're not stating facts.

... A recent thread here in the Marriott section is a great example. A question was raised by an owner about what can be on the table when the management is up for renewal. Some who apparently are blinded by a name jump in to say "you can't ask for lower fees (and other things) or Marriott will walk away!". THAT is a dangerous and totally incorrect statement. One too prevalent when only one view - that the mothership corporation, whoever that may be, is looking out for the members - is allowed to be the only voice in the woods.

It is the job of YOUR resort Board to question things and make demands when it's time to renegotiate the management agreement (just one of many examples). It is NOT in you best interest for them to simply rubber stamp whatever corporation X demands as some seem to think is necessary. It doesn't mean the current management has to be removed or changed but they need to know they work for the owners - not the other way around. ...

You're right, it is the job of the BOD to further the owners' best interests whenever possible. Having access to Marriott governing docs and understanding how the Developer/Manager/HOA relationship functions at Marriott resorts, it is my opinion that trying to force Marriott to accept anything less than the 10% Management Fee that is stipulated in the governing docs could have dire consequences for the owners. It is my opinion that the 10% is too lucrative/important to Marriott for them to give it up easily, and that if they concede it at one of their resorts they will open the floodgates for all other resorts to demand the same. I just don't see it happening, and I'm one of the folks in that thread saying exactly that.

But I also said that seeing as it's a stipulation in the governing docs, it is theoretically possible for an ownership majority vote to change it. (That's not a route that I would want my fellow owners at my resorts to take because I think the risk of losing Marriott's management is too great, and I like owning a Marriott-managed timeshare. But others are certainly free to disagree with me.) I also agreed with someone else in the thread who said that it may be possible for the BOD/HOA to negotiate other concessions in order to reduce fees. So IMO the management contract renegotiation with Marriott isn't an all-or-nothing "you either kowtow to Marriott in all ways or else" situation, but rather a situation that requires a realistic view of the various risks and rewards.

... I fear the newbies / uninformed will believe the misrepresentations often fostered by all sales organizations. The examples above are certainly key ones and it takes years of ownership and often more involvement than most owners ever care to have to learn what is really going on and how things can be manipulated. It's hardly ever in the owners favor except for the great advice/insights from so many here on TUG. And much of it comes from opposing views based on real experience rather than perceptions.

No one - certainly not me - knows it all. I do have nearly 20 years of active participation in timesharing groups, as a HOA member and with many sales & management organizations. I have also owned a wide selection of resorts & systems including the name brands. My posts are certainly my take on all I've seen & learned over that time. In some cases I see pitfalls I wish I had been made aware of years ago without learning them through sometimes hard life lessons.

Fern, Dave, Spence and many others who were around when I first got interested used to try to pass on what they knew and we all learned together from those varied experiences. Much of what they said conflicted with "common sense" but it turns out timeshares don't subscribe to common sense - they truly are a tiny world of their own. TUG has done great making options known to squeeze the best value out. I hope my small contributions have added at least something to the mix. Limiting what you want to read or hear is your right but it may pay to at least think about a different take rather than just the party line every time.

John, I'm a big supporter of yours. Over the years you and the other mavens have taught me many things and I imagine there is still much that I could learn from you all. But I have learned enough to know that none of us ever gets everything right, and I think I now have enough Marriott-specific knowledge to point out to you when you're wrong. IMO, you've recently almost-irrationally upped the anti-Marriott campaign here on the Marriott board where we Marriott owners would like to be able to discuss both the pros and cons of our resorts without always having to be on the defensive, and I think you're wrong for taking it to such an extreme. It's not personal, and I sincerely hope that you don't take it that way.

 

[SueDonJ]

Don't say I didn't warn you! :ignore:

OK, Terry, now I'm done. But I saw a glimmer of an olive branch and wanted to give John the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Beefnot]

Don't underestimate the power of branding. No different from Sony or Pepsi or Mercedes or any other brand. Vizios televisions may perform every bit as well as Sony, RC every bit as tasty as Pepsi, and upscale Hyundais every bit as luxurious as Mercedes. But guess what? They ain't Sony, Pepsi, or Mercedes. Building brand perception and loyalty is valuable, both to the brand--as this allows for a premium to be charged--and to the customer--as there is an inherent trust and comfort in the product.

Timeos2 makes many correct points that we indeed can have comparable quality for less. This is a perspective that I tend to share, and there is much that can be learned if people sit back and absorb it. However, people don't necessarily place equal value on their time to research and develop trust in off-brand items. Whereas some of us may enjoy the tireless effort to discover hidden gems that will maximize our utility while simultaneously minimizing our out-of-pocket expense, others are perfectly happy in shortcutting the effort vs. utility vs. expense equation through the simple optimization approach of selecting a brand they trust.

