New official "skim" thread

[rsackett]

... The number of weeks I own has nothing to do with my view. Any one week owner can still get his/her full week. And in the vast majority of cases they can get 7 or more days at another resort. Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, nor should they.
...

The real issue is they can not get 7 nights at an equivalent resort. Skim is Marriott's way of paying the bills/making money off the new system. I feel it would have been much better to give full value and charge a minimal fee per trade.

I will not give up 7 nights at my resort and not get 7 nights at an equivilant resort. If I trade 7 nights for a 7 night stay at a resort it should not cost as much as getting 7 individual nights, or more spread out.

Ray

 

[pipet]

You're unhappy because some low MF owner traded into your resort? Why do you care?

The owner of that unit paid the MF assigned to that unit and time. Unless someone put a gun to that owners head, he made a voluntary decision to trade his occupancy for something else he preferred.

Whether that's an up, down or sideways trade is that owner's private business - it matters not a whit to you.

If you don't want to trade, don't trade. Up down or sideways. But don't take away someone else's freedom to choose to trade or not trade because you don't happen to agree with the terms of that trade.

Did you read my entire post? And that it was addressing a previous post?

I didnt say I was unhappy. I love my resort. It's just not the best trading resort for your dollar, but I didn't think about that when I bought it. I don't blame anyone else for that! In my case, rather than be unhappy with uptraders, it just made me realize that I didn't know how to use the system well. I

However, what I was addressing is this: some owners have touted the new point system as a good thing since it makes uptrades impossible. Why would they be unhappy with uptrades? I think the cost they paid was probably a reason. They may have thought it unfair for people who didn't pay a lot to get what they paid more for (in various posts I have seen this sentiment).

Whether you agree with their sentiment or not, the new system is not fair to anyone unless you do tons of short stays to use up the skim/built-in exchange fee. The argument for the new system is that people now get what they paid for, but I am suggesting that is false! I think we all, whether it be in Branson silver or MM1 fixed peak, we all get less than what we paid for.

 

[windje2000]

Did you read my entire post? And that it was addressing a previous post?

I didnt say I was unhappy. I love my resort. It's just not the best trading resort for your dollar, but I didn't think about that when I bought it. I don't blame anyone else for that! In my case, rather than be unhappy with uptraders, it just made me realize that I didn't know how to use the system well. I

However, what I was addressing is this: some owners have touted the new point system as a good thing since it makes uptrades impossible. Why would they be unhappy with uptrades? I think the cost they paid was probably a reason. They may have thought it unfair for people who didn't pay a lot to get what they paid more for (in various posts I have seen this sentiment).

Whether you agree with their sentiment or not, the new system is not fair to anyone unless you do tons of short stays to use up the skim/built-in exchange fee. The argument for the new system is that people now get what they paid for, but I am suggesting that is false! I think we all, whether it be in Branson silver or MM1 fixed peak, we all get less than what we paid for.

Please do not misundertake me -- my thoughts were directed at the sentiment expressed, not you as the poster.

A look at my posts will indicate that I am (at least currently) a skeptic of this 'plan.'

 

[pipet]

Please do not misundertake me -- my thoughts were directed at the sentiment expressed, not you as the poster.

LOL, I just don't want to be associated with the sentiment.

In all honesty, because of how Marriott sold TS in the past, the most pleasant point system would to be to give people what they were sold and follow a model more like HGVC. HGVC has upped the points a bit at the newest resorts, but people do have enough points for the resorts that were in the system when they bought.

Whatever people feel about the downtrading aspect, I can't ever say that Marriott "tricked" me or anything. I was told that I could trade my week for another week in the Marriott system, even in other HI resorts, and that was/is true with II. It was left up to the buyer to do the math that it wasn't a good deal at some places. It may be an argument for points, but in the old system, if you wanted a trader for Orlando & such, don't buy HI. It doesn't have anything to do with skim at all.

And chiming in with the other HI owners: converting to points would mean that I lose one of the primary selling points for my week (getting trades into other HI weeks). It doesn't matter if I am compensated a little for other downtrades if I can't do those trades.

 

[jimf41]

Jim, your interpretation of skim is just different than what appears to be most people's interpretation.

