New official "skim" thread

[dougp26364]

Dan & Tombo,

I've done my best to explain my position and my belief that skim is really not a big consideration. So, I will agree to concede the argument. To agree that every point you made is right and every point I made is wrong.

On one condition.

Find 10 owners on TUG that are willing to say that in order to reserve the week that they want, any week at any resort that they own, that they will do it with points when the points that Marriott wants for that week are greater than the number of points that Marriott gave them to convert.

If you find these ten folks then skim is alive and well. If not, would you at least consider that maybe it's not such a big deal after-all?

It's midnight here on the East coast. I'll catch you guys in the morning with a fresh cup of coffee.

For the owner who converts to points it might not be that big of a deal. That
's Marrriott's hope. Just because it might not be a big deal to the owner, the skim still exists. If Marriott gives out 7% fewer points than it takes owners to reserve all weeks, then Marriott has recieved 7% more in points and, as a result, will have ~7% more unused nights that it can rent. Since there seems to be no restrictions on what Marriott makes available and what it does not make available to owners, then Marriott can pick and choose what nights it wants to rent and at what resorts it wants to rent them, so long as there have been owners at those resorts who have converted to points.

Even when you don't convert you're week, the skim can still affect you in the same way owners converting to MR points can affect you. That being that Marriott now has inventory to rent. I don't see it as a major difference and I don't believe it will affect owners any more than when owners convert to MR points. Marriott makes a profit when you convert to MR points and, they'll be making a profit off legacy week owners (overall at least) who convert to DC points.

 

[pipet]

I’m not trying to convert anyone I’m just pointing out that the new system can be manipulated to our benefit.

Adding to what Doug said...

I do agree that you can play the system. In the manipulation scenario, because you pick a lower demand week, you are helping Marriott by releasing a week to the points pool. I don't think anyone here will argue that Marriott is going to put the least expensive week from your season in the point pool - but rather they are going to go for the primo weeks! For everyone who converts, even if they don't skim you, they can be almost guaranteed to skim someone else who comes in and reserves the higher demand week, so while you might get a win, it's a big WIN for Marriott. Despite skim, there will be some owners who will convert out of curiosity, to get into Trust properties, to try to have a better chance at making trades, etc, so these trades will happen.

In the manipulation system, you don't have an indefinite amount of time to use up those extra 100 or whatever points. For some, using up those 100 pts before they expire may not be an issue, but I think once you end up with those extra points, it will be pretty easy to tap into your week to do more with the points and thus get you into the perpetual points game (thus paying skim).

Even if you are able to make this system work for you personally, I am not happy about Marriott creating a new way to milk me (with the subtext of if I don't play along I am going to miss out in the future). This is more than simply an internal exchange system with reasonable fees. As many have noted, they now will be able to control inventory much better. While they could always rent units before when they were converted to MRPs, the new system gives them a much bigger inventory grab than they were getting previously. While people might not have complained that much about MRP conversions in the past, I think DC points + MRPs will have a bigger impact.

 

[jimf41]

Adding to what Doug said...

I do agree that you can play the system. In the manipulation scenario, because you pick a lower demand week, you are helping Marriott by releasing a week to the points pool. I don't think anyone here will argue that Marriott is going to put the least expensive week from your season in the point pool - but rather they are going to go for the primo weeks!

If I use points to reserve a week I'm not releasing anything to Marriott's points pool. I'm simply reserving it with points and putting 225 points in the bank rather than reserving it as a week and putting 0 points in the bank. The weeks I reserve at MPB are 42 and 43. Of the 20 week Silver season there are only 5 weeks with a higher TDI. Those weeks are equal to or greater than any week in Gold season according to the TDI.

As for my Platinum MPB week, I plan on converting it to points and reserving the same Platinum week in February at MFC with a profit of 200 points. There is nothing "lower season" about either of these weeks.

A few posts back you made the comment that once you start down this conversion road you are likely to be stuck doing it forever or else let some points expire. This is a real concern and it will depend on availability. I don't think anyone can predict what that will be two or three years down the road.

 

[pipet]

If I use points to reserve a week I'm not releasing anything to Marriott's points pool. I'm simply reserving it with points and putting 225 points in the bank rather than reserving it as a week and putting 0 points in the bank. The weeks I reserve at MPB are 42 and 43. Of the 20 week Silver season there are only 5 weeks with a higher TDI. Those weeks are equal to or greater than any week in Gold season according to the TDI.