I have no problem with timeos2's point of view, and I believe it to be a very valuable endeavor to dispel brand "myths". The issue I have is the apparent lack of discernment with when to wield the weapon. If the title/purpose of a given thread warrants raising the issue, or if there is a need to correct factual or perceptual misstatements, then boom, lay down the heavy-handed perspective and open up the debate. When it's folks celebrating why they love their brand or complaining about human behavior or some minor gripe with a property, I really don't see the productivity of whipping out the stick. The message gets lost when there is no discernment on the part of the messenger.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Whoa! Vizio Isn't Premium? Who Knew?

Vizios televisions may perform every bit as well as Sony, RC every bit as tasty as Pepsi, and upscale Hyundais every bit as luxurious as Mercedes. But guess what? They ain't Sony, Pepsi, or Mercedes.

Shux, I thought Vizio was considered a premium TV brand, right up there with Sony & all the other big bux TVs & electronics. Just goes to show how out of touch I am.

One brand name product that for sure is better than any no-name el cheapo is Gillette razor blades. Gillette blades are way better than any other I've tried for comfort & smoothness -- not to mention shaving close without nicking the skin.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Quilter]

Here at St. Kitts they have the mesh fabric pool chairs. Some of the chairs (maybe 10%) have those nice thick pads that attach with the straps. I like the padded chairs but it is not my life's work to get one and certainly not worth getting up at 7 AM to put my things on one to claim one. Yesterday afternoon around 4 as people were picking up to leave the pool area a couple who did have two chairs with pads seated on the other side of the pool got up, picked up their stuff and then removed the pads from the chairs they were seated in and walked into their villa with them. If that don't beat all!

Hi Kathy,

I don't know if you'll see this since the thread was hijacked but here's my 2 cents with regards to the chair pads.

There could have been a legitimate reason the couple pulled them off and carried them away. They could have specifically asked management to supply them with a couple--maybe even rented them. They could have bought them like you can buy the bedding and bathrobes. They could have "borrowed" the cushions from another pool area and were returning them.

All of the above are a stretch but my concern would be to dwell on the unpleasant thought of such entitled behavior without know all the details.

I had to look at the St. Kitts website to see if there was more than 1 pool. We stayed at the hotel years ago and the pictures reminded me how pretty it is. I hope you have a very relaxing stay. If I was there I would book a reservation for a lovely dinner at Marshall's and ask for a table overlooking the cliff.

Suzzanne

 

[Beefnot]

Why not make management aware of what you witnessed and, if this is unsanctioned behavior, that you are very displeased with the lack of policing and inability for you to secure padded chairs. Maybe they'll bequeath some consolation perk on you.

 

[dioxide45]

At our resorts (both non-names) each & every chair/lounge has a cushion.

I'm very surprised that a quality resort would not have enough cushions for the pool chairs. In fact I would expect them to have TWO per chair so one can be cleaned while the other is in use. That is how it is done at resorts (to remain unnamed) I am personally familiar with.

How convenient to keep those resort "unnamed". No way for anyone to really substantiate your claims. However, if you are disclosing all your resorts in the list of resorts in your profile, then these resorts would be Cypress Pointe and The Cove at Yarmouth (Which I would consider DRI a brand name). Looking at the photos of the pools at these resorts on Trip Adviser, some of which were just uploaded this month, I don't see very many cushions on the chairs. Now perhaps there are some that were not in the photographs, but that is a stretch from "each and every chair".

In fact, if you take a look at the photos, many of the loungers appear to be those horrible plastic ones with the nylon mesh instead of the slightly better steel ones with vinyl straps.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Brand Name, Shmand Name.

However, if you are disclosing all your resorts in the list of resorts in your profile, then these resorts would be Cypress Pointe and The Cove at Yarmouth (Which I would consider DRI a brand name).

DRI is not calling the shots at either of those timeshares.

True, the DRI timeshare sellers have been known to fuzz over the reality that independent owner-controlled HOAs are in charge, but it's still a reality.

You could look it up.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[KathyPet]

Umm, while I would like to believe the best of people I really can't see any reason to do so here. There are no signs or information of any sort that indicates that you can "rent" the pads for the chairs. There was nothing in the information in the villa and while the towel hut does have snorkel gear and the spongee type pool floats for rent there is no indication on the list of items for rent they rent the chair pads. The pads I saw these folks carrying were old and faded and did not look like they were purchased. I cannot imagine that there is a store on St. Kitts to purchase anything like this. They were carrying the pads up the stairs to their unit on the second floor of their building so they were not returning them to another pool area.

Nope I really am very sure that were "hoarding" them.

PS: went to Marshall's for dinner along with Serendipity, the Beach House (twice) and Royal Palm Restaurant at Oattley's Plantation Inn. Great food at all of them!