If one agrees that the skim is the difference between the average points required to trade into your season and what you were allocated then what you say is incorrect. Using that definition:

• 100% of weeks fall in the "negative skim column"

• 
  Where you make a reservation is completely irrelevant. In fact there is no more "home resort" once you convert to points.

It's ok to disagree on definitions but let's first clarify what we mean. Then people can decide for themselves.

Ok, but my definition of skim is a little different than yours. Skim to me is the profit that either Marriott or the owner makes when the week is turned in for points. Most times it would appear that Marriott profits. But that would be false because no owner would trade back into his home resort if he lost points doing so. He would simply reserve his week. Doug, if he joins, would never trade his 3BDRM Silver in for points because he likes to go in November and he would lose about 1500 points. I use my 3bdrm in October and would always turn that in for points as I make 225 points on the deal. Marriott made no skim on Doug but I skimmed 225 points from Marriott.

My claim is that a 3BR in that season should get 4540 points because that is the average of the season. In reality it got 4225 points. So I say there is skim of 315 points. It doesn't matter what you do with the 4225 points - you lost 315.

You are assuming that all 20 owners of the 20 week Silver season are turning in for points. IMO this will never happen. If you think it will then I'd like to hear your argument to Doug as to why he should turn his week in for 4225 points and then pay 5900 points to reserve it. The "average" argument, while mathematically true, does not stand up when you look at what is going to happen in practice.

I believe you are saying that you can book some weeks in that season for 2900 points or 4000 points so you come out ahead or even way ahead. I say it doesn't really matter because if you had 4540 points you could do the same thing and have 315 more points at the end of the day.

I say it does matter. I won't book in September and pick up 2325 points because I don't want to go in September. Although now that you point it out if I could rent a September week for the MF and pick up 2325 points cheaply. I've never rented but that does sound interesting. I go in October and I make 225 points on the transaction. Hypothetically I lose 315 points according to the average skim but I don't care about the hypothetical loss when I bank 225 points.


According to your interpretation, Marriott could have given you 3000 points instead of the already skimmed 4225 points. You should still be happy with that because you can book weeks 36-38 and come out ahead.

Why would I be happy with 3000 points? I've used the week in October every year since I bought it in 2002. October weeks require 4000 points. I get 4225. I'm happy with that. But if they did only give me 3000 points I'd still use it in October. I'd just have to reserve it as a week instead of points.

By the way, would you be happy with 3000 points for your 3 BR?

Dan, I do understand your reasoning about the average skim. It's just that I can't imagine it ever really happening in practice. And while I don't understand your last question the answer is --No, I would not be happy with 3000 points.

 

[jimf41]

Yes, you can try to game the system if you can travel off season, but anyone who books a week with points is getting less than what they gave. Even if you don't choose to book certain weeks, what about someone trading in from somewhere else? Because of the "built-in exchange fee," anyone who trades in with points is totally cancelling out any savings someone else sees from gaming. If you use points to trade at other resorts, you have also paid a price for it.

The fact of the matter is even if they eliminated skim, the high demand weeks would still be used. Owners would not all the sudden make a profit on the system because that assumes they can all travel during lower demand weeks.

In my example I did not compare a high season week to an off season week. I used weeks in the same season.

As far as trading I cited a specific example of trading one high value week for another and demonstrated that the trader made points on that transaction. I suggest you reread my first post carefully.

I said nothing or gave no example about going from a high season week to a low season week to make the system work.

 

[tombo]

Dan, I do understand your reasoning about the average skim. It's just that I can't imagine it ever really happening in practice. And while I don't understand your last question the answer is --No, I would not be happy with 3000 points.

At many resorts a platinum owner (for example) does not get enough points to book ANY platinum week. The skim results in owners not getting enough points to access ANY week in season at their home resort. So the 3000 point example using a number less than your lowest in season week is a "what if" in your situation, but it is reality for many using the points Marriott gives them if they deposit their week.

 

[DanCali]

Dan, I do understand your reasoning about the average skim. It's just that I can't imagine it ever really happening in practice. And while I don't understand your last question the answer is --No, I would not be happy with 3000 points.

My latest question was taking your argument to an extreme. You say you book October weeks for 4000 points. So the question should be (forget you got 4225 points) would you have been happy with 4005 points? Even if the average of the season is 4540?

I'm sure you see my point that it's not ok if you just can reserve the weeks you vacation and have points left over. The fact that you are getting less than the average of your week means you are shortchanged on "trading power". If you had 4540 points you could do more. And 4540 points is what you should get based on what Marriott values your week.

I believe you understand how I view skim and that, based on my definition of skim, I'm right. I still disagree with how you view skim, and am not offended if you still disagree with my definition. But I think we both agree that you'd be better off with 4540 points that with 4005 or 4225 points

 

[pipet]

In my example I did not compare a high season week to an off season week. I used weeks in the same season.

As far as trading I cited a specific example of trading one high value week for another and demonstrated that the trader made points on that transaction. I suggest you reread my first post carefully.

I said nothing or gave no example about going from a high season week to a low season week to make the system work.

I only call it high & low because in some "seasons" have a very high variance in point cost. In my own resort, I can "make" a few points if I can travel at a lower demand week in my own season. For the majority of owners, this is not practical, and there are a lot of owners who didn't get enough points to reserve in their season at all. I do agree the skim doesn't hurt everyone equally, and that some can game the system, but overall I still think it's costly for most owners.

However, I think the real trap with points is that once you start using them, you kind of need to keep using them as you will either have some points to bank or you will have borrowed points. If that happens, then you might actually end up using points for your home resort where it can be a big loss.

 

[burg1121]

Here's what I don't understand maybe Marriott should have had just 1 bucket and no skim. They could have based everyones point on their purchase price and a point would be a point would be point. But the trade value to the resorts would be based on current or last sales price. It could be a lot worse but I haven't joined yet.

 

[jimf41]

At many resorts a platinum owner (for example) does not get enough points to book ANY platinum week. The skim results in owners not getting enough points to access ANY week in season at their home resort. So the 3000 point example using a number less than your lowest in season week is a "what if" in your situation, but it is reality for many using the points Marriott gives them if they deposit their week.

This is the case with my three MFC weeks. All on the negative side of skim. But I don't lose anything. I'll simply use them as weeks. This is what I don't understand about the skim controversy. It just doesn't seem to affect anyone. Yes it exists on paper but it would be a rare owner who ever lets it happen.

A little side note on MFC. They are still selling weeks there as the legal stuff hasn't been worked out yet.

 

[GregT]

This is the case with my three MFC weeks. All on the negative side of skim. But I don't lose anything. I'll simply use them as weeks. This is what I don't understand about the skim controversy. It just doesn't seem to affect anyone. Yes it exists on paper but it would be a rare owner who ever lets it happen.

This is something I find so interesting about the points system -- this was a conclusion I reached on how to reconcile with the skim -- I just don't redeem the units for points.

Which then makes me wonder, how's Marriott going to get that rare inventory (like a 3BR MOC or a 3BR MFC?) Is someone like me really going to waitlist for that rare 3BR MFC to come up (and have given up their weeks)?

It is incredibly puzzling, and yet Marriott is too smart to not have considered that this would happen. They appear to have taken a very long view that people like me will eventually sell, and they will either ROFR it or the next guy will be willing to redeem because they bought knowing all the sordid details.

Interesting stuff -- tough for us feeling the birthing pains.

Greg

 

[dougp26364]

The reason other systems give you the number of points you need to exchange back into your own resort is because you need to use points to stay there. It is all points based.

This is not a correct statement. Most of the points based systems out there are from converted weeks based systems. There are very few pure points systems. The only two I can think of are DVC and HGVC. Otherwise, all the systems I'm aware of are converted from weeks based system and, most of those continue to have weeks based owners.

Marriott appears to be unique in that they give owners fewer points than it takes to reserve most weeks in the season they purchased. Can you name me one other points based system that does this? My bet is they're few and far between if not non-existant.

 

[tombo]

This is the case with my three MFC weeks. All on the negative side of skim. But I don't lose anything. I'll simply use them as weeks. This is what I don't understand about the skim controversy. It just doesn't seem to affect anyone. Yes it exists on paper but it would be a rare owner who ever lets it happen.

A little side note on MFC. They are still selling weeks there as the legal stuff hasn't been worked out yet.

It does affect you and all weeks owners. If your season is worth 4000 points for example, and if you actually received 4000 points if you deposited your week for points then you could join points and actually get the flexibility that comes with points. Because of the skim you can join points, but you don't get the full number of points your week is worth so not the full benefit and flexibility that points bring.

Marriott rolled out a new points program, offered it to you, but then they cheat you out of points if you decide to join and actually use points. You lost the ability to join points and get what you paid for when you converted (you don't get as many points when you deposit your weeks as Marriott gets when they rent it to someone else). You lose the ability to trade for like valued weeks using points. You lose the ability to trade for your own resort a year from now using points. You lose the ability to trade for weeks valued higher than your week in points. You lose some of your voting rights. You lose a lot.

 

[jimf41]

My latest question was taking your argument to an extreme. You say you book October weeks for 4000 points. So the question should be (forget you got 4225 points) would you have been happy with 4005 points? Even if the average of the season is 4540?

I'm sure you see my point that it's not ok if you just can reserve the weeks you vacation and have points left over. The fact that you are getting less than the average of your week means you are shortchanged on "trading power". If you had 4540 points you could do more. And 4540 points is what you should get based on what Marriott values your week.

I believe you understand how I view skim and that, based on my definition of skim, I'm right. I still disagree with how you view skim, and am not offended if you still disagree with my definition. But I think we both agree that you'd be better off with 4540 points that with 4005 or 4225 points

Dan,

I don't see the question of what number of points would make me happy as relevant to the skim discussion. Whatever amount that would make me happy the fact is I wound up with 4225. I will use those in the best way I can to make the system work for me. I can not envision that I would enter into a situation where I lost points on the transaction. That's true whether they give me 10 points or 10,000 points.

Im not going to convince you that skim won't affect you. You are not going to convince me that I can't skim Marriott. That wasn't the point of my first post. The point is that contrary to the overwhelming belief on TUG that Marriott is going to reap millions of points by skimming the legacy owners, I just don't see it happening in the real world. At least not for TUG members anyway. Every TUGGER who has posted about skim knows how to avoid it. They might not all be able to turn it around to their advantage but they won't lose on it.

 

[dougp26364]

This is the case with my three MFC weeks. All on the negative side of skim. But I don't lose anything. I'll simply use them as weeks. This is what I don't understand about the skim controversy. It just doesn't seem to affect anyone. Yes it exists on paper but it would be a rare owner who ever lets it happen.

A little side note on MFC. They are still selling weeks there as the legal stuff hasn't been worked out yet.

So long as you don't give Marriott your weeks for points, the skim doesn't exist. The one nice thing about the DC is you DON'T have to exchange your weks for points. You may continue to exchange weeks for weeks, just like you always have, for one flat fee. The problem is, right now there's no online live access to do your own exchanges. Right now, you have to call a VOA and have them handle matters for you. I'm not buying into that as I prefer to do things online, myself, when my time dictates. Now when it's convenient for Marriott and their VOA's.

 

[jimf41]

It does affect you and all weeks owners.

I'll go with this as long as you put the words "I believe" in the front of the sentence. This is your opinion which I disagree with and have painstakingly documented in three different resorts in my initial post.

If your season is worth 4000 points for example, and if you actually received 4000 points if you deposited your week for points then you could join points and actually get the flexibility that comes with points. Because of the skim you can join points, but you don't get the full number of points your week is worth so not the full benefit and flexibility that points bring.

What number are you putting on a Silver 3bdrm at MPB as far as it's worth?. It gets 4225, it costs 2000, 4000 or 5900 depending on which week you pick. The season average is 4540. Whichever number you pick I can make a strong argument that it's unfair to someone else in the season. Marriott nullified this "what's it worth" argument by giving everyone the ability to just reserve a week as a week. The way I look at this I either win or I come out even. I don't ever lose.


Marriott rolled out a new points program, offered it to you, but then they cheat you out of points if you decide to join and actually use points. You lost the ability to join points and get what you paid for when you converted (you don't get as many points when you deposit your weeks as Marriott gets when they rent it to someone else).

I disagree. First of all they didn't cheat me. I explained this in my initial post. The way I'm using the system I will make points on my Silver MPB weeks. As far as me not getting what Marriott gets when they rent the week or give it to someone on points that's old news. Marriott has been doing that since the beginning. I don't see any change here.

You lose the ability to trade for like valued weeks using points.

Not true. Read my initial post about trading a Plat MPB for a PLat MFC.

You lose the ability to trade for your own resort a year from now using points.

Not sure what you mean here. Could you explain further?

You lose the ability to trade for weeks valued higher than your week in points.

Again see the MPB-MFC example in the initial post.

You lose some of your voting rights. You lose a lot.

Don't get me started about the voting habits and rights of US citizens. Besides this a Skim thread not a voting thread.

 

[tombo]

Don't get me started about the voting habits and rights of US citizens. Besides this a Skim thread not a voting thread.

If your season is worth 4000 points for example, and if you actually received 4000 points if you deposited your week for points then you could join points and actually get the flexibility that comes with points. Because of the skim you can join points, but you don't get the full number of points your week is worth so not the full benefit and flexibility that points bring.

What number are you putting on a Silver 3bdrm at MPB as far as it's worth?. It gets 4225, it costs 2000, 4000 or 5900 depending on which week you pick. The season average is 4540. Whichever number you pick I can make a strong argument that it's unfair to someone else in the season. Marriott nullified this "what's it worth" argument by giving everyone the ability to just reserve a week as a week. The way I look at this I either win or I come out even. I don't ever lose..

If you can trade for ANY silver season 3 bed room unit using your week, you should have the ability to do the same using points. You bought access to any 3 bed room silver week, not just some of them. Once your silver 3 ved unit is converted to points you should get the same number of points as it takes to reserve any in season week.If Marriott wants to assign all silver 3 bed units 4540 points, then you should get 4540 points when you depsoit your week for points. That would be fair because all silver 3 bed owners would get the same number of points as it takes to reserve any 3 bed silver unit, just as they all can reserve any 3 bed silver unit now based on availability. As it stands NO silver week owner receives the 5900 points for some of the silver weeks, only marriott does.


Marriott rolled out a new points program, offered it to you, but then they cheat you out of points if you decide to join and actually use points. You lost the ability to join points and get what you paid for when you converted (you don't get as many points when you deposit your weeks as Marriott gets when they rent it to someone else).

I disagree. First of all they didn't cheat me. I explained this in my initial post. The way I'm using the system I will make points on my Silver MPB weeks. As far as me not getting what Marriott gets when they rent the week or give it to someone on points that's old news. Marriott has been doing that since the beginning. I don't see any change here..

You paid for your week when you bought it, and you pay with annual MF's. You purchased the right to ANY silver 3 bed unit at your resort. For Marriott to place any silver weeks out of reach using points means that you lost access. If you have access to weeks 18 through 34 now using weeks, and through points you only get enough points to reserve weeks 18-24 and 28 to 34, you have lost access to previously available weeks when you deposit for points. If you can never get 5900 points when you deposit, you never have access to all prime in season weeks using points.

You lose the ability to trade for like valued weeks using points.

Not true. Read my initial post about trading a Plat MPB for a PLat MFC..

In several resorts the high in season weeks are 3000 points, the low is 2500 points, the average is 2750 points, and owners get 2400 points if they deposit for points. If you don't get enough points to equal the average number of points to reserve an in season week at your home resort (or in many cases enough points to reserve any in season week) you can't trade for like resorts. If the average week at my resort is 2750 Marriott rates my week as a 2750 point week. If I only get 2400 points I can't reserve a 2750 point like resort somewhere else. Simple. In addition at my resort I can reserve a 3000 point prime in season week. I CAN'T EVER get an equivalent 3000 point week at another resort even though I have the right to get a 3000 point week at home.

You lose the ability to trade for your own resort a year from now using points.

Not sure what you mean here. Could you explain further?.

If you need 2- 3 bed units next year in a prime silver week and you deposit your week this year for points to use with your home week next year so that you can have 2-3bed units for family in the same year, you can't get 2 prime weeks because Marriiott will not give you the 5900 points you need.

You lose the ability to trade for weeks valued higher than your week in points.

Again see the MPB-MFC example in the initial post..

I can reserve the best in season week, deposit it in II and have good trading power to get other resorts. I can often get better resorts than my own using II. Once i give my week to Marriott for points I NEVER get the number of points a prime in season week gets (even though I have the right to reserve one of those weeks), and neither does any other owner. Marriott never gives someone the top points even though they charge others top points to stay there. The only people who can get prime weeks using points are people who borrow from the future or points owners who trade down. You can never trade like for like prime weeks, much less trade up.

 

[DanCali]

Im not going to convince you that skim won't affect you. You are not going to convince me that I can't skim Marriott. That wasn't the point of my first post. The point is that contrary to the overwhelming belief on TUG that Marriott is going to reap millions of points by skimming the legacy owners, I just don't see it happening in the real world. At least not for TUG members anyway. Every TUGGER who has posted about skim knows how to avoid it. They might not all be able to turn it around to their advantage but they won't lose on it.

Jim according to your definition, you may be skimming Marriott.

According to how most here view skim, you get skimmed the moment you convert to points. You cannot avoid it once you elect for points. It affects 100% of owners who convert to points.

But again, if we can't agree on definitions, we can't really have a fruitful discussion...

So instead of mentioning "skim" I'll address the issue you raised as to how Marriott will make it's millions by asking a few simple questions. And I won't mention skim even once...:

Do you agree that, to the best of our knowledge 5 weeks after the program launched) all owners who convert to points get less points (say around 9%-10% on average) than the average points in their season?

Now assume for a second that enrolled owners that convert to points trade only among themselves - trust owners just reserve trust inventory and no trust points are deposited. This doesn't change the argument below, but makes it easier to grasp the conclusion. So some people, like you, will vacation 7 days at OP and have a few poins left over for a weekend somewhere, some will blow all their points for 4 days in a Hawaii studio, etc.

Do you agree that, if Marriott gives each owner who converts to points less than the average points in their season and even if all owners use all their points (no points go unused,) there will be lots of inventory from weeks that converted left over systemwide? This is in fact a mathematical certainty. I cannot tell you how many weeks will be left over, since they could be Hawaii weeks or Branson weeks or partial weeks everywhere, but in terms of points the leftover inventory from converted weeks will be worth about 9%-10% of the points that were awarded to the owners who converted.

Assuming Marriott has the option to rent unused inventory, does this answer your concern how Marriott will make its millions or why they did what they did?

 

[jimf41]

Dan & Tombo,

I've done my best to explain my position and my belief that skim is really not a big consideration. So, I will agree to concede the argument. To agree that every point you made is right and every point I made is wrong.

On one condition.

Find 10 owners on TUG that are willing to say that in order to reserve the week that they want, any week at any resort that they own, that they will do it with points when the points that Marriott wants for that week are greater than the number of points that Marriott gave them to convert.

If you find these ten folks then skim is alive and well. If not, would you at least consider that maybe it's not such a big deal after-all?

It's midnight here on the East coast. I'll catch you guys in the morning with a fresh cup of coffee.

 

[DanCali]

Find 10 owners on TUG that are willing to say that in order to reserve the week that they want, any week at any resort that they own, that they will do it with points when the points that Marriott wants for that week are greater than the number of points that Marriott gave them to convert.

This doesn't make sense because there is no "home resort" once converted to points. You need to liberate yourself of that concept. Once you have points you use them however you want at any resort you want in any season you want.

You are not comparing apples to apples:

Week reservation = a particular resort in a particular season

Points reservation = any resort any season limited by the number of points you got.

Your 4225 points might be good for 2.5 Platinum weeks in Branson and they happen to be good for 8 days at some off weeks at Ocean Pointe. In fact, I bet you can even stay 7 days in the Gold Season and have some points left over. But the fact that OP was your home resort is irrelevant once you have those points because you gave up that option... and it doesn't change the fact that you should have gotten more points when you actually converted your week.

I've tried to explain this to you in over 10 different ways and have been unsuccessful . I'm sure Marriott wishes more people took your point of view...

P.S. You didn't answer any of my questions from the previous post. I did keep the word "skim" out of them so maybe we'll finally agree on something

 

[GeNioS]

In all honesty, because of how Marriott sold TS in the past, the most pleasant point system would to be to give people what they were sold and follow a model more like HGVC. HGVC has upped the points a bit at the newest resorts, but people do have enough points for the resorts that were in the system when they bought. .

This is exactly how I feel...I bought a small Wyndham last year and thought it was such a funny system, what with points and all...but you're exactly right...it is a great system (I'm assuming similar to HGVC). The points chart at the resorts aren't going to change. It might take more points to get into a unit at a newer resort (which makes sense because they are costing more to build), but the points I bought are always going to be able to get me what was available at the time I bought them.

It has always disturbed me that the rewards points keep getting devalued. I mean, why would a hotel that was one category suddenly become another category higher. I can understand that a newly built hotel with higher building costs could definitely be consider a higher category, but why would an existing hotel suddenly in one day just magically be a higher category. Inflation? Didn't Marriott sell me on the fact that I was paying for tomorrow's vacations in today's dollars?

And didn't Marriott tell me that "I'm going to be buying an appreciating asset that I'll be able to leave to my heirs" salespitch. I used to think that Marriott, although being dead wrong, really meant it (stupid me). But the skim to me, combined with the devaluation of rewards points, has convinced me they are trying (intentionally) to do the exact opposite. Marriott is trying to come up with ways to make me continually pay them more and more money and, if I don't, by the time I would ever pass these on there will be next to nothing left...oh yeah and they will have resold the part that isn't mine anymore to someone else (who will be writing this same post someday).

If you are one of those people who sees the value in this points program, let alone are buying additional points in the new system, congratulations. I always hope your vacations are wonderful and add some joy to your lives. But be forewarned. No matter how good you think the system is today, Marriott has shown time and time again that they are willing to devalue that which you purchased in the past. Why would you believe they wouldn't do that someday to the points you are buying today?

I assure you that in five to ten years from now Marriott will approach each and every one of you with another new and exciting, more flexible, program. And you will have to buy just a few more points to really make it work.

 

[pipet]

Why skim matters

Some people are annoyed that Marriott rolled out this exciting new program only to find out it was a ripoff for their situation. Then, they move on. No one has to enroll, or even if they do, no one has to convert to points.

I agree! It's true! We can all choose not to elect to convert our weeks to points, and thus we won't eat skim.

So, skim doesn't matter...

Except, we just don't know yet how much it matters. Owners are facing a lot of uncertainty, and not very many people are comfortable with that, especially when it's something that concerns a long-term financial commitment. Is all the chaos justified? I'd say definitely not all of it, but at the same time there are enough "real" problems to keep people very concerned and edgy.

How will future trading work out with II? This a huge and IMO legitimate concern. Clearly, points are the way of the future, but at the same time, the majority of weeks in the system belong to weeks owners. Salespeople, who obviously will say anything to make a sale, are inciting fears that II will dry up. Will II dry up? Will Marriott play heavy-handed with the II inventory? Are we really going to be gimped in our ability to make trades if we don't use the new point currency? Are point requests going to be filled before weeks requests? We probably won't know the answer to this for a long while, but most TS owners hope to be happy and healthy and traveling for more than the next year or two, so the long term matters.

Resale owners in particular need to consult their II crystal ball to decide by 12/31/10 what the future holds for them in 2020. That's kinda stinky. Developer owners risk facing a much larger buy-in cost. Of course, the opposite could be the case and there might be other buy-in periods or incentives, but again, there is the uncertainty.

Will Marriott choose the week that enrolled owners deposit in II, ala Starwood? The fact that another large TS system does this makes the possibility seem real. This would be a very big deal for people who enroll but prefer not to play in points. Can Marriott do this to unenrolled weeks? I think there would be challenges to this as I believe there were in the Starwood system, but I am not an expert.

Will booking at home resorts become more difficult? The rare fixed weeks are safe, but over time we all know Marriott became very generous in its seasons. Newport Coast has the awful plat season that is over half the year, and many HI owners have 1-50+. Even where there are somewhat more defined seasons, Marriott included weeks in the plat category that should have been classified as shoulder to increase profit. Marriott has said it will fairly divvy the weeks availability based on percent owners converting to points vs weeks owners. At this point I still believe they will do this, but Marriott has a lot of trust issues right now, and not everyone is convinced. Then there is the worry that Marriott can change the policy in the future.

Will we lose home resort advantage when it comes to room assignments? Will non-enrollees be treated as second class customers? Hopefully not, but again, most agree that points are the future, so changes could even come up in this area.

Even if you don't ever personally eat the skim by converting to points, the system is changing. Points are the new currency. To participate in the future currency, the anti-skim people will pay a cost that they consider unacceptable. I've seen several comments indicating that some are joining the system as "insurance." What will happen to those that don't buy the insurance? Maybe, it will turn out to be a 2.0 quake that no one can even feel... but what if it turns out to be a big one?

 

[tombo]

Dan & Tombo,

I've done my best to explain my position and my belief that skim is really not a big consideration. So, I will agree to concede the argument. To agree that every point you made is right and every point I made is wrong.

On one condition.

Find 10 owners on TUG that are willing to say that in order to reserve the week that they want, any week at any resort that they own, that they will do it with points when the points that Marriott wants for that week are greater than the number of points that Marriott gave them to convert.

If you find these ten folks then skim is alive and well. If not, would you at least consider that maybe it's not such a big deal after-all?

It's midnight here on the East coast. I'll catch you guys in the morning with a fresh cup of coffee.

Ridiculous argument. The points program wasn't designed to reserve home resorts (unless you do it for an additional week in a same year), you use points to exchange your home resort for other resorts. Since the points you receive for depositing your week is less than the average number of points required to trade into your season, the week you deposited was awarded less value than it was worth (everyone should receive the average minimum). You were skimmed, ripped off, charged a fee, or any other way you feel like describing it. Virtually every owner who deposits for points to exchange using points gets skimmed and has less points in their account than they should have been given for the week they deposited.

So I will give you 10 owners who were skimmed (received less points for their week deposited than marriott charges on average to stay in it) and still used points to exchange from their posts here on TUG: 1.Kelly and sean, 2 Suedonj, 3. pfrank4217, 4. ciscogizmo1, 5.sibeeriavol, 6.dolphin, 7.larue, 8.boca boy ,9. jimh, 10 Brian c, 11. puckmanfl, 12. y-ask, 13. brianc936, 14. kedler, 15. sparty, 16. carichard, 17.flyerbobcat, 18. dannybaker, 19. m61376, 20.jeffrey, 21 delicate arch, 22.hotcoffe, 23.dvc john, 24. cruz-in, 25. beverly........I quit at 25. Is that enough? That is just some of the people here on TUG who deposited their weeks for points and almost all (if not all) were skimmed and given less points for their deposit(s) than the average week was worth according to Marriott's charts.

Imagine how many people who don't know about TUG or the skim there are Marriott wide depositing their weeks for points and getting skimmed. It will be millions of points ending up to be Marriott's each year that should have gone to owners.

Your point that if no one deposits weeks for points then there is no skim is true, however most people who convert to points will want to use points to exchange. Every time one of them deposits their week, they lose points value from what they deposited, and Marriott gets those points. The average skim is 7% to 13% (it varies by resort) from what owners here showed on another thread. At your resort Ocean Pointe the average points needed for a 3 bed silver season is 4540, you only get 4225 points if you deposit losing 315 points of what you deposited each and every time you decide to use points. So your choices are to never use points to prevent being skimmed 315 points (why convert to points if you are never going to use them?), or deposit anyway to exchange using points and get skimmed. No matter what you end up trading for you should have had 315 more points in your account from your deposit than Marriott will give you.

Whether the skim is 7% or 15%, Marriott keeps all the points they skim and all unused/expired points (why should paid for points have an expiration date?). It is wrong and something every owner should be warned about.

P.S. You said put any point value on a week and you would show where someone is getting hurt. I said at your resort the average 3 bed silver week is worth 4540 points. All silver 3 bed owners have the option to reserve any silver week 3 bed week ath their home resort, so Marriott should charge 4540 points to reserve ANY silver week first come first served (give home resort an early reservation window), and Marriott should give EVERY silver week 3 bed owner 4540 points for depsoiting their week. Now that is fair and no one would be hurt. If Marriott had set up points that way (like most other points systems are) I would have gladly joined because that is fair to all.

 

[dougp26364]

Jim according to your definition, you may be skimming Marriott.

According to how most here view skim, you get skimmed the moment you convert to points. You cannot avoid it once you elect for points. It affects 100% of owners who convert to points.

This is really just symantics.

Overall, Marriott has a built in skim when owners convert to points. Much like a Vegas casino, for Marriott the truth lies in the law of large numers. A few will get them but, in the long run, Marriott is going to come out with an average profit in points.

On the other hand, those with a little knowledge will realize that there can be advantages with points. In the case of MPB, there are at least four weeks where the legacy week owner can "skim" Marriott. If you're willing to travel in September and, if you can reserve a week in September (just because it's listed doesn't mean it's available), then you come out ahead.