True, I wasn't thinking! And if you are able to get your good weeks that you really want, you can do well with the system. I think Marriott has calculated that enough people will lose out that the few who can do well aren't going to dip into the profit.

 

[dioxide45]

The problem is that Marriott re-seasoned all of their resorts. You can't do that and make everyone happy. It is impossible to do that and make it so an owner can exchange in to any week in their season. If you give them enough points to get in to any week in their season, you now have an imbalance of points vs inventory. If you give them an average, there will be weeks they can't get in to.

In my opinion, Marriott should have left the season along. Assigning points to each current season, giving owners the points needed for those seasons. This would have been a simple overlay system.

 

[dioxide45]

We really shouldn't call it "skim" any more. It should be called the "spread". It sounds more positive

 

[dougp26364]

We really shouldn't call it "skim" any more. It should be called the "spread". It sounds more positive

Considering that Marriott's jacking me for 1,000 points on the week I normally reserve, I think the term skim, with it's negative contotation, is still appropriate.

On average all legacy week owner that convert their weeks to points appear to lose 7% value. That's not a spread when you're on the losing end and, all but the few owners who can actually reserve weeks and have points left over will be on the negative end of this stick.

When the mafia took it's cut off the top in Vegas, is was called a skim. Marriott's taking it's cut off the top. IMHO, that's a skim.

 

[dioxide45]

Considering that Marriott's jacking me for 1,000 points on the week I normally reserve, I think the term skim, with it's negative contotation, is still appropriate.

On average all legacy week owner that convert their weeks to points appear to lose 7% value. That's not a spread when you're on the losing end and, all but the few owners who can actually reserve weeks and have points left over will be on the negative end of this stick.

Our skim is Marriott's spread.

 

[jimf41]

Considering that Marriott's jacking me for 1,000 points on the week I normally reserve, I think the term skim, with it's negative contotation, is still appropriate.

On average all legacy week owner that convert their weeks to points appear to lose 7% value. That's not a spread when you're on the losing end and, all but the few owners who can actually reserve weeks and have points left over will be on the negative end of this stick.

When the mafia took it's cut off the top in Vegas, is was called a skim. Sure there were some winners in Vegas but, overall, Vegas gamblers were losers. Marriott has that guarenteed profit when legacy week owners convert to points. This is the basic definition of skim IMHO. Marriott is guarenteed to win while owners who convert are guarenteed to lose on average.

Doug,

Marriott is not jacking you for anything. Nor are you going to lose 7%. You will reserve your week as usual. When you are down there in your 5900 point November week that you reserved as a week, you can have bragging rights at the High Tides bar by saying you only paid $1456 to get your week while the "trust" owner next to you paid $2360 in MF to get the same unit.

Legacy weeks rock!!

 

[dougp26364]

Doug,

Marriott is not jacking you for anything. Nor are you going to lose 7%. You will reserve your week as usual. When you are down there in your 5900 point November week that you reserved as a week, you can have bragging rights at the High Tides bar by saying you only paid $1456 to get your week while the "trust" owner next to you paid $2360 in MF to get the same unit.

Legacy weeks rock!!

OK, so let's put it this way. If I want to swim in the new pool with the cool kids, I have to pay up. AKA the skim.

Marriott didn't take anything away from legacy week owners. They only imposed a heavy price on them if they want the shiny new object. Sure we can play but, in order to play, we have to pay. Thanks Marriott for tossing those owners that built your brand a bone.

Sorry, but after knowning how other points based systems treat their owners, I'm not in the mood for cutting Marriott any slack. I love the idea I paid developer pricing, only to have to pay a joiner fee, membership fee AND be skimmed if I want the "new" product.

 

[dioxide45]

Considering that Marriott's jacking me for 1,000 points on the week I normally reserve, I think the term skim, with it's negative contotation, is still appropriate.

My post was posted with a level of sarcasm.

 

[dougp26364]

My post was posted with a level of sarcasm.

So tough to read sarcasm on the internet.

 

[dioxide45]

So tough to read sarcasm on the internet.

I agree, that was the reason for the though.