 

[MALC9990]

Kathy,
I think I saw the "pad snatching couple" at Ocean Pointe when we were there last April! While they did not "take" things up to their villa, they always arrived ( she would dispatch him) at the Sailfish pool at 7:00AM. He would "claim" 6 chairs...always the same spot....on the west side of the pool, facing east, in front of the main lobby. He would toss books, towels, t-shirts on each chair, place plastic noodles & flip flops under the chairs. It was quite unbelievable to watch. Then "his" chairs would remain unoccupied ( except for all of thier junk) until around noon when she would show up.

This "entitled" couple had 2 little kids. The kids never sat on the chairs, the father never sat on the chairs...the kids ran around and he chased the kids. Meanwhile, she luxuriated in the sun, sunbathing....6 chairs for one woman. The chairs remained "claimed" by these 2 until the end of the day. One day it rained and they were not there when the rain started. They were often "not there" throughout the day. They did not come back to pick up their stuff. I don't know what happened.

It was unbelievable. Even more unbelievable was that not once did the "chair monitors"/Loss Prevention people ( or whatever they call those Ocean Pointe employees who walk around the pool but do nothing ) remove their stuff. That's what they tell us they do. But they don't.

I guess now they are in St. Kitts "claiming" chair pads. I guess you can be grateful they are only taking 2 instead of 6!!

Smooth Air

I have my own solution to these "bed blockers" - I just move their stuff and take over the sun beds they seemed to think they own. The only thing that reserves a sun bed is a bum that is sat on it.

 

[MALC9990]

Umm, while I would like to believe the best of people I really can't see any reason to do so here. There are no signs or information of any sort that indicates that you can "rent" the pads for the chairs. There was nothing in the information in the villa and while the towel hut does have snorkel gear and the spongee type pool floats for rent there is no indication on the list of items for rent they rent the chair pads. The pads I saw these folks carrying were old and faded and did not look like they were purchased. I cannot imagine that there is a store on St. Kitts to purchase anything like this. They were carrying the pads up the stairs to their unit on the second floor of their building so they were not returning them to another pool area.

Nope I really am very sure that were "hoarding" them.

PS: went to Marshall's for dinner along with Serendipity, the Beach House (twice) and Royal Palm Restaurant at Oattley's Plantation Inn. Great food at all of them!

Thanks for the recommendations on places to eat.

 

[m61376]

John-
I'd love all resorts to have chair cushions, but in my experience most don't. We were at Harborside last summer and their hard chaises around most of their pools were a big step down from Marriott's strappy chairs. And there wasn't a cushion anywhere, even for handicapped use (I asked). My Mom was with us, and I landed up buying a blow up air raft (and had to blow it up by mouth- no air hose available to guests) so she could lie on the lounges, since with rheumatoid arthritis those lounges were impossible. The only solution they had offered were extra towels. No one even mentioned the pool area with the textilene chaises that we found mid week. But we had a great time anyway, and didn't find it necessary to bash Starwood for their choice of chaises.

I am glad for you that your resorts have double sets of cushions for everyone. I'm venturing to guess though that there are amenities lacking that you'd like to see perhaps (and maybe where Marriott chose to put those MF dollars), or that others could be hypercritical of if they wanted to be. But as long as you enjoy your trips and Kathy enjoys hers, despite the lack of cushions (or the despite the cushion hogs in this case) then all is good.

 

[Smooth Air]

MAL,
I love it!

What do the "absentee bums" say when they return?
Where do you put their stuff?
Any confrontation?

Smooth Air

 

[ampaholic]

Hey, wait I thought we were boycotting the Marriott boards in February???

And here John goes and makes a good point - "there are statistically fewer cushion hogs at 'no name' resorts since more of the 'self entitled snobs' ie 'cushion hogs' gravitate to the name brands".



:rofl:

 

[GregT]

And here John goes and makes a good point - "there are statistically fewer cushion hogs at 'no name' resorts since more of the 'self entitled snobs' ie 'cushion hogs' gravitate to the name brands".



:rofl:

Rick, that's funny.....it sure would be tough to boycott a response to that one if it was posted.

 

[rrlongwell]

Hey, wait I thought we were boycotting the Marriott boards in February??? ...

Good point, this is February. Everyone that does not support the boycot should make a post. Good to see that a number of people are already ignorinig it.

Actually, since I appearently am on the boycot list, the boycotters can not respond to this until next month.

 

[AwayWeGo]

TUG-BBS Boycott? Who Knew ?

I thought we were boycotting the Marriott boards in February?

Shux, I thought we were boycotting the Marriott timeshares in February.

No problem. I wasn't planning on going to 1 this month anyhow.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ampaholic]

Shux, I thought we were boycotting the Marriott timeshares in February.

Oh, Alan you made me laugh out loud with that crack

:hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